UUP: youthful, unified but playing catch up

Despite a more youthful and unified party conference marked only by the walk out of its only high profile dissident these days, David Burnside, the UUP may be condemned to waiting for the DUP to drop the ball in order to make up its recently lost ground, or so Mark Devenport believes.

  • Will

    Cllr Hamilton
    Its clear to see from your comments that your future lies clearly in teaching and certainly not in the political arena.

    I dont know, nor care, why Christopher Stalford has not run for office – that’s a matter for him, but of course his political career cant be as near its end as some other people’s are. Of course, you dont always have to be elected into these positions – you can be co-opted etc.

    Maybe he’ll tell us all on here if and when he does decide.

  • unionist_observer

    ball, not man perhaps Will.

    Maybe you’d like to direct questions to Cllr Hamilton rather than snide comments?

  • davidbrew

    Hang on UO, he did address Hamilton’s juvenile criticism of his spelling, and this from a man who doesn’t use capital letters or proper punctuation in his typekey id. Still good to se he was posting at 4.20 AM, no doubt after a late night marking exams. Who says teachers have a cushy life?

  • Christopher Stalford

    Councillor “clearly in need of counselling” Hamilton

    “I don’t think he’s had the guts to ever put his ‘head above the parapet’ and seek an electoral mandate and public endoresement for his ideas has he? Any notion why not?”

    I will take no lectures on lacking the courage to seek an electoral mandate from a man who only inherited his assembly seat due to the unfortunate demise of one of his own party members. Readers will of course remeber that Councillor Hamilton lacked the backbone to put himself forward for re-election in November 2003 so proud was he of his constituency record.

    As for why I have never put my name forward for election – it may have had something to do with the fact that in order to run for office you have to be 21 years old – I therefore did not qualify to run in 2003 or 2001.

  • davidbrew

    does this mean we can expect to see you debut next year Christopher?

  • Christopher Stalford

    I’m saying nothing….

  • Belfast Gonzo

    But you already have, have you not?

    I’m sure it was in one of the papers fairly recently, although I heard about it ummmm… a lot of months ago.

    If I mentioned Laganside, would that ring any bells?! It’s not still a secret is it?

    Come clean, Christopher!

  • unionist_observer

    Mr Stalford

    As I am sure you are well aware, there were other circumstances that prevented Mr Hamilton for putting his name forward to run as MLA. Had he been able to, I am quite sure Strangford would have three UUP MLAs, as Bob Little, a newcomer to politics was very unfortunate to miss out.

    Stalford is now using slugger as a platform from which to launch an election campaign, how very very sad.

  • Will

    unionist_observer
    The UUP got 29% of the vote in Strangford at the Assembly election, which is just over 2 quotas.

    Also from what I remember, the battle for the last seat was between the SDLP and Alliance so Mr Little wasnt even in the race at that stage. Hardly what I would describe as ‘unfortunate to miss out – yes unfortunate, unfortunate not to have persuaded more people to vote for him.

    I doubt if having Cllr Hamilton in the race would have made that substantial a difference. It seemed even he knew preferred the security of his real job to fighting a losing battle (and who can blame him for that).

  • WindsorRocker

    “If I mentioned Laganside, would that ring any bells?! It’s not still a secret is it?”

    Where is Laganside??

    There is a ward called Laganbank.

    If CS does run, then at least he can stick his head above the parapet unlike those of us whose political profile is limited to an anonymous cryptic sounding username on the net. (Myself included).

  • Will

    “There is a ward called Laganbank.”

    I think you’ll find there is a DEA called Laganbank. 😉

    I hope you all stand corrected!

  • Christopher Stalford

    Unionist Observer/Rebecca Black

    “As I am sure you are well aware, there were other circumstances that prevented Mr Hamilton for putting his name forward to run as MLA.”

    Presumably by other circumstances you mean he seen what way the wind was blowing in the constituency and bottled it.

    “Had he been able to, I am quite sure Strangford would have three UUP MLAs, as Bob Little, a newcomer to politics was very unfortunate to miss out.”

    If Bob Little couldn’t get elected with John Taylor and David McNarry as running mates, why would he have been elected with Tom Hamilton on the ticket. It just doesn’t make sense.

    “Stalford is now using slugger as a platform from which to launch an election campaign, how very very sad.”

    No I’m not. I’m using Slugger to respond to highly personalised and non-factual attacks carried out against me by a washed up Ulster Unionist councillor. What is sad however Rebecca, is that you should attempt to hide behind a psuedonym.

  • Christopher Stalford

    From Nicholas Whyte’s site:

    DUP 17,857 (47.9%, +20.2%) 3 seats Best result for DUP in Northern Ireland
    UUP 10,781 (28.9%, -0.3%) 2 seats
    SDLP 2,906 (7.8%, -1.2)
    Alliance 2,741 (7.4%, -4.8%) 1 seat
    SF 1,105 (3.0%, +1.6%)
    NIUP 576 (1.5%)
    PUP 540 (1.4%, -1.7%)
    Green 425 (1.1%, +0.6%)
    Ind 319 (0.9%)
    Electorate 66,308
    Votes cast 37,838 (57.1%); spoilt votes 588 (1.6%)
    Valid votes 37,250; quota 5,322

    Right enough Rebecca, the UUP came really close to three seats!

  • Michael Shilliday

    As you well know Stalford, first preference votes can have little impact on deciding the last seat in a 6 seat election. Perhaps if a coupple of hundred more DUP voters had carried down the list we would have 1 more unionist MLA now.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Michael

    Wrong. The fight for the last seat in Strangford was between the Alliance and the SDLP. There will always be 1 non-Unionist seat in Strangford. Look at the figures.

  • Christopher Stalford

    SDLP 7.8%
    APNI 7.4%
    SF/IRA 3.0%

    Approx. one vote in every five cast for a non-Unionist candidate = 1 non-Unionist seat.

  • Christopher Stalford

    “As you well know Stalford, first preference votes can have little impact on deciding the last seat in a 6 seat election.”

    Even if everyone is above quota on the first count Shilliday?…

  • Michael Shilliday

    And with more DUP transfers it would have been between Little and one of the others, he was eliminated just before the last seat was declared. There are 5.6 unionist quotas in Strangford on the last assembly election, more than enough for 6 unionist seats.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Not the case in Strangford, only 2 candiates were above quota on the 1st count.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Again wrong. Whrn Little was eliminated McNarry was elected. There were 2 UUP candidates waiting to be elected at the final stage, not one.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Which proves my point, lack of DUP transfers caused an Alliance seat!

  • Christopher Stalford

    I should know, I was there watching poor Bob Little waiting around in the vain hope that it would all work out for him. Alas….no!

    Would you care to address the point about nearly 1 in 5 voters in the constituency voting for non-Unionist candidates?

  • unionist_observer

    “If Bob Little couldn’t get elected with John Taylor and David McNarry as running mates, why would he have been elected with Tom Hamilton on the ticket. It just doesn’t make sense.”

    It makes perfect sense, Tom Hamilton has a much bigger profile in Strangford than Bob Little as a former Mayor of Ards and a former MLA.

    I stand by what I said, I think Tom Hamilton would have been elected had he stood, and Bob Little despite not having the profile of Hamilton was unlucky to miss out. Its not rocket science my dear duppers.

  • Christopher Stalford

    “Which proves my point, lack of DUP transfers caused an Alliance seat!”

    I’m sorry Michael, but that simply isn’t the case. Anyone with half an ounce of sense can see that there is always going to be 1 non-Unionist seat in the constituency. Transfers would not have altered that. However, maybe you should ask yourself why it is that DUP voters are so reluctant to transfer to the UUP rather than attacking them for not doing it.

    Standard UUP tactic: blame the voters for the election result.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Yes, there are 5.6 unionist quotas in Strangford, which are disparate between the Alliance SDLP and SF. If more DUP voters had carried down the list, 5.6 quotas is more than enough for 6 seats!

  • Michael Shilliday

    maybe you should ask yourself why it is that DUP voters are so reluctant to transfer to the UUP rather than attacking them for not doing it.

    Because DUP canvessers tell them not to? I know I was told not to vote UUP!

  • Christopher Stalford

    Unionist Observer/Rebecca Black

    “I stand by what I said, I think Tom Hamilton would have been elected had he stood, and Bob Little despite not having the profile of Hamilton was unlucky to miss out. Its not rocket science my dear duppers”

    So you think that Hamilton and Little are both stronger candidates than a man who represented the seat at Westminster for eighteen years then? Dream on Rebecca – Little was an abysmal candidate and Hamilton had the good wit to see what way the election was going to go – it’s as simple as that.

  • Christopher Stalford

    I’m off for my dinner – I’ll leave the Ulster Unionist Party’s answer to Sony and Cher – Michael and Rebecca to make their excuses for an appaling result in Strangford – sure why not offend the people who live on the Ards Penninsula again Rebecca, that’s bound to help.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Yes, there are 5.6 unionist quotas in Strangford, which are disparate between the Alliance SDLP and SF. If more DUP voters had carried down the list, 5.6 quotas is more than enough for 6 seats!

    Sorry, I ment to say the remaining .4 of a quota is disparate.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Do you now accept that 5.6 quotas is good enough for 6 seats with good transfering?

  • unionist_observer

    “So you think that Hamilton and Little are both stronger candidates than a man who represented the seat at Westminster for eighteen years then? Dream on Rebecca – Little was an abysmal candidate and Hamilton had the good wit to see what way the election was going to go – it’s as simple as that.”

    so simply you see things, I am not saying that either Hamilton or Little are better candidates than the Lord Kilclooney, nowhere near it, I’ll explain again for you….

    I reckon Bob Little was unlucky not to get elected as the third UUP MLA along with McNarry and Kilclooney. And if Tom Hamilton had of run with his experience in the area and profile I think he would almost certainly been elected along with McNarry and Kilclooney.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Back from dinner – not up to much, the lamb was too rare!

    So lets just get this straight Rebecca. You think Bob Little was a poor candidate – fair enough, we agree on that. You also seem to be suggesting that Hamilton was a dead cert if he had decided to run – could you tell us what level of vote Mr. Hamilton got at the 2001 council election?

    Do you really believe that Hamilton would have been the difference between 2 and 3 seats for the UUP? If you do, I’m afraid there really is no point in reasoning with you.

    It has been said that the period of denial for the Democratic Party lasted a fortnight after GWB stuffed Kerry – the Ulster Unionists clearly have yet to learn that denial is not a river in Egypt.

    Au revoir!

  • jonty

    i wonder if chris stalford will tell us if he would believe the words of a papist priest who witnessed acts of decommissioning by the IRA, or does he agree with his leader and the Free Ps who say the Church of Rome is deceitful and full of wickedness

  • Christopher Stalford

    Jonty

    I will believe my own eyes, an inventory and the eyewitness accounts. Now scuttle back under your stone and stop wasting time with such ludicrous questions.

  • jonty

    chris , so you will beleive the report of a papist? I thought your party leader said the church of rome is deceitful, so you dont beleive him then?

    nice to see youve given up on the event being filmed , when did the DUPes change that policy

  • jonty

    chris.
    will you commit yourself now to being against any move by your party entering an executive with SINN FEIN before the provos have been disbanded and this has been proven?

  • Will

    Michael
    To have had 3 unionist seats would have required transfers to have passed between candidates almost to a man.

    There is practically no way in the world to ensure that all voters transfer the way you want them to – human nature simply doesnt work that way.

    It also depends on the first preference tally – with Bob Little finishing below Kieran McCarthy it was always going to be a massive uphill struggle for him to take a seat because he would have to attract transfers at a higher rate than McCarthy to stand a chance. Perhaps a little better vote management between the UUP candidates would be a first step towards getting your much vaunted third seat before you start asking others to bail you out.

    Also that is all to be considered before you add in the other factors of PR. Votes from elected DUP candidates going to their unelected counterparts would not come at full value and diminish along the way (i think – but PR is beyone me a lot of the time).

    What I can say for sure however is that simplistic arguments such as you have used simply dont cut any ice.

    Jonty
    This may come of something as an earth-shattering development, but as part of wider measures to increase the verification and visibility of decommissioning I would be quite happy to take the word of a papist (sic). However, it wouldnt be his or her (could we have a nun down there?) word alone. It seems it will be part of a much wider package.

    This wider package again Jonty lets remember is much much more than your glorious David Trimble was ever able to deliver.

  • alex s

    let history judge Trimble

  • Davros

    The Interpretation of Cultures, 1973, Clifford Geertz. p 24.

    The besetting sin of interpretive approaches to anything—literature, dreams, symptoms, culture—is that they tend to resist, or to be permitted to resist, conceptual articulation and thus to escape systematic modes of assessment. You either grasp an interpretation or you do not, see the point of it or you do not, accept it or you do not. Imprisoned in the immediacy of its own detail, it is presented as self-validating, or, worse, as validated by the supposedly developed sensitivities of the person who presents it; any attempt to cast what it says in terms other than its own is regarded as a travesty—as, the anthropologist’s severest term of moral abuse, ethnocentric.

  • Will

    Alex
    “let history judge Trimble”

    I’m quite happy to let the electorate judge him.

  • davidbrew

    “let history judge Trimble”

    OK-history told me he was guilty

    “I know I was told not to vote UUP!”
    someone obviously had your best interests at heart then Michael. i don’t vote UUP and I feel much the better for it!

  • unionist_observer

    “Back from dinner – not up to much, the lamb was too rare!

    So lets just get this straight Rebecca. You think Bob Little was a poor candidate – fair enough, we agree on that. You also seem to be suggesting that Hamilton was a dead cert if he had decided to run – could you tell us what level of vote Mr. Hamilton got at the 2001 council election?

    Do you really believe that Hamilton would have been the difference between 2 and 3 seats for the UUP? If you do, I’m afraid there really is no point in reasoning with you.”

    I didn’t and don’t think Bob Little was/is a poor candidate, I think he will be an excellent candidate next time he runs. However it is undeniable that Tom Hamilton has a higher profile and is better known thoughout the constituency given that he used to be mayor of Ards and also given he used to be the MLA.

    Thus its only logical that someone with a higher profile will probably do better than someone without that sort of profile.

    *by the way, red meat is always nicer the rarer it is you uncultured sod!

  • jonty

    will
    if you are unfortunate to belive paisley, the church of rome is deceitful and evil and the presbyterians, COI, Methodists etc are corrupt because of the ecumenicalism.

    So who do you believe, the DUP leader or the Popes representatives?

  • Will

    Jonty,
    I’m not asking for Ian Paisley to convince me – I want the information that I can make up my own mind.

    It seems that this is what the DUP are working towards – giving unionists the opportunity to make up their own minds, not asking them to take everything on trust as Trimble did.

  • jonty

    will
    maybe you or some other dupe on this site will give the committment that wee chris stalford is afraid to give:

    will you commit yourself now to being against any move by your party entering an executive with SINN FEIN before the provos have been disbanded and this has been proven?

  • Peter Brown

    Jonty

    In the event that anyone in the DUP is prepared to give such a commitment will it be binding? Didn’t numerous prominents members of the UUP give a number of commitments about decommissioning but then ignore them when the time came?

  • jonty

    Peter, according to the DUPes on this board, they never break their promises

  • Peter Brown

    That’s Q1 answered but what about Q2?

  • jonty

    peter you seem obsessed with attacking and critizing the UUP

  • WindsorRocker

    “peter you seem obsessed with attacking and critizing the UUP”

    Jonty,

    you seem to be obsessed with Christopher Stalford (or rather his politics).

    Do you not want to discuss other threads with us on Slugger. Your attitude towards Chris comes close to playing the man not the ball IMO.

  • jonty

    sorry windsor,
    i didnt know wee stafford needed his DUPe friends
    to stick up for him

  • Michael Shilliday

    To have had 3 unionist seats would have required transfers to have passed between candidates almost to a man.

    Complete rubbish. 5.6 unionist quotas is all you need to look at! That does not allow for a certain non unionist seat, unless DUP voters don’t transfer to the UUP.

  • Peter Brown

    And you with attacking the DUP but at least I am objective and prepared to answer reasonable questions. I do not engage in North Korean style unquestioning adulation of the beloved leader and his policies but look at the evidence and make up my own mind – any chance of you answering he question now?

  • unionist_observer

    “I do not engage in North Korean style unquestioning adulation of the beloved leader and his policies but look at the evidence and make up my own mind”

    Aha! So THATs why you haven’t joined the duppers

  • Peter Brown

    UO let those who are without sin cast the first stone – its also why so many including you in the past have called on me to resign from the UUP!

  • unionist_observer

    I didn’t call on you to resign, I merely questioned your motives for remaining in the UUP.

  • Peter Brown

    Anyway after that slight diversion is there any chance of anyone answering the question? Or of UO jonty Michael Willowfirld etc joining in the discussion on the “overtures from uup” thread where you are all conspicuous by your absence….

  • Christopher Stalford

    “Complete rubbish. 5.6 unionist quotas is all you need to look at! That does not allow for a certain non unionist seat, unless DUP voters don’t transfer to the UUP.”

    Would you care to comment on the fact that nearly 1 in 5 people in Strangford didn’t vote for a Unionist party?

    Unionist Observer/Rebecca Black

    “*by the way, red meat is always nicer the rarer it is you uncultured sod!”

    Steak – yes. Lamb – no. Then again why does the idea of you preferring to suck the blood out of your dinner not surprise me?

  • Christopher Stalford

    7496 non-Unionist votes in November 2003 = 1.4 non Unionist quotas.

    Now for goodness sake Michael, stop talking rubbish!

  • unionist_observer

    “Steak – yes. Lamb – no. Then again why does the idea of you preferring to suck the blood out of your dinner not surprise me?”

    i’m not even going to ask.

    *rare lamb is nice, clearly you haven’t spent enough time out of NI.

  • Will

    U-O/Rebecca Black
    “rare lamb is nice, clearly you haven’t spent enough time out of NI.”

    Please tell me how on earth someone’s travel experiences make an imact on whether they like their lamb rare or not.

    Care to answer the points, and what about giving your opinion on McMichael and Ervine being courted to join the UUP – the silence on this is deafening.

  • unionist_observer

    as I posted on the relevant thread Will, I have been out of NI since the summer so I don’t know anything about it.

    If one has travelled a bit, you tend to develop different tastes as you try different things, whereas a trademark of NI men is that they are the very “meat and two veg” type – NI men tend not to travel because they tend to be quite insular.

  • Will

    U_O
    “NI men tend not to travel because they tend to be quite insular.”

    And if I were being unkind – students who seem to think themselves above others often tend to make sweeping generalisations about other people without knowing any of the facts.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Rebecca Black

    “clearly you haven’t spent enough time out of NI.”

    Places I have been in the last four years:

    France
    Spain
    Monaco
    Italy
    Switzerland
    Germany
    Poland
    Belgium
    The Netherlands
    Sweden
    Norway
    Finland
    Denmark
    Czech Republic
    Luxembourg
    Hungary

    last, but by no means least The Vatican City! (although not on the look out for an arms inspector!)

    Just because you jump on the train to Dublin to go to college doesn’t make you an international jet-setter! Neither does the fact that you like your lamb rare, now wind your neck in!

  • Christopher Stalford

    Oh yes, I almost forgot – the Free State!

  • Michael Shilliday

    Would you care to comment on the fact that nearly 1 in 5 people in Strangford didn’t vote for a Unionist party?

    No, because it is not relevant! There are 5.6 Unionist quotas in Strangford. Also there are 5.1 in Lagan Valley, which makes DonaldsonÂ’s vote greedy position all the more lamentable. I loved his blatent lie on the East Wing “I had NO idea 14000 people were going to vote for me!” When I found out they wern’t splitting the vote my guess was 9000, how wrong I was.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Wakey wakey!

    7496 non-Unionist votes in November 2003 = 1.4 non Unionist quotas.

    Care to comment Michael?

  • Christopher Stalford

    “how wrong I was.”

    It’s becoming something of a habit!

  • Michael Shilliday

    Very droll

    The 1.4 Non unionists donÂ’t matter! Those votes are split between SF, APNI and SDLP, not likely to transfer between each other effectively enough, except if SF poll close enough to a full quota (very unlikely). The 5.6 quotas can easily be brought up to 6 seats if DUP voters were to transfer better!

    Now please accept that your party cost unionism a seat in Strangford.

  • unionist_observer

    “Places I have been in the last four years:

    France
    Spain
    Monaco
    Italy
    Switzerland
    Germany
    Poland
    Belgium
    The Netherlands
    Sweden
    Norway
    Finland
    Denmark
    Czech Republic
    Luxembourg
    Hungary

    last, but by no means least The Vatican City! (although not on the look out for an arms inspector!)”

    and on the robinsons expenses probably – at least that might explain where on earth all that money they claimed went!

  • jonty

    Maybe Chris can tell us if the robinsons are claiming for one or two london properties? or doesnt he know that either

  • Peter Brown

    jonty maybe when you answer other people’s questions they will answer yours….

  • Christopher Stalford

    “The 1.4 Non unionists don’t matter!”

    1.4 QUOTAS = NO SEAT

    0.6 QUOTAS = SAFE UNIONIST SEAT

    What a moron!

  • Christopher Stalford

    Rebecca Black

    I would be careful if I were you, you’re veering off into the realm of libel! Unsurprising that you should be prepared to put a face to your ridiculous comments.

    Gutless coward.

  • Christopher Stalford

    change to “not to put a face to…”