Putting things in perspective…

SINN Fein members are visiting the site of Auschwitz concentration camp today at the invitation of NI’s Jewish community. One wonders what lessons Gerry Kelly and Martin McGuinness will draw from the experience, but it might make Mr Kelly think about ‘ethnic cleansing’ (and those of his loyalist counterparts) in North Belfast. Frankly, the ‘Troubles’ were nothing compared to the horrors of WWII concentration camps – more people died in Auschwitz than in our entire conflict. In fact, the death toll at this one death camp wasn’t far from the entire population size of Northern Ireland…

  • Davros

    Disgusting comment

  • ulsterman

    What’s so disgusting about it. Those visiting it are the arch hypocrites.

    God Save The Queen.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Are you stating that you believe their was ethnic cleansing by Kelly in North Belfast Gonzo?

  • willowfield

    One hopes the visit will – as Gonzo points out – put things in perspective and tone down the MOPEish tendencies of Provisional SF.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Pat

    You miss the point again. No.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Why make the point of Kelly thinking about it then? Or was that just a cheap shot that you couldn’t resist, again.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Pat

    No, it’s because its a phrase that he and loyalists bandy about as though they know the meaning of the words, or at least pretend to have an understanding of what ethnic cleansing is.

    Comparing North Belfast’s intimidation to the horrors of Auschwitz, Rwanda, Warsaw ghettoes or wherever, as our local politicians constantly do, grossly distorts the scale of our ‘Troubles’.

    There is simply no comparison, and another term would seem more appropriate, rather than jumping on the MOPE bandwagon (whether green or orange).

    But then, that much is obvious from the post.

    This is not to belittle what victims in North Belfast and elsewhere have been subject to – intimidation is always unpleasant – but is a call for a little perspective in the bigger scheme of things. As I noted, at Auschwitz, the equivalent of the WHOLE population of NI was put to death.

    Do you really doubt that Mr Kelly would have many problems with fewer Brits in his constituency anyway?

    Maybe we should ask Sean Russell or Lord Londonderry, or [INSERT NAZI REPUBLICAN/UNIONIST SYMPATHISER’S NAME HERE].

  • willowfield

    Londonderry wasn’t a Nazi sympathiser. He was an appeaser. Not the same thing.

  • Rebecca Black

    “Maybe we should ask Sean Russell or Lord Londonderry, or [INSERT NAZI REPUBLICAN/UNIONIST SYMPATHISER’S NAME HERE].”

    selective history perhaps? Lord Londonderry was indeed a friend of Hitler in the early days, I repeat early days when many UK conservatives thought he was a “marvellous fellow” for reorganising Germany and pulling it out of the hyperinflation and chaos following the first world war.

    In the 1930s this friendship petered out.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    God, youse sound like republicans.

  • Rebecca Black

    how?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    I think it was the instinctive defensiveness of a dodgy historical figure that did it for me.

    Ach, don’t worry about it. Just winding youse up. The touchiness when I did so reminded me of how republicans might react though…

    *runs and hides*

  • Keith M

    Given that the IRA in the 1940’s collaborated with the Nazis, and apology might be more appropriate than a media stunt.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Keith M,

    Asking Kelly or Adams to apologise for the something that allegedly occurred before they were born is a bit bizarre. Akin to asking the Queen to apologise for the behaviour of Edward and Mrs Simpson.

  • Davros

    Alban Maginness

    SDLP WELCOME SINN FEIN VISIT TO AUSCHWITZ

    Statement by Alban Maginness, SDLP MLA for North Belfast and SDLP Justice spokesperson:

    “I note the proposed visit by Martin McGuinness and Gerry Kelly to Auschwitz, Birkenau and Cracow for a Holocaust memorial event. I am sure it will be a life-changing and life-enhancing experience and a testimony to the futility of violence.

    “Now is an opportune moment for people to provide whatever information they have, if any, about the circumstances of the death of a prominent member of the Jewish community, Leonard Kaitcer, who in February 1980 was abducted from his home in South Belfast and later found shot in West Belfast. The circumstances of the murder are unknown and it has been attributed by authoritative commentaries such as ‘Lost Lives’ to “republicans”.

    “I have been told that Mr. Kaitcer’s killing was a significant factor in the decline of Belfast’s once-thriving Jewish community, which contributed so much to this city, including a distinguished Lord Mayor, Sir Otto Jaffe. Right up to the 1970s the Jewish community was particularly strong in North Belfast and there was a synagogue in Adela Street, which is now on Somerton Road. Mr. Kaitcer’s death is one of the 1800+ unsolved killings in our community since 1969 and it is incumbent on all to put whatever information they have in the public domain. A clear statement by any, or all, of the armed groups who contributed to the killings in our society on deaths such as Mr. Kaitcer’s would be beneficial.”

  • Panda

    Although Kelly & McGuinness are not top of my Xmas card list, the fact is that they were invited by the NI Jewish Community-it’s not a private publicity stunt. If anyone is entitled to make the judgement about whether they should be allowed anywhere near Auschwitz, then surely it’s the Jewish people themselves.
    Hopefully, it may curb some of the more outrageous hyperbole(eg O’Donnell comparing the travails of the Short Strand to the Warsaw Ghetto)which occasionally spouts out from all politicians here.

  • Davros

    Meanwhile Gerry in the USA is still blethering on about the possibility of a United Ireland by 2016 – when SF cannot even persuade Unionists to trust them
    in a devolved NI. Of course Unionists believe
    Justice Minister McDowell, as , I suspect, do most nationalists.

  • felix quigley

    I support Alban Maginnis in his call for information on the murder of Leonard Kaitcer and I am interested in Alban´s comments as well on the decline of Jewish people in Ireland.

    I am always struck by the level of anti-Semitism in Ireland. I am not talking at all about the IRA´s Russell who did collaborate with the Nazis. Nor about Sean South, the great IRA hero, who was if my information is correct a jew hater. Nor about DeValera and his government who refused any Jewish refugees into Ireland from the Death Camps.

    What I am talking about is the modern anti-Semitism which the neo-left and republican groups indulge in under cover of being anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and pro Palestinian Arab terror attacks on Israel. In this regard is it not true that the republicans have trained in the Middle East with Palestinian Arabs.

    In this light it is extremely hypocritical for Sinn Fein to visit a Nazi Death Camp and it is also extremely wrong for an Irish Jewish leadership to invite them. It is just not a principled thing to do.

    The neo-left and republican groups have been foremost in supporting the terror campaign of Arafat´s PLO to wipe out the Jewish state.

    Take this a step further back. The uncle of Arafat, the notorious nazi war criminal, Haj Amin el Husseini, also known as the Mufti of Jerusalem, had a big role in the Nazi Final Solution. He met Hitler in Berlin, he set up deadly SS divisions among the Moslems of Bosnia which killed many Jews, he had a pact with Hitler to wipe out all the Jews in the Middle East.

    The history of this man, this Arab Palestinian Nazi, this relative of Arafat, has been hidden bythe neo-left and republicans in Ireland. So they hide this vital history, yet the same people are visiting a Nazi death camp and it seems are even invited by Jewish people to do so. Something is very wrong about this visit.

  • felix quigley

    The point made by Belfast Gonzo is very important. He says ‘Comparing North Belfast’s intimidation to the horrors of Auschwitz, Rwanda, Warsaw ghettoes or wherever, as our local politicians constantly do, grossly distorts the scale of our ‘Troubles’.

    There is simply no comparison, and another term would seem more appropriate, rather than jumping on the MOPE bandwagon (whether green or orange).

    But then, that much is obvious from the post.

    This is not to belittle what victims in North Belfast and elsewhere have been subject to – intimidation is always unpleasant – but is a call for a little perspective in the bigger scheme of things. As I noted, at Auschwitz, the equivalent of the WHOLE population of NI was put to death.’

    I have seen this comparision made many times and it is really a holocaust denial strategy. Even to put it in the same sentence as say Rwanda is also in my opinion part of this iniquitous holocaust denial.

    It has to be insisted that the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews stands quite apart. The reason is that this was not an isolated event but was part of a long history of persecution which has been going on for thousands of years. To understand it you have to go back to the Roman defeat of the Jewish revolt and the subsequent dispersal of the Jewish people in the 1st century. From that time on the Jews have been a persecuted race. The need for a Jewish homeland, Israel, or return to Zion, Zionism, arises from that. I have already referred to the neo-left opposition to this homeland, opposition to Zionism.

    Rebecca Black also makes an important point when she refers to the pro-Nazi sympathies of Lord Londonderry. She is correct and it was a huge swathe of British society involved. But I think that Rebecca omits the main reason for this Hitler support. It was not just admiration for organisation etc (which was false anyway) but was based on the existing jew hatred inside British society, and which still exists. Even the King was involved.

    This was why Britain, the war over, was in 1945 already bringing the Arab Nazis back into safety, protect them and build them into an anti-Jewish Nazi cadre, of which Haj Amin was part. These Nazis were used by British intelligence and by the British state in fact to fight against Jews in the war which followed the setting up of Israel by the United Nations in 1948. They were defeated (the British and the Arab Nazis) in this but the legacy of Jew hatred was carried on by Haj Amin´s relative in what became the PLO. Rebecca, the driving force behind Londonderry and others was Jew hatred, anti-semitism. THAT is the lesson. Also the driving force behind this movement, supported by the way by Bush and Blair, for a SECOND Arab state out of the Homeland mandate, this so-called Palestinian nationalism, IS Jew hatred. They want the Middle East Judenfrei.

  • felix quigley

    I have given a little more thought to this subject. If I pose the question why should we get overheated about McGuinness and Kelly visiting the death camps it may give some clarity.

    The centre of this question is, do you consider that anti-Semitism is something in the past. I obviously do not. My position is that anti-Semitism today is a very serious matter and it is taking the form of the vicious anti-Israeli campaign being waged in many quarters.

    The EU bureaucracy is viciously anti-Israel. The media, and especially the BBC also is. This was made apparant on the treatment by the media on the so-called Jenin ´massacre’. And there is the growing threat of islamo-fascism. I am emphasising that the new anti-Semitism is this very campaign by these very people against Zionism, a word and concept they do not understand and have never studied.

    But a big factor in this anti-Israeli campaign has been led by the Provisional IRA, Sinn Fein and other republican groups. Also by what I call the neo-left which is centred around the Palestine Solidarity Committees.

    I have dealt with this very issue, and the issue of Zionism, in an article which will be published by Israpundit in a weeks time. Your site is welcome to cover it as well.

    This visit by these two republicans can only conceal their record of support for the very people who want another genocide of Jews. This is the importance of understanding where this PLO, Fatah, Al Aqsa, Hamas have come from, historically. Consider this:

    ‘ “The [1929] riots [in Palestine] were accompanied by militant Arab slogans such as… ‘Palestine is our land and the Jews our dogs…’ [and] brutal acts by Arabs…such as the killings in Hebron, where small children were tortured by their murderers before being murdered. …the Jewish community in Palestine found itself caught up in a wave of violent disturbances that swept with a fury through Jewish settlements and neighborhoods throughout the length and breadth of the country. The danger now appeared to threaten the very survival of the entire Jewish community.” –Shapira, A. 1992. Land and power. New York & Oxford: Oxford University Press, (p.174)

    Even anti-Zionists, such as Nathan Weinstock, recognize that this has been the tenor of the Palestinian movement:

    “…the Palestinian anti-colonialist movement was deformed by racism. The distorted national struggle expressed itself in anti-Jewish slogans (‘Palestine is our country and the Jews are our dogs’), followed up by attacks upon Jewish passers-by and store-owners, and eventually in mob violence akin to the all-too familiar pogrom.” –Nathan Weinstock, Zionism: False Messiah, London 1979.
    http://www.marxists.de/middleast/weinstock/09-arabnat.htm

    The leader of these anti-Semitic murders was of course this man Haj Amin El Husseini. The British very shortly after those riots which he led made him into the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a position which gave him great leverage and control of finances. He used this position to attack other Arab Palestinian families and clanns to gain control over the movement. The aim, the genocide of the Jews.

    He was the leader of the Arab Higher Committee and he worked closely with the German Nazis. He WAS part of the Final Solution.

    The point I am stressing to my Jewish friends in Ireland is that McGuinness and Kelly, along with those neo-left groups I mentioned, have striven to hide this history of the PLO from Irish people and still do.

    It is obvious that there is a policy on Slugger O’Toole not to discuss these issues which is the only conclusion drawn from the sudden silence which descends when I raise them. So perhaps it is wise to point out exactly what you are supporting. The following is written by Francisco Gil White, assistant editor of Emperors New Clothes, which can be found on http://www.tenc.net (The url of the article is at the end for people who read sluggerotoole to look up and spend time studying whether this is factually true or not)
    ‘The PLO was set up in 1964, based on that Arab Higher Committee, a Nazi organisation and led by a Nazi, a man who met Hitler in 1941 and worked with Eichmann in the Final Solution. The plan was to have in charge of exterminating every Jew in the Arab Middle East.

    What are the facts?

    When it was first formed, “The PLO’s… charter (the Palestine National Charter, or Covenant) set out the goals of the organization, which included the complete elimination of Israeli sovereignty in Palestine and the destruction of the State of Israel.” [7]

    Think about that: the *destruction* of the State of Israel…

    It is worth looking at the actual language used in the PLO Charter or Covenant (my emphases below): [8]

    [Start Associated Press Quote]

    “Article 9…said that ‘armed struggle is the *only* way to liberate Palestine.’ Article 15 said it is ‘a national duty to repulse the Zionist imperialist invasion from the great Arab homeland and to *purge* the Zionist presence from Palestine.’ Article 22 declared that ‘the liberation of Palestine will *liquidate* the Zionist and imperialist presence and bring about the stabilization of peace in the Middle East.’”

    [End Associated Press Quote]

    The talk of ‘purging’ and ‘liquidating’ a ‘presence,’ and the insistence on violence as the “*only* way to liberate Palestine” (!) certainly sounds like the PLO’s founding goal was genocide.’

    (http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/Israel.htm)

    Basically, to my friends in the website Sluggerotoole, I would suggest that by refusing to discuss these issues is perhaps a little more serious than you may imagine.

    I would suggest that you are continuing to support a fascist movement which has always had the genocide of the Jews of Israel on its agenda. Some of you may claim to be against such things as the suicide bombing of Jews by those organisations I mentioned. But your silence on these vital issues says something different.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Felix.

    Can one support Irish independence and not be an anti-semite?

    Can one criticise Israel and not be an anti-semite?

    In the face of your thesis, what can one do in order to not be an anti-semite?

  • James

    God’ll getcha for that, Billy.

  • felix quigley

    billy Pilgrim, my thesis as you called it, raised a whole number of points, which deal with the history right up to the present of this so-called Palestinianism, and deals with the Nazi role of its founder, Haj Amin el Husseini, who handed over the reins to his relation Arafat. You make your snide comments about whether it is possible to criticise Israel. Of course so long as it is on the same basis as every other country. But you are not interested in where this PLO came from. You are not interested in the support given to it by the republicans who made this visit etc. So no discussion possible with you. You say nothing about El Husseini and his murderous role. Is he connected to the present PLO or not? Is the Palestinian movement anti-Semitic or not. If it is then anybody who supports it is really seeking to end ther state of Israel. But I doubt you are interested in that. As for the regulars on this website your silence (organised) speaks volumes. The fascist nazi history of this PLO you will continue to conceal from Irish people. You should be ashamed but I doubt that. I do not know what kind of a site Mick Fealty has developed but it does not smell good to me. Discussion of ideas should be central and what we have here is censorship by silence. I will find other and better ways to advocate the ideas and principles of Zionism.

  • Charlie

    I just came across this site looking for suspected nazis in the english west midlands in the 1940s. I’m Scottish and Catholic and from an Irish background. My gran was a Protestant and was the nicest woman I’ll ever know. Her ancestors probably killed loads of my other ancestors. And vice versa. So what she didn’y care about your religion only who you were.

    If some Mufti supported Hitler does that make all arabs responsible for the holocaust?

    When Cromwell took my clans lands in the 17th century do I hate the English – no.

    Where did most Jews live before the Holocaust? Mebbe central Europe. Why could they not be part of being European,as they were in my growing up in Britain?

    I hate the Jewish retreat to Israel, I think it’s really negative, tho I can understand it. The bottom line is that zionists want somebody else’s country. And unbelievably the PLO have said its ok

    I’m not saying Britain was once all Celts so send the Anglo Saxons back. We live together. And if we don’t we die alone.

    God bless
    Charlie

    ps url just for the wee town in england I love and don’t need to make Scotish 😉

  • charlie

    Since Palestinians are Semites – how would they be anti-semitic (Nazi could be)? You’re all from the same gene pool, much like us northern Europeans are. And we probably have cousins together.

    We need to communicate and I suppose this is a start.

    All the best
    Charlie