Catholics dominate low pay jobs in Royal Victoria

Suzanne Breen with a piece on the lingering differential between Catholic and Protestant unemployment rates. In a companion article in The Village she quotes Diane Dodds complaint about the high levels of Catholics employed in certain jobs, mostly those requiring lower skill sets – ‘96% of security and cleaning staff are Catholic’. However, the differential appears to reverse as the skills and pay rise – ‘Catholics are seriously under-represented among the Royal’s dental (16%) and medical (32%) staff’.

  • willowfield

    LOL!

    Maybe one day they’ll be allowed to be buried in the same graveyards as us.

  • maca

    “It is one thing for Roman Catholics to describe their church as “the Catholic Church” and themselves as “Catholics”, offensive though the implication of such terminology is to Protestants.

    It is quite another to object to Protestants making a point of referring properly to the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholics!”

    We’re not expected to see eye to eye on this issue.
    The use of the term “catholic” (at least by southerners) as opposed to “roman catholic” is NEVER meant to be offensive. In fact this thread is the first time I have ever heard of it’s use being offensive. Truth.
    However, because using “catholic” is so natural (and lazy, remember we do this with a lot of different terms) when you use “roman catholic” it comes across as if you are making a point.

    In summary, we never use “catholic” to make a point but we often feel you use “roman” catholic to make a point.

    And it’s not just catholics who use the term “catholic” to refer to “roman catholic”. Most people I have met from Britain and other countries do the same.

    I’d also wonder how many people know that Protestant is a catholic faith. You may know, but don’t assume everyone else knows. And as Davros pointed out earlier using catholic to refer to protestats can also be considered offensive.
    We can’t win either way.

  • Alan2

    “Paisley’s crowd say all Catholics worship the anti-Christ and are going to hell”

    This has been covered before. The Westminster confession of faith expressly states this and all the major reformers stated such, Knox, Calvin, Wesley, Luther, Cranmer and others. Paisley saying it is nothing that has not been said for the last 500 years.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “It is one thing for Roman Catholics to describe their church as “the Catholic Church” and themselves as “Catholics”, offensive though the implication of such terminology is to Protestants.”

    Other than yourself, who seems to get offended by the birds singing, who are these protestants that get offended by the terminology? Have you now set yourself up as some sort of spokesperson for all things protestant? Once again you have driven quite a good thread which had quite a bit of consensus into the ground with your pathetic pedantics and mopery.

  • Davros

    Other than yourself, who seems to get offended by the birds singing, who are these protestants that get offended by the terminology?

    A perfect illustration of the gulf between the two communities.

  • willowfield

    Once again you have driven quite a good thread which had quite a bit of consensus into the ground with your pathetic pedantics and mopery.

    Dear, dear Pat. It was Billy Pilgrim who started the diversion. Blame him.

  • maca

    Billy did ask the initial question, a fair question too I might add.
    Anyway it has taken away from the main discussion, but what’s new!?! At least the insults haven’t been flying.

    “A perfect illustration of the gulf between the two communities”

    Davros I think it’s also a fair question by Pat. I mean the fight up North has always been (protrayed as) Protestant vs Catholic, not one type of catholic vs another type of catholic. We’re all guilty of this, including protestants 😉

    Also, using the term “Protestant” are “protestants” not therefore causing offence to other types of protestants who may not subscribe to the same beliefs?

  • willowfield

    What Protestants do not consider themselves to be Protestant??

  • maca

    Willow
    Think you missed the point.

    Not all protestants are the same. By using the term protestant and you therefore not saying other types of protestants are not ‘real’ protestants for example? I know you’ll say no but it’s basically the same issue with the use of the term catholic.

  • smcgiff

    ‘What Protestants do not consider themselves to be Protestant??’

    A classic willowfieldism. That’s not what he meant.

    However, as some Protestants do consider themselves Catholic and others do not. Should each individual Protestant faith be fully described in full like Free P’s or Church of Ireland to similarly avoid confusion? The confusion that seems to stem from the use of ‘Catholic’ to describe Roman Catholics?

    If Catholics can’t use the term Catholic, can Protestants simply use the term Protestant?

  • Davros

    Davros I think it’s also a fair question by Pat. I mean the fight up North has always been (protrayed as) Protestant vs Catholic, not one type of catholic vs another type of catholic. We’re all guilty of this, including protestants 😉

    you misunderstand me – I wasn’t criticising Pat. I was pointing out how little members of his community know about my community. That someone from here can say that he didn’t realise that there was this feeling of resentment among many protestants at
    1) the issue of Catholic vs Roman Catholic
    and
    2) their perception that they were regarded as not quite proper christians by the Vatican,

    and to ask who else , as if to suggest that WF was talking of something that only he and a few cronies found problematic, is illustrative of just how little we know of each other.

    I can understand how you Maca would find this a revelation, but Pat who lives here ?

  • willowfield

    maca

    Not all protestants are the same. By using the term protestant and you therefore not saying other types of protestants are not ‘real’ protestants for example? I know you’ll say no but it’s basically the same issue with the use of the term catholic.

    What?

    All Protestants are Protestant and recognise themselves as such. Those who are not Protestant do not consider themselves to be Protestant.

    smcgiff

    However, as some Protestants do consider themselves Catholic and others do not. Should each individual Protestant faith be fully described in full like Free P’s or Church of Ireland to similarly avoid confusion?

    It depends. If you’re talking only about Free Ps, it would make sense to use the term “Free Ps”. If you’re talking about Protestants generally, it would make sense to use the term “Protestants”.

    If Catholics can’t use the term Catholic, can Protestants simply use the term Protestant?

    Why not?

    All Protestants are Protestant. All Catholics, on the other hand, are not Roman Catholic.

  • Butterknife

    Are Catholic dentists more likely to give you a filling instead of a Crown? … hold on, theres more…

  • Davros

    One point- protestantism is not a denomination.
    Roman catholicism is a denomination and it is the largest denomination in NI.

  • maca

    Davros, ok, getchya!

    Willow
    You’re trying to misunderstand.
    “All Protestants are Protestant and recognise themselves as such”

    Not all protestants are the same, there are differences between the various churches. By using the general term protestant for your particular brand of protestantism surelf you cause offence to the other churches. You have used this same type of argument before yourself Willow.

    “All Protestants are Protestant. All Catholics, on the other hand, are not Roman Catholic”

    That should be either
    All protestants are protestants, all catholics are catholics
    – OR –
    Not all protestants are COI, not all catholics are RC

  • maca

    “Are Catholic dentists more likely to give you a filling instead of a Crown?”

    Best laugh of the day, thanks!

  • Davros

    That’s a gem BK 🙂

  • Moderate Unionist

    First, there is the clear evidence that Protestants from poorer backgrounds do less well than Catholics from the same types of areas.

    Second, the long term patterns of the exodus of Protestants to universities and colleges in Britain and their tendency not to return means that graduates competing for higher level jobs in Northern Ireland are increasingly more likely to be Catholic.

    Of those who remain in Northern Ireland Catholics are now more likely to have higher level qualifications than Protestants.

  • smcgiff

    Humour, always welcome (especially if even I can get the joke!!)

  • Davros

    Good article on this on page 7 today’s Irish News.

  • smcgiff

    ‘there is the clear evidence that Protestants from poorer backgrounds do less well than Catholics from the same types of areas.’

    Apropos of nothing, a unionist explained to me once that because the industrial jobs at H&W etc were traditionally given to Protestants they left school early. Catholics didn’t have this option as much and stayed on in school. Therefore it has now transpired that the Catholic tradition is better suited to the modern world.

  • willowfield

    maca

    Not all protestants are the same, there are differences between the various churches.

    Nobody said they were all the same.

    By using the general term protestant for your particular brand of protestantism surelf you cause offence to the other churches.

    But I don’t use the general term Protestant for my particular brand of Protestantism. Nor does anyone else that I know of, nor do any Protestant churches.

    You have used this same type of argument before yourself Willow.

    That should be either All protestants are protestants, all catholics are catholics – OR – Not all protestants are COI, not all catholics are RC

    No. Because no-one is using Protestant to describe only one denomination within Protestantism, but the RC Church uses “Catholic” to describe only Roman Catholics.

  • smcgiff

    With respect, Willowfield,

    You can’t have it both ways.

    Either the term Catholic is confusing/insulting and the term Protestant is confusing/insulting.

    While some consider Protestantism a Catholic religion, others (no need to mention names) would be apocalyptic at such association.

    So, if you’re going to use the term Roman Catholic, you’d have to use the term Free Presbyterian and Church of Ireland, instead of just Protestant. While Protestant means protesting, it can’t be used as a term to agree a universal disagreement. Some a more Protestant than others, to coin a phrase from Orwell.

  • Butterknife

    I still remember the forward to a book that I attempted to read several years ago: It was about the Belfast Agreement. In it the professor was making the point that the only difference between the Catholic and Protestant Working Classes is that the Protestants were let down badly by a Stormont Parliament which they perceived to be their own whereas the Catholics knew that the Parliament was not their own.

    In other words while wee Sammy’s mum told him to get a trade in the shipyard etc. Mary’s mum, on the other hand, was telling her to get an education etc.

    30 years on: Where are we? All our heavy industry is a poor shadow of its former self. What is Sammy passing on to his son but a possible reliance on State benefit and his own perspective on life: e.g. lost causes etc.
    A few weeks ago I was on the Shankill Road talking to some community leaders, you could actually feel the depression of hope in the air. Contrast this with the Falls Road where there seems to be more hope. But in saying that this may be a simplistic view as each side is dictated to by their own unique paramilitary agenda.

  • Davros

    While some consider Protestantism a Catholic religion,

    You are getting terribly confused. Protestantism isn’t ‘a’ religion.

  • smcgiff

    ‘You are getting terribly confused. Protestantism isn’t ‘a’ religion.’

    Would the political leader of Northern Ireland agree with that statement?

    Now, hands up if anyone has ever seen statistics along the lines of, X% Catholic and Y% Protestant.

  • willowfield

    smcgiff

    With respect, Willowfield, You can’t have it both ways. Either the term Catholic is confusing/insulting and the term Protestant is confusing/insulting.

    Sorry?

    Neither the term Catholic, nor the term Protestant is confusing or insulting when used properly.

    When the term Catholic is not used properly, then it becomes confusing/insulting.

    I’m not aware of the term Protestant not being used properly, but if it were, perhaps it would also be confusing/insulting.

    So, if you’re going to use the term Roman Catholic, you’d have to use the term Free Presbyterian and Church of Ireland, instead of just Protestant.

    Why? If you’re referring to Protestants, why not just use the term Protestant?

  • smcgiff

    Davros,

    I’d like you to know that you were the cause of a Romanist stumbling on the following website,

    http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=cromwell

    Someone seems to think there’s a Protestant religion.

  • Butterknife

    Does it not come down to bums on seats and the number who worship that cult/faith/religion.

  • smcgiff

    ‘Why? If you’re referring to Protestants, why not just use the term Protestant?’

    All Roman Catholics are Catholics. Not all Catholics are Roman Catholic. But, not all Protestants are Catholic.

    Simply using the term Protestant is open to interpretation as to the level of Protestantism. In the same way as Catholic could mean COI or RC, Protestant could mean Catholic or non-Catholic. So, if you’re going to go to the level of calling someone RC, then you’d have to continue and describe someone as COI or FP etc.

  • Davros

    Many Thanks for the link to a rather splendid article smcgiff.

    Someone seems to think there’s a Protestant religion.

    Paisley talks of a Protestant Faith – which is rather dofferent from “a religion” which would, I suggest, equate to a denomination.

    If one asks people here what religion are they , most would In my experience give a denomination.

  • Moderate Unionist

    This a terribly depressing thread. The economy and education are strategic issues for the people who live in Northern Ireland. A significant proportion of our young people receive an excellent education and leave to build a future else where. A significant proportion of our young people receive a poor education and therefore have a poor future.

    This thread addressed these issues directly, but the discussion has moved to the semantics of religion. IMHO, religion is a personal thing (for many a private thing). The important thing is to be able to practice your religion in whatever way you think fit, free from persectution in a society that respects divergence. Mutual understanding is of course helpful, and I don’t hold with the view that any one religion has a monopoly on righteousness or truth…

    but what I want most is to live in a country where everybody can observe their own religous beliefs, where the children are well educated, where the old, the infirm and the young feel secure and where we have an economy that will sustain and provide opportunities for future generations.

    Our preoccupation with labels distracts us from the real challenges for our community and is symtimatic of the problems facing us.

  • willowfield

    In my view, Christianity is a religion. Protestantism is one strand of that religion, made up of many denominations.

  • smcgiff

    Davros,

    ‘Paisley talks of a Protestant Faith – which is rather dofferent from “a religion” which would, I suggest, equate to a denomination.’

    I didn’t, needless to say, delay long, but I think he used the term Protestant religion.

    From what I can see, for some Protestants (I’m not even sure what this term means now) they see it as a denomination of either the Catholic religion or a more general Christian faith.

  • smcgiff

    As one Catholic* to another, Willowfield, we’ll have to agree to disagree!

    *Well, raised Catholic anyway.

  • willowfield

    Agree to disagree about what?

  • Warm Storage

    Fascinating; truly fascinating.

    Well, that’s passed an hour of my working day in my wee secular world. So glad I gave up hugging the altar rails all those years ago…

    You’re only what you are because you were born into it, people (apologies to any religious converts on Slugger). Your religion is an accident of birth. Sheesh!

  • Davros

    smcgiff, one can look at ‘protestant’ in several ways. The easiest, in NI context, is to regard it as defining non-RC Christians. That satifies the need to put everything in NI into binary opposition 😉

  • smcgiff

    ‘Agree to disagree about what?’

    About me being correct, of course.

  • maca

    MU: 12:32 PM
    Well said.

    Is it just me or is the Paisley site more about knocking Rome than promoting his own faith? Just had a look at the Q&A page and every second question seems to be about what Rome does and why they reject that.

  • smcgiff

    Agreed, Warm Storage,

    In fact you can give up your religion, but still be tied to the ancillary trappings that go with it.

  • Fraggle

    you religionistic taxonomists are a tedious lot!

  • smcgiff

    ‘you religionistic taxonomists are a tedious lot!’

    Bad writing it, worse to bother reading it. And if you haven’t read it, how do you know it’s tedious! 🙂

  • Butterknife

    Did you know the 4 Gospels were chosen to represent the Greek’s philosophy of the 4 elements of air, water, earth and fire and the book of Thomas was discarded as it was regarded as heresy as it maintained that the only true church dwells in our souls thus doing away with priests etc.

  • smcgiff

    Not to mention Mary Magdella’s (sp)!

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Moderate Unionist.

    “what I want most is to live in a country where everybody can observe their own religous beliefs, where the children are well educated, where the old, the infirm and the young feel secure and where we have an economy that will sustain and provide opportunities for future generations.”

    In fairness MU, that country is most assuredly not called Northern Ireland. Nor is it called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    It is called the Republic of Ireland, and we have a long-standing invitation to take our place in that state and enjoy all of the above.

    So which do you, as a moderate unionist want more: all of the above but outside the union; or the continuing inpossibility of all of the above within the union?

    Or in short: would you be willing to pay the price (ie the union) in return for the that which you say you dream of?

  • Butterknife

    Indeed, was she (Mary Magellan) not found to be the first among equals to the apostles?

  • smcgiff

    Mary Magellan

    Possibly the reason for the status Mary (Jesus’ mother) holds in today’s Roman (okay, now ye can call Derry, Derry!) Catholic church, as a surrogate, to take attention away from Mary Magellan. This has resonance in today’s world because of the differences between Protestant and RC’s.

  • Gerry O’Sullivan

    Indeed, was she (Mary Magellan) not found to be the first among equals to the apostles?

    Do you mean Mary Magdalene?

    Have you been reading The Da Vinci Code? ;o)

  • smcgiff

    ‘Have you been reading The Da Vinci Code? ;o)’

    One of the worst books ever written! Don’t mention it again!!! 😉

  • Gerry O’Sullivan

    One of the worst books ever written! Don’t mention it again!!! 😉

    Agreed, smcgiff. Tedious stuff!

  • slackjaw

    I am reading the Da Vinci Code on the train. Vanity demands that I state that I did not buy it, but that my housemate gave it to me.

    It is unputdownable. Unputdownable in the sense that I have to finish it as soon as possible, as I cannot believe I am wasting valuable hours of my reading life on this garbage. Truly abominable stuff. Grimly hilarious, for all the wrong reasons.

    Here’s a code for yis to break:

    THERE PIUS, BIG UNFROCKING

  • Butterknife

    I try not to read books it tends to rot one’s brain – in other words no I have not read the named book but I used to love biblical archaeology as a youth (I know) and I have some very convincing programmes on the subject with sources within the Vatican etc.

    I think you may be right on the surname. I was relying on the Word spellchecker to find the best looking surname; forgot that it was designed by a baby Bill: i.e. A WASP:)

  • Butterknife

    “THERE PIUS, BIG UNFROCKING” = It is the UUP’s fault?

  • Davros

    So, when people assume I have read or am reading the Da Vinci Code it’s an imsult ?
    Time to update that list!

  • Butterknife

    If you want to read a good book i suggest “Sophie’s World” by Jorstein Gaardner (sic). It is basically aimed at teenagers and is written in a fiction style: i.e. a teenager gets strange philosophical discussions in the post and begins a correspondence with Mr X about the history of philosophers etc. Even to me, a person who likes books with speech bubbles, I couldn’t put the book down.

  • Davros

    BK- have you tried Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance By Pirsig ?

  • George

    Davros,
    I’m with you on Zen and the …… That book was recommended reading in the computer science course in UCD.

    My favourite line which I think should be used when analysing most things:

    “Quality is that point where subjectivity and objectivity meet.”

  • Davros

    I love that blasted book 🙂 I never managed to get into his next book that is in a box somewhere.

  • idunnomeself

    maybe I’m being daft, but what Protestant groups don’t consider themselves Catholic?

    It’s in the Apostles Creed (I believe in.. the holy C(k)atholic Church), which is recited in all the Protestant Churches that I know of.

    So lots of Prods do know about this issue, because the kids always ask ‘why does it say we’re Catholics’ and get it explained to them.

    Maca my beef here isn’t with ordinary (Roman)Catholics, not at all fussed about them, but with the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church who don’t think I, and others like me, are proper Christains. If they sorted this out there would be no chance of any misunderstanding.

  • willowfield

    As far as I know, IDM, all Protestants consider themselves to be Catholic.

  • ShayPaul

    idunnomeself

    Don’t worry about it, the RC hierarchy tells us that the majority of RC’s are doomed to purgatory as “lapsed” catholics who don’t go to mass every sunday.

    Nobody’s fussed about that either.

    The Prod RC ticket is just a sectarian thing to keep the voters in boxes. In the dark, bullshit, mushroom syndrome.

    I propose that all catholics in the south that support a United Ireland convert to protestantism. Then Ian and the DUP would be happy to join in a united protestant majority Ireland.

    Not such a big sacrifice for the republican dream, compared to the armed struggle and the hunger strikes.

  • fair_deal

    How’s about this – that individual churches are entitled to believe whatever they like about other churches based on their interpretation of their own particular religious texts.

    Freedom of thought does apply to religions.

    They can then use the terminology that communicates their interpretation. If Bin Laden wants to call me an infidel based on his interpretation of the Koran then so be it.

    The limits on this freedom is they are not allowed to use these interpretations as a basis for incitement to or actual violence or for systemic exclusion from public life.

    I like diversity in all its forms whether they be soft or harsh. Anything else and we end up on a slippery slope to thought police.

    I’ll get my coat.

  • George

    Shaypaul,
    purgatory was abolished under Vatican II – Return of the Vernacular…

    You’re all splitters. The only universal Christian Church is the Orthodox Church.

  • Davros

    Non- Catholic Protestants – Unitarians and Quakers for starters. That’s why they are not elegible to join the Orange Order.

  • Vicki An American Catholic

    [If anything like this happens again.. it would be better to alert either Mick or one of the other bloggers here.. rather than just posting further comments – Edited Moderator]

  • Concerned

    Vicki

    Sehnds lahhk ya will unn troolee d’zerved it hon, yo’ nat bin gittin inny ssince ? Feller bah da neahm uv Vance ’round eze parts bee mo’ den heppay t’surrvuss yo’ needz and ah beez gittin da feehlunn yo’ be speekunn heez lehwngwuge.

    G’loohk baybeuh

  • TAFKABO

    Wow, another internet first for me.

    I’ve never seen what is basically a solicitation for an assasination on a specific individual before.

    Surely this has to be breaching the laws of most western countries,nevermind the rules of this site.

    Vicki, you sound really pissed off, but be aware that you could get yourself in very serious trouble for what you have just done.