A love of the land has no price…

THE Irish News yesterday reported that the Orange Order is linked to the Ulster Land & Property Company (motto “Ulster is being sold, help us buy it”), which was founded to prevent “property falling into nationalist hands”. AFAIK, there is still no law to prevent refusals to sell land or property to a buyer based on that person’s (perceived) religion in Northern Ireland.

Barry McCaffrey writes: [A] letter written by Orange Order Grand Master Robert Saulters contradicts the order’s denial that it is linked to the ULPC.

In the letter dated February 4 2002, Mr Saulters wrote to Orangemen, urging financial support for the company.

The letter, written on Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland headed paper and marked ‘confidential’, states: “You will recall that last year we had to postpone a major conference on the expansion of the ULPC.

“You will also recall at that time I referred to your invitation to attend as one of the most important letters I have written as Grand Master.”

In the letter Mr Saulters confirms that the ULPC had bought property worth more that £1m since its formation, claiming the purchases had “helped to build confidence in Protestant communities”.

He wrote that the order hoped to have an additional five per cent of its members subscribe to the ULPC by July 12 2002, adding: “The strategic importance of achieving this goal cannot be over emphasised.”

While Mr Saulters was unavailable for comment yesterday, an order spokesman defended the links to the ULPC.

“The letter was simply the Grand Master trying to recruit more subscribers for ULPC because he thinks it is something Orangemen might be interested in. The more subscribers there are, the more viable it is,” he said.

The spokesman denied that ULPC had been set up to stop nationalists acquiring land and added: “It is clearly there to promote Protestant culture and community but I can’t imagine it would base its loans criteria on preventing nationalists from buying land.”

  • Fraggle

    Are they the ones who own the derelict building with the black and white stripes and NOT FOR SALE sign on the lower ormeau road?

  • StrayToaster

    I think, Mr. Gonzo, there is still no law to prevent refusals to sell land or property to a buyer based on that person’s (perceived) religion in Northern Ireland is being rather mischievous.

    I hope no such law ever exists. And not for the obvious reason. If I don’t want to sell something to someone, I don’t want to sell it to them. Maybe I don’t like their hair, their choice of newspaper, their perfume, their blogging style. Maybe I am in a grumpy mood.

    Discrimination is bad, m’kay? This isn’t discrimination, although I understand that that would be some people’s reason for not selling to someone else. Even so, there should be no law forcing someone to sell. Hell, if they turn down a good price, then they are dumb, regardless of who is offering the wonga. Legitimate wonga, of course.

  • Vera

    In the past such associations were formed in the US to prevent houses in “white” neighborhoods from being sold to blacks. Perhaps they still are in some places, but you never hear about them anymore. Normal decent people are of course horrified by such actions and refuse to be a part of them. Maybe is shouldn’t be illegal, but it definitely is immoral.

    As an American, the fact that the Orange Order is involved in something like this just solidifies the idea many of us have that OO=KKK.

  • Davros

    AFAIK there are properties in whose deeds are stipulations that they can only be sold or passed to
    a specified “side” – land that can only be owned by Roman Catholics or Protestants.

    As the AOH (USA) is ethno-racist, I don’t really think people in the USA are in a position to pass comment Vera.

    Land is an emotive issue. Very Gendered.

  • queens_unionist

    IMPO it is up to the land owner whom he/she sells it to.
    It is quite obvious in ares that land is being eat up as quickly as it goes on the market by ordinary nationlist people. People who you would normally think would not have the means of obtaning this land and so the are quickly changes ‘colour’. I dont know whether or not there are any puppet masters pulling the strings here but who knows?!

    Personal choice should be preserved!
    And groups allowed to try and maintain the protestant culture+community in NI. After all we want multi-culture not UNI-culture

  • ulsterman

    I know for a fact this is true. Quite rightly so. Right up to the present day the Ulster Protestant has been butchered by the enemies of Ulster. We are not going to stand idly by and watch Protestant land fall into Papist hands.

    Not one inch.Not one blade of grass.

    No Surrender ever.

    God Save The Queen.

  • Vera

    Davros,
    What has the AOH got to do with it? For one thing I don’t think they go around buying up land in Irish neighborhoods in the U.S. and for another thing they’re hardly representative of Americans. Most Americans wouldn’t even know the AOH exsisted if it wasn’t for the NY St. Patrick’s Day Parade.

    I can comment all I like, though it’s certainly up to you whether you listen to me. 🙂

    All I’m saying is that Unionism (and Orangeism in particular) has a serious image problem, and stuff like this is why. Twenty, heck, even ten years ago we thought y’all were the good guys, but you’ve basicly squandered all the good will you built up as victims of the IRA with stuff like this and Holy Cross. People always see events through the lense of their own history, so we can’t help equating certain recent actions in N.I. with events in our own history that we are deeply ashamed of and feeling outrage at them.

    Off topic: Davros, does your name come from ASOIAF?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “It is quite obvious in ares that land is being eat up as quickly as it goes on the market by ordinary nationlist people. People who you would normally think would not have the means of obtaning this land and so the are quickly changes ‘colour'”

    Good god is that a serious comment or a wind up from someone.

  • Dec

    I’ll sume Queens_Unionist isn’t majoring in English.

  • willowfield

    According to the Equality Commission, the Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998, makes it:

    … unlawful for anyone selling or managing property or premises to discriminate on grounds of religious belief and/or political opinion. For example, it would be unlawful for a landlord to refuse to rent to or to evict someone on the basis of their religion or political opinion.
    Similarly, anyone selling land or premises, either by advertisement or through an estate agent, may not discriminate either on the terms on
    which land or premises are offered, or by refusing to sell to someone on the basis of religion or political opinion. There are some exceptions to these provisions, for example, they do not apply to people who are renting out part of their own home in which they live or premises
    which come within the legal definition of ‘small premises’.

  • fair_deal

    Vera

    In the USA there are a range of ethnic organisations that enable their community to access capital usually for business capital? Are they all equivalents of the KKK?

  • Will

    willowfield
    The Act you talk of may well do that, and you could introduce all the laws you want, but how do you actually prove that person A didnt sell to person B because of their religion.

    You could claim it was because you didnt like their hairstyle – would that be illegal and how could you prove that wasnt the reason you didnt sell. A law like that would never work and would never be enforcable in the vast majority of cases because it would be impossible to prove.

    Vera,
    How exactly do you claim that the Orange Order was affected by the Holy Cross dispute? It was nothing to do with the order. Surely you wouldnt just be plucking random incidents out of the air in order to justify your initial poor argument?

  • ShayPaul

    WF

    Interesting that legal text you dug out, thanks for that.

    Davros

    How does this square with the deeds of some land you mentioned earlier ?

  • Vera

    fair deal,
    If they are simply to provide capitol for business, then no. If they are specifically to keep property in certain areas from changing “color” then yes.

    Will,
    I was commenting on it as part of the more general immage problem unionism has lately.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Everyone else in the free world with sufficient means at their disposal is allowed to purchase property unless of course they just happen to be Orangemen. This is a non-story.

    What a great shame the bold Michelle (who if rumours are to be believed is about to get de-selected as the Provo candidate for F&ST) did not open her more than ample mouth when scores of Protestants were being driven from the border area by her fellow-travellers in the republican movement.

  • chunkyguy

    the bad image the orange order has of being a reactive anti-catholic organisation will find support with articles like this- how can this type of activity be any good as it just increases divisions even further- I know if i had property to sell -I wouldnt be asking their religon I would be asking them how much money they have?

  • Christopher Stalford

    “helped to build confidence in Protestant communities”

    Heaven forbid!

  • ShayPaul

    Of course the attitudes and deceit revealed here by the Grand Master of the Orange order are scandalous.

    Who now could claim that this is anything other than a sectarian secret society that should have died out naturally many centuries ago?

    Culture … pffff

  • Christopher Stalford

    ShayProvo

    “secret society”

    Nothing very secret about parading through the streets in July and August.

    “are scandalous”

    Why? Lots of organisations with money at their disposal invest it in property. Presumably their was nothing scandolous about the Provo campaign of ethnic cleansing that has gone on for the last thirty-five years and still does today, as that never seemed to raise your hackles quite so much.

  • Christopher Stalford

    “Culture … pffff”

    Of course we are a sub-culture, outside the “volk”, a damnable evil sub-species of Anglo-Saxon Protestants, that’s what you really think isn’t it?

    And I thought only the loyal orders were bigoted…

  • ShayPaul

    Salford,

    1. Withdraw that slanderous name calling !

    2. Secret – read the article and explain what secret means.

    3. Deceit of this order is scandalous – saying publicly that links do not exist and circulating confidential memos to the contrary is nothing but scandalous – justify that.

  • Hektor Bim

    In the US, many houses used to have private covenants that restricted their sale to white persons and forbade colored people from spending more than one night on the property, “except as servants”. These were rightly ruled illegal and unenforceable.

    This attitude is immoral and paranoid and should be condemned. The fact that the Orange Order supports and encourages this is a cause for condemnation of the Orange Order, as is the contemptible need for the OO to transparently lie about it. I think a better comparison to the American situation would be to compare the Orange Order to the White Citizen’s Councils, which winked at the extremists and provided political cover for them, much as the OO provides political cover and tacit support for organizations like the ULPC. Just because Catholics live somewhere doesn’t mean Protestants can’t live somewhere too.

    This ridiculous zero-sum notion of progress is at the heart of many of the problems in NI, whichever community espouses them.

  • ShayPaul

    As for your ethnic ranting I have no problem with my fellow men be they green orange black or yellow. I have no sectarian hatred towards catholics protestants muslims jews or others. I believe in one tribe .. humanity.

    But I will not accept OO supremacy crap and the deceit and tactics revealed by this article are scanadlous

    Have you not enough decency left to see that ?

  • Christopher Stalford

    Shay

    Firstly learn how to spell – my name is Stalford.

    Secondly, why would any organisation that is seeking subscription for a proerty syndicate amongst its members actually need to go public with it? It’s hard to escape the conclusion that the only objection you have is that you don’t want to see Orangemen buying property – are you sure it’s the OO thats being exclusionary (not a real word, I know) in its actions?

    Finally, a property fund can be free-standing and another seperate body i.e. the OO can encourage its members to subscribe to it. I can urge people to invest in Vodafone, does that now mean that I am linked to them in some way? Of course not.

  • ShayPaul

    Stalford

    Can you justify any of the above statements ?

    Of course not.

    May I suggest that you play by the rules of slugger:

    Play the ball not the man.

    As for culture I propose that you crawl back into the primeval culture and grow a brain then come back for a debate with the big boys.

  • ShayPaul

    Firstly learn how to spell – my name is Stalford.

    Secondly, why would any organisation that is seeking subscription for a proerty syndicate

    OOPS -didn’t last long the spelling lesson

  • Christopher Stalford

    HA HA

  • Christopher Stalford

    “As for culture I propose that you crawl back into the primeval culture and grow a brain then come back for a debate with the big boys.”

    LOL @ Shay! Try not to throw your rattle out of the pram!

  • ShayPaul

    Like to comment on the attitude of the OO on this thread or are you going to hide behind drivel unto we get bored ?

  • Christopher Stalford

    Well, is your objection to the fact that the people buying the property through this fund happen to be Orangemen or is it not? Make up your mind.

    It’s not anti-Catholic for Prods to buy land you know – unless you want to change that…

  • ShayPaul

    Read the article and comment on the attitude of the OO, saying one thing in public and the opposite internally.

  • Christopher Stalford

    I assume your objection is based upon the reference to building confidence in the Protestant community. Lord knows, we couldn’t have that could we Shay?

  • Christopher Stalford

    Maybe Shay, you would care to offer an opinion on an article which featured recently in the South Belfast News, in which a Sinn Fein politician was quoted as welcoming the building of “new Catholic houses” in the Lower Ormeau area.

  • ShayPaul

    Here it is on nuzhound :

    article

    Now justify the attitudes of the headman of the OO.

    Justify his public statements versus the facts.

    Justify the sectarian nature of the actions.

  • ShayPaul

    Stalford

    Cut the whataboutery and answer the questions on this thread.

    You’ve already embarrassed yourself sufficiently with your ridiculous unjustified attitude earlier.

  • ShayPaul

    Haven’t seen that article, if that’s what he said I condemn that sort of sectarian crap, always have done and always will do.

  • Christopher Stalford

    When you answer my questions, I shall answer yours.

    1. Is it your contention that because the people invloved in this syndicate happen to be Orangemen, then it represents some sort of anti-Catholic plot?

    2. Do you consider Orangeism to be a “sub-culture”, as evidence in your pfff… comment?

    3. Would you care to offer an opinion of the comments of the South Belfast Sinn Feiner?

    4. Why would you assume that I have to “justify” the actions of others?

  • ShayPaul

    Answers :

    1. No the documents make it clear what they are up to.
    2. No but these actions are not cultural.
    3. Already done that.
    4. Crawl away then.

  • Christopher Stalford

    “We do not deny that the company exists, nor that Orangemen are involved in it, but what individual members get up to privately is not really our business, provided it remains true to the basic principles of the organisation.”

    And more recently Bobby Saulters wrote a letter urging people to support an independent property fund with no formal links to the Orange Institution. What exactly has changed from the original position? Nothing.

    I repeat, this is a non-story. It is hard to escape the conclusion that the objections of the Irish “Pro Fide et Patria” News are based upon nothing more that the fact that the people involved are Orangemen. That also appears to be your principal bone of contention.

  • Christopher Stalford

    “No but these actions are not cultural”

    Who appointed you the Commissar for Culture? What gives you the right to dismiss the traditions of thousands of people in such a trite and off-hand manner. I repeat my earlier contention that you think of Orangeism as a “sub-culture”. You have condemned yourself out of your own mouth.

  • ShayPaul

    The Orange Order is being challenged to explain its links to a company founded to prevent “property falling into nationalist hands”.

    An internal Orange Order letter, obtained by the Irish News, appears to contradict the order’s denial last year that it was directly linked to the controversial Ulster Land & Property Company (ULPC).

    While there is nothing to suggest that the ULPC has acted illegally, concerns have been raised over claims that it was formed to prevent nationalists acquiring land.

    According to a ULPC document, also obtained by the Irish News and marked “strictly confidential”, it bought 16 properties totalling £1,458,500 between 1995 and 2002. It also states that it plans to buy more than £5m of property by 2005.

    Its motto is “Ulster is being sold, help us buy it”.

    In March last year an Orange Order spokesman denied any official ties to the ULPC, saying: “We do not deny that the company exists, nor that Orangemen are involved in it, but what individual members get up to privately is not really our business, provided it remains true to the basic principles of the organisation.”

    However, a letter written by Orange Order Grand Master Robert Saulters contradicts the order’s denial that it is linked to the ULPC.

    In the letter dated February 4 2002, Mr Saulters wrote to Orangemen, urging financial support for the company.

    The letter, written on Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland headed paper and marked ‘confidential’, states: “You will recall that last year we had to postpone a major conference on the expansion of the ULPC.

    “You will also recall at that time I referred to your invitation to attend as one of the most important letters I have written as Grand Master.”

    In the letter Mr Saulters confirms that the ULPC had bought property worth more that £1m since its formation, claiming the purchases had “helped to build confidence in Protestant communities”.

    He wrote that the order hoped to have an additional five% of its members subscribe to the ULPC by July 12 2002, adding: “The strategic importance of achieving this goal cannot be over emphasised.”

    While Mr Saulters was unavailable for comment yesterday (Wednesday), an order spokesman defended the links to the ULPC.

    “The letter was simply the Grand Master trying to recruit more subscribers for ULPC because he thinks it is something Orangemen might be interested in. The more subscribers there are, the more viable it is,” he said.

    The spokesman denied that ULPC had been set up to stop nationalists acquiring land and added: “It is clearly there to promote Protestant culture and community but I can’t imagine it would base its loans criteria on preventing nationalists from buying land.”

  • Super Freak

    I am amazed that such a firm exists in this day and age. This is a completely unacceptable development and I am shocked that Unionists are trying to justify it by using the IRA.

  • ShayPaul

    The actions of the OO here are deceitful and in complete contradiction with their public declarations. You can call these actions a lot of things but culture is not one option.

    Now will you answer my questions rather than spouting slanderous claims about my attitudes to others.

  • Mark McGregor

    An old one

    I’d be more concerned if this company run by Orangemen for Orangemen to prevent Catholics buying land benefits from charitable status via its links with Grand Lodge.

    Are we assisting in paying for this ‘cultural’ land grab?

  • Henry94

    If they are collecting funds to by property at the going market rate then I don’t see it as a problem for anyone else. It’s just a stupid investment strategy.

    But if vendors are turning down higher bids in order to sell to the bigots then it is a clear case of discrimination and would have to be investigated.

    In reality not many vendors would be that stupid.

  • Mark McGregor

    Sorry link

  • Christopher Stalford

    You can highlight all you like from a spurious Irish News article. It does not alter the fundamental truth that nothing has changed.

    1. There is no proof of a link between the ULPC and the GOLI.

    2. Individual members of the ULPC MAY be members of the OO, but then again they MAY NOT.

    3. Nowhere in the “secret documents” does it say the aime of the ULPC is to stop land from “falling into Nationalist hands” – those are the words of the Irish News.

    4. Because Bobby Saulters urged people to support the ULPC does not mean that it is exclusively an Orange Order group. As I have already pointed out, I can urge people to invest their money in Vodafone, it doesn’t mean I am formally linked to them.

    I think Shay you are choosing to see conspiracy where ther is none. Read the article closely and carefully, you will see the Irish News cannot provide one scrap of evidence to justify their assertions.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Henry

    Maybe you could tell me are Provo murderers bigots?

  • ShayPaul

    It wont wash.

    Explain why he denied it in public and sent contradictory confidential letters in private.

    Explain the real position of the OO with regards to ULPC.

    Explain the cultural ethos here.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Denied what?

    He said there was no link between the OO and the ULPC and there is not. That doesn’t stop him from urging people to support it. They are entitled to do whatever they want with their money.

    “Explain the real position of the OO with regards to ULPC.”

    I just have.

    “Explain the cultural ethos here.”

    Presumably the ethos is one of making money out of it.

  • Davros

    Wow! This thread exploded while I was having my siesta 🙂

    Let me be clear before I answer some questions put my way- as I already pointed out on another thread before this issue got it’s own thread, I think this is damaging for the Orange Order.

    Shay – Not a legal expert, I assume that these sorts of terms in deeds would be covered by “here are some exceptions to these provisions,

    Vera- What has the AOH(US) to do with it ? I’m tired of Americans with far more for which they should be ashamed pointing the finger including
    Ned McGinley. We have more important things to worry about here than what a nation that is dragging us towards WWIII and has just re-elected a monster thinks about the Orange Order. If your nation would clean up it’s own mess rather than ……..

    Territoriality and dominance of area is a huge issue. For myself it has been made worse by the approach since the AIA.

    Those on the nationalist side scandalised should realise that they have a part to play in this – trumpeting “the Greening of the West” and labelling areas “nationalist areas” has reinforced the perception among some that “Brits Out ” means there is to be no place for the Ulster Protestant community. Attempts to drive small farmers off their lands along the borders, pressure on areas like Glenbryn, Torrens, Cluan place.

    This is a manifestation of the insecurity felt by many in the unionist community.

    Another area worth considering is that territoriality became part of the masculine image of Nationalism, a macho thing.

  • ShayPaul

    He said there was no link between the OO and the ULPC and there is not. That doesn’t stop him from urging people to support it. They are entitled to do whatever they want with their money.

    No he is the Grand Master and he uses headed paper and indicates the letter as confidential :

    In March last year an Orange Order spokesman denied any official ties to the ULPC, saying: “We do not deny that the company exists, nor that Orangemen are involved in it, but what individual members get up to privately is not really our business, provided it remains true to the basic principles of the organisation.”

    However, a letter written by Orange Order Grand Master Robert Saulters contradicts the order’s denial that it is linked to the ULPC.

    In the letter dated February 4 2002, Mr Saulters wrote to Orangemen, urging financial support for the company.

    The letter, written on Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland headed paper and marked ‘confidential’, states: “You will recall that last year we had to postpone a major conference on the expansion of the ULPC.

    “You will also recall at that time I referred to your invitation to attend as one of the most important letters I have written as Grand Master.”

    In the letter Mr Saulters confirms that the ULPC had bought property worth more that £1m since its formation, claiming the purchases had “helped to build confidence in Protestant communities”.

    This is clearly not private business but official policy.

    You can squirm all you want, this is scandalous behavior and you haven’t got the courage to admit it.

    Where is your honour man.

  • Mark McGregor

    ‘He said there was no link between the OO and the ULPC and there is not.’

    So why were the standing orders to be sent directly to GOLI?

    Does this company claim charitable status for tax purposes?

  • ShayPaul

    Davros

    Let me be clear before I answer some questions put my way- as I already pointed out on another thread before this issue got it’s own thread, I think this is damaging for the Orange Order.

    Have to be clearer davros – do you condone this ?

  • Christopher Stalford

    “Those on the nationalist side scandalised should realise that they have a part to play in this – trumpeting “the Greening of the West” and labelling areas “nationalist areas” has reinforced the perception among some that “Brits Out ” means there is to be no place for the Ulster Protestant community. Attempts to drive small farmers off their lands along the borders, pressure on areas like Glenbryn, Torrens, Cluan place.”

    Excellent point.

  • ShayPaul

    No it’s whataboutery, answer the questions Stalford, rather than clinging to straws thrown by davros.

  • Christopher Stalford

    “In the letter dated February 4 2002, Mr Saulters wrote to Orangemen, urging financial support for the company.”

    Yes, I have never denied that. He can urge people to invest if he wishes, in whatever he wants.

    “Where is your honour man.(sic)”

    I have enough honour not to condemn thousands of people as a sub-culture, you sanctimonious little hypocrite.

  • Mark McGregor

    I can’t find them in any form listed with companies house and I can’t believe no journalist has tried to go down the road of proving the story one way or the other. This has been around for ages and it’s easily resolved. They’ll either be listed as a company in some form or hiding behind the charities legislation in the North and linked fully to GOLI. Sort it out someone!

  • Christopher Stalford

    I can’t help but notice Shay, you don’t condemn the events described by Davros.

  • ShayPaul

    Well your dishonour knows no limits.

    I’ll leave it at that, you’ve embarrassed yourself enough.

    Have a nice weekend.

  • Christopher Stalford

    “Well your dishonour knows no limits”

    HA HA HA! Cheerio then!

  • Mark McGregor

    Chris,

    Care to address my points on tax status? You seem in the know.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Mark

    I know no more tha that which is in the article. I am a member of the OO, but not the ULPC.

  • Davros

    I wasn’t throwing straws Shay, I was looking at factors that have led us to where we are. That’s what I do in my course.

    I’m not taking a judgemental position on this as I want to try and see it impartially, although if you read my post on the previous thread you should be able to work out where I stand.

  • Mark McGregor

    Does the OO include the UPLC in its accounts? Do the investments in property, donations and profits from sales attract tax exemption via an association with GOLI?

    If not we can move on to FSA regulations.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Mark

    I don’t know the answers to your questions.

  • Christopher Stalford

    I have to go now – my dinner is waiting – and just when I was enjoying it!

    Au revoir!

  • Alan2

    I would just like to point out that the Orange Order encourages members to use the Ulster Federation Of Credit Unions similar to the above property scheme but as in the above it is not officially linked to the Institution. I think it is plain to see that the Order has many members involved in both schemes but they are not owned and run by the Order.

  • Mark McGregor

    Just as well you don’t Christopher. I suspect that whatever the truth UPLC will be found if investigated fully to be breaking the law in the complex field of financial investments, charities and tax. Maybe a job for the ARA?

  • Mark McGregor

    Alan,

    The tax status and financial situation of the UFCU is a matter of public record. I believe they even have a regulator. Credit Unions are commendable endeavours.

    The UPLC’s status is presently hidden.

  • Henry94

    Christopher

    Maybe you could tell me are Provo murderers bigots?

    Maybe you could tell me why you have choosen to raise that question in a discussion about buying land? Is it relevent in some way I have missed or is it just a kind of knee-jerk respose to an argument you don’t have a rational answer to.

    Or is it that you object to my using the word bigot in relation to people who are buying land to stop Catholics buying it. If you have another word for that I’d like to hear it.

  • Mark McGregor

    I can’t find their employment returns. That gives a big hint at their status. Though of course I’ll do all the work instead of the ‘sources’ and ‘leaked letter’ journos at the IN.

    Pathetic. Journalists have rerun this story instead of doing work on it and finding the truth.

  • ulsterman

    As long as Ulster Protestants can hold on to their land while buying up Papist land at the same time I dont think we will care where the money comes from.

    The Pope and all the enemies of Ulster are waiting to destroy our Ulster Protestant Nation. We must be ever vigilant. Rome works in mysterious ways.

    The IRA murder campaign along the border was ethnic cleansing as they murdered innocent young Protestants who would have inherited the family farm. It is up to us Loyalists to club together and make sure that Papists are stopped at every opportunity. We must ensure the hard fought land of our forefathers forever remains Protestant.

    Protestants should beware so called kind Papist neighbours. Those neighbours have been sent by Rome to de-stabilse our new nation.

    Ever vigilant, ever defensive,

    The future is bright,

    God Save The Queen.

  • Millie

    My word, it’s like the plantation all over again…

  • Mark McGregor

    Millie,

    It’s not that important. Tax fraud inspired by religious bias at worst.

  • Davros

    Aye, small potatoes compared to smuggling ciggies and diesel.

  • Mark McGregor

    Sad isn’t it Davros. All those allegations and a small army of partially employed ‘war’ reporters can’t sort wheat from chaff on a two year old story about the OO, sectarian land deals and tax (raised by me today). They never seemed to properly investigate anything else so why do I expect revelations from journalists beyond the latest padded press release now?

  • Davros

    We don’t live in a normal society Mark.
    And to be fair, there are bigger or more sensational stories to pursue. SF got some positive press today – well said about the gaming machines. They should all be banned IMO.
    Seen page 32 if the Irish News ? WOW. Blew me away.
    Good Letter from Ms de Brún as well.

  • ShayPaul

    We don’t live in a normal society Mark.

    We’ve known that since 1922 Davros, and most of the world would agree with you.

    This land grab scandal with the OO shows that some are still unable to overcome their fundamental sectarianism. I find that very sad.

    I do not think that you can airbrush that away by saying :

    And to be fair, there are bigger or more sensational stories to pursue.

    It is after all the object of the thread.

  • Davros

    Shay: I do not think that you can airbrush that away

    With the best will in the world, up yours Shay.

    I was addressing Mark’s point below about the media –
    Mark: All those allegations and a small army of partially employed ‘war’ reporters can’t sort wheat from chaff on a two year old story about the OO, sectarian land deals and tax

    with –

    Davros: And to be fair, there are bigger or more sensational stories to pursue.

  • Davros

    p.s. and I was after all the first person – on a different thread – to even raise the issue on Slugger.

  • ShayPaul

    With the best will in the world, up yours Shay.

    Well that’s a really positive contribution to debate, I expected better from you,

    sincerely disappointed

  • Davros

    What did you expect when you twisted my reply to Mark ? or should I e mail you explanations, in picture form, for my posts ?

  • ShayPaul

    Rubbish Davros your smoke and mirrors fool no one, and now your manners leave to be desired.

    Will you clearly condemn the attitudes and duplicity of the orange order here, rather than hide behind oblique references to other threads.

    Yes or No ?

  • Davros

    Shay – I’m not playing your silly games 🙂

    Run along little man.

  • ShayPaul

    sad

  • Cahal

    I have struggled to find some justfication for the existance of this group.

    a) they are buying land to build places to celebrate Scotch-Irish culture?
    b) they are buying land to ….. I have no idea.

    Can somebody who understands this please tell me, in less than 100 words, without using the word IRA, why they are buying the land.

    If there is something sectarian going on, surely they can’t buy enough land to make a real difference in terms of who owns what percentage. Also, who cares if the land is owned by prods or catholics. What difference does it make. How is it possible to collectively increase the ‘confidence’ of nearly one million people by buying a couple of farms somewhere in antrim???????

    If it is purely a business thing, and they all happen to be Unionists, how do they plan to make money. Surely they will not want to resell the land to Catholics. Or will they agree to rent it to Catholics, or sell it to Protestants.

    The whole thing is yet another embarassment for for N. Ireland.
    GOD, we have a lot of intelligent business people. Why can’t they exert themselves creating some decent paying jobs, and making the place livable. It’s crap like this that makes me think N.I. has zero future worth talking about.

    As for the guy who says he welcomes the building of Catholic houses….how the hell can a house be Catholic. And why would anybody welcome more segregation. I give up.

    It’s good that i’m all pissed off now. i have a rugby match in an hour.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    This is a great thread, unionists scrambling to justify bigotry and slipping into whataboutery is quite amusing.

  • ShayPaul

    2 acres of prime farmland going cheap outside Toomebridge.

    Small inconvenience – the grass is green.

  • Alan2

    This seems like alot of fuss over nothing. Firstly how is it “a land grab”? Aren’t property companies supposed to erm buy property?
    Financially, Northern Ireland has seen the highest proprty price rises in the UK this year so it makes sense to invest in properties.
    The links with the Order do not seem to be official but rather a project undertaken by various Orangemn and presumably others.

    Finally if you read the article it is only 16 properties and therefore more likely to be along the lines of “helped to build confidence in Protestant communities”. It’s an non story unless Mark’s suggestions are correct and it is a shady tax scam or something.