One for the US readers…

SO who did you vote for, if you were voting in the US Presidential election? Which candidate would play the better role in NI? Bush has had a more ‘hands off’ attitude, delegating responsibilities to envoys like Richard Haass and Mitchel Reiss. Clinton took a keen interest, even too much, for some. Which approach works best, in your opinion? Or is it just ‘Nationalists for Clinton, Unionists for Bush’?

I think Bush will take it, just. Ah well… we’ll know soon enough.

  • Emily

    I’m not going to the polls until this evening, but when I do, I will vote for Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian Party candidate. If I lived in a swing state (I’m in California – the Kerry victory is solid), my “lesser of two evils” would be Bush.

    Like one of those guys that make “South Park” said, this election is like choosing between a sh*t sandwich and another sh*t sandwich.

  • Hektor Bim

    Voting for Kerry, and the two candidates’ respective attitude toward Northern Ireland doesn’t even begin to register on the list of reasons why.

    Frankly, I’m dubious that much will change in the US position toward Northern Ireland no matter who wins. It will be fun to see the hotter protestants freak out at a catholic in the White House, though.

    Kerry should win and win by a significant margin in the Electoral College.

    It’s interesting that so many people in Europe seen to think Bush will win. What are you basing it on? There is probably a very interesting article to be written on European media coverage of American political campaigns and how that skews the perception of the average European.

  • Mario

    According to some North American friends, Senator Kerry will be more hands on in regards to Northern Ireland. There is a lot of interest in his home state of Mass for Northern Ireland, specifically in Boston with its large population of citizens of Irish and Ulster/Scots ancestry. There is also talk of president Clinton being interested in a cabinet position or perhaps even as ambassador of a rainy island state. 😉

    It will not mean much for us here in Argentina. But things in the southern tip of south america are definitely experiencing change. Our neighbor Uruguay, has just elected its first moderate socialist president.

  • willowfield

    It’s interesting that so many people in Europe seen to think Bush will win. What are you basing it on?

    Pessimism?

  • willowfield

    It’s interesting that so many people in Europe seen to think Bush will win. What are you basing it on?

    Pessimism?

  • daithimacmhaolmhuaidh

    Hi Gonzo.

    Voted for Kerry, and like Hektor gave not the slightest shadow of a thought to Northern Ireland. Rather voted for a good solid man, and to remove the most secretive, mendacious, partisan, mean spirited and incompetent leaders I’ve ever had the bad fortune to observe.

    As an adopted New Yorker, the Osama video was the last nail in the coffin in my circle – how dare he have failed so miserably in pursuing (or even trying to pursue) the son of a b that blew up my backyard – and based on my polling place and anecdotal evidence at work and the pub the turnout is jaw-dropping.

    I’m hopeful. Let’s see.

  • smcgiff

    I got about two hours sleep last night, eyes rolling up my head as I type, but when I retired, a Bush victory seemed certain. He certainly won the popular vote, but latest info is that it could yet be the exact opposite of 2000. For Florida read Ohio. For hanging Chad read Provisional votes.

    Oh the irony! You can have my two front teeth, this is all I want for Christmas.

    Staying with a US euphemism, I don’t think work will be getting much bang for its buck today.

  • maca

    A Daithí
    “I’m hopeful. Let’s see”

    There’s a lot of hopeful people here too. I don’t know anyone here (N.Eur) who wants to see Bush get a second term.

    smcgiff
    “I got about two hours sleep last night…”

    What were you up to ya dirty divil ?!?

  • smcgiff

    ‘What were you up to ya dirty divil ?!?’

    If my head wasn’t so fuzzy right now I’d come back with a really witty, am, whatsit, so I would!

  • willowfield

    Went to bed last night when most people were predicting a Kerry win. How depressing to wake up this morning to hear Bush is poised to win.

    Bloody Americans: so difficult to understand.

  • Gerry O’Sullivan

    I think I’ll give A Tangled Web a miss for the next couple of days. The constant chants of “FOUR MORE WARS” would be a bit too much to bear.

  • ulsterman

    Great news. The Papist was defeated. As in Ulster the Pope got his ass kicked. The Papish Fenian ridden Democratic Party was stuffed in Congress.

    The Ulster Nation will be free of Rome trying to influence us in the future.

    With a hugh smile I say

    God Bless President Bush,

    God Save Ulster.

  • David Vance

    What happened my earlier comment???

    Just a word of invitation to all Slugger readers to come over to ATW where we’re having a Party in celebration of the Bush victory. This morning’s key topic is which country we should invade next – I’m favouring France but who knows, maybe YOU have a better suggestion..y’all welcome….and cheer up!!

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    David,
    if the choice is France will you be donning the khaki and the first one on to the beaches or will you prefer to sit knitting by the fireside, extolling other to lay down their lives for your cause.

  • hagrid

    Willowfield’s ‘pessimism’ regarding the outsome of the election is not far off the mark.

    If I could make a judgement from international tv reports (including intervies made in Irak) the ordinary people of the world were hoping for a Kerry victory. In this respect, it’s good to know that the world’s policeman is listening!

  • willowfield

    It’s very poor taste on the part of Vance to be joking about war.

    Bush was the candidate of insular, unthinking, unreasoning American “patriots”, with no understanding of the world. That’s the company Vance is in.

  • hagrid

    Pat:

    if the choice is France will you be donning the khaki and the first one on to the beaches or will you prefer to sit knitting by the fireside, extolling other to lay down their lives for your cause.

    Don’t hold your breath – he may only be following the lead of his american heroes. Did you know that only ONE american congressman has allowed his child to go to Irak and fight for ‘freedom’ as an american serviceman?

  • willowfield

    Fighting the war is for poor people, hagrid.

  • Keith M

    I had €20 on Kerry as a “consolation prize” in case my favoured candidate lost. I’m well pleased with Bush’s win. He was clearly the lesser of two evils. Did anyone actually FOR Kerry rather than against Bush?.

    Last night was a great night for democracy. No more whinging for people complaining about Bush not winning the popular vote. It looks like more people voted for Bush than ever voted for Clinton.

    To DV, as attractive as it might be to invade France, if I was Bush, the first thing I’d so would be to force the UNO to vacate their offices in New York and move to Africa, not that anyone in the UN would ever be able to locate Africa on a map!

    Also a very good night for Northern Ireland. (I’m still laughing at the thought of Ted Kennedy’s smugness in telling us what the four years of the Kerry Presidency would bring!).

  • Davros
  • Belfast Gonzo

    I noticed that (in Mr Vance’s terms) most of the lily-livered, supine, Vichy-government supporting media had called it Kerry yesterday. They almost had me believing them.

    How could you John Snow?

    I just knew Bush would take it…

    *weeps uncontrolably into keyboard*

  • Davros

    I would suggest that the short-term ‘victory for NI’ will be a long-term disaster for NI and the World.
    Think of the Short-term victory Mrs Thatcher had over the Hunger strikers. Ditto Athboy.

  • smcgiff

    Ulsterman,

    The Catholic church in the US said it would be a sin for Catholics to vote for Kerry because of his views on Stem cell research and abortion.

    In fact, his religion was a non-issue throughout the campaign.

    Davros, Re your halliburton link – please don’t post anymore reasons for me to think 51% of Americans are as dumb as dirt. 😉

    BTW, the fat lady hasn’t quite sung yet!

  • willowfield

    How on earth can Keith M say Bush was “the lesser of two evils”? How can rational support Bush over Kerry? The man’s dangerous: in the pockets of bis business and an ideological cabal.

    The irony is he gets his votes from the very people who suffer from his policies as the rich get richer and the tax burden shifts to the working and middle classes.

    As for NI, it wouldn’t have made any difference who won.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Going by the Tele a Norn Iron listener contributed to the talk show of U.S. right whinger Rush Limbaugh. The Norn Irelander went under the name of ‘Christopher’. He told Limbaugh that 95% of people here wanted Bush to win.

    Mmmm a right whinger called ‘Christopher’ spoofing made up stats on a propagandist talk show. I wonder who it could be?

  • maca

    It’s a rare thing I agree with Willow but i’m with him on this. As bad as Kerry is he miles ahead of Bush.

    As for the result. Many people seem pretty convinved of the victory. There’s less than 3% difference in Ohio and questions raised over provisional ballots.

    I couldn’t give a toss at the end of the day but I think it’s safer for us all if Kerry gets in.

  • nuzhound
  • George

    Have to agree with Willowfield,
    it would have made no difference to Northern Ireland who would have won. The region has moved beyond a situation where hands on U.S. influence is required or wanted.

    Keithm,
    What’s this we business. Are you actually from Northern Ireland? I thought you lived in the DMZ.

  • nuzhound

    It’s over.

  • willowfield

    Of course it’s over.

  • Keith M

    willowfield, I think the only person that rational people could support was Bush. Again I ask the question, did anyone actually vote for Kerry, or was it simply an anti-Bush vote?

    What you call “ideological cabal” some would call “the vision thing”. Like Bush or not, he actually stands for something and in a era of PR and sound bites that is in my opinion a refreshing change.

    Kerry is very closely aligned with Ted Kennedy. As a unionist (or at least a UUP supporter) that should wroory you in relation to his intentions on Northern Ireland. Give me Bush anyday.

  • maca

    “That 3% represents more than 136,000 votes…”
    Fair enough.

  • ulsterman

    Actually it was one only one Papist Bishop in a Southern State that asked Americans to vote for Bush.

    Rome clearly wanted to win. If the Papist had of one you could bet your bottom dollar that the Pope and him would have conspired to destroy Ulster.

    For the last four years Ulster has been left alone by Bush. It was nauseating when Clinton was in power to see Adams, Clinton and all the enemies of Ulster rushing to the Whitehouse to try and destroy our nation.

    Bush has a mandate now. He won both the electoral college and the Popular vote. The Papist should concede. The Vatican has lost.

    Praise the Lord.

    God Save The Queen.

  • davidbrew

    willow-another bad call for you there.Time to listen to those of us who have your best interests at heart. W is a conviction politician-obviously anathema to pro Agreement Unionists-and infinitely better than the flipflop serial marrier-upper.Better for the USA; better for the world;and certainly better for NI. Kerry makes Ted kennedy look right wing

    Bet noone has seen Shillary’s voting paper either. :0)

  • David Vance

    Belfast Gonzo,

    I’m shocked – you actually BELIEVED our rancid pro-Kerry media!!!

    There is nothing like watching the crest-fallen faces of the BBC, ITN, Channel 4 stooges who once again called it wrong.

    Bush back in the White House, an increased majority in Senate, control of House, the biggest share of the popular vote in years….mmm..not a bad night for those of us on the right.

    Above all, I’m gutted for Bruce Springsteen…and REM….AND my old pal, Elvis Costello. Losers to a man.

  • smcgiff

    David,

    The one wise comment you made was regarding Hillary.

    One could be forgiven for thinking –

    4 more wars, followed by, 4 more Clinton years.

  • willowfield

    Keith M

    willowfield, I think the only person that rational people could support was Bush.

    I think not. Bush gets much of his support from unthinking, uneducated people. He relies on those who believe Bush is God’s candidate and it is a sin to vote for Kerry. These people are not rational. Most educated and rational people vote Democratic.

    Again I ask the question, did anyone actually vote for Kerry, or was it simply an anti-Bush vote?

    I have no doubt that many people voted for Kerry rather than anti-Bush. Many people will have voted against Bush. I fail to see why it matters. If people disike Bush so much do you think they should refrain from voting because they aren’t passionate about Kerry?

    What you call “ideological cabal” some would call “the vision thing”. Like Bush or not, he actually stands for something and in a era of PR and sound bites that is in my opinion a refreshing change.

    I think history tells us that ideologues are dangerous when they get their hands on power.

    Kerry is very closely aligned with Ted Kennedy. As a unionist (or at least a UUP supporter) that should wroory you in relation to his intentions on Northern Ireland. Give me Bush anyday.

    Are you saying the DUP would be unable to resist the charms of John Kerry desperately telling them to give into Sinn Fein? I don’t think so. You exaggerate American input. It’s barely relevant.

    DB

    willow-another bad call for you there.Time to listen to those of us who have your best interests at heart. W is a conviction politician-obviously anathema to pro Agreement Unionists-and infinitely better than the flipflop serial marrier-upper.Better for the USA; better for the world;and certainly better for NI. Kerry makes Ted kennedy look right wing

    I make no apology for basing my opinions and views on reason rather than “conviction”.

    Not sure how it is better for the USA to have a president in the pockets of big business, making the rich richer, happily destroying the environment for profit, starting a war on a false premise, and alienating virtually the whole world.

    Nor can I see how it is better for the world to have the US as a rogue state, destabilising the Middle East, attempting to impose by force western culture on an alien culture, confirming the worst prejudices of Islamic fundamentalists, failing to deal intelligently with international terrorism, and creating a breeding ground for those same terrorists.

    And, if as you claim Kerry would have been bothered about intervening in NI, I am concerned that you think the DUP would have been unable to stand up to him. I thought they were tough, brilliant negotiators.

  • Christopher Daigle

    The only principle or conviction that Bush posseses is preserving the elitist privileges of people like himself. People who have never once known what it is like to have TO WORK FOR A LIVING.
    What’s more unfortunate is 51% of the people voted for this parasite.

  • willowfield

    Indeed.

    And as for his moral crusade, what has he actually done? Abortion is still legal. States still have the right to decide on gay marriage and could have done so no matter who won the presidency.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    David Vance

    I only NOTED what the media said – I had already called it Bush! I wanted Kerry to win, but had decided Bush would probably get it.

    You can tell by the way I yesterday wrote: “I think Bush will take it, just. Ah well… we’ll know soon enough.”

    Sometimes I hate being right all the time(!)

  • Alan

    Bush should win this on the total vote – it’s time they did away with the electoral college.

    Things do seem to remain tight, however – remember most of the provisional votes in Ohio arise from GOP challenges to votes from minority areas.

    Also there seem to be 29,000 provisional votes in New Mexico that will need to be considered. Clutching at straws, but then the GOPs did that the last time and won!

    Interesting that there was no talk of exit polls on the Networks last night – must be a lot of pollsters out of a job since 2000.

  • willowfield

    Alan – don’t think New Mexico matters – it’s all down to Ohio, which Bush has clearly won

  • The Devil

    Glad your all so happy with the USA being run for another four years under President Cheney

    this thing should stand trial for war crimes and crime against humanity

    if you have any children under the age of 20 you’ll be just delighted to know that they will not se out their lifetime with out witnessing a war between USA and EUROPE

    if God blesses America you can shove your God

  • nuzhound
  • Belfast Gonzo

    But surely we would expect the Devil to say that?

  • smcgiff

    Kerry Concedes.

    *Takes America off Christmas card list*

  • James

    “The first time as tragedy, the second time as farce”
    (That “other” Karl)

    If Marx was ever was right I sure as hell hope it is now.

    I got used to crestfallen faces in Ireland last month when I told everyone who asked (and as soon as they picked up the accent, that was the first thing they did) who was going to win the Presidential election in the USA. I know this country, they don’t.

    “SO who did you vote for”

    Kerry. I’ve been for him since the VVAW, through his investigative work on Iran Contra that damned near toppled Reagan, through his effort with McCain to get Uncle Sugar to come clean on Agent Orange, all the way. It was never a choice of two evils for me.

    “Which candidate would play the better role in NI”

    Neither, they don’t need you. And what have you done for them lately?

    Bush is a lame duck and does not need the Irish-American vote. There is an outside chance that a poll-driven Kerry, decks awash with two houses of vengeful Republicans, might do something to avoid impeachment” You know, fly into Shannon, buy some plastic leprechauns, pose with this year’s Rose and boogie out.

    The one certainty of a Kerry Presidency is that it would would highlight Clinton’s involvement for the singular phenomena that it was, especially since the Wise Old Men of the Democratic party took Clinton to the woodshed over his dalliance in the dreary steeples.

    “Which approach works best, in your opinion? “

    Clinton’s by far. NI will never get out of Groundhogs Day unless you are dragged, kicking and screaming. That’s just the way it is.

    “‘Nationalists for Clinton, Unionists for Bush’ “

    Works for me.

  • Mario

    The Vatican has lost?
    The papist lost? lol
    lol

    Who is this ulsterman person? Surely, he is doing a comedy routine.

    Senator Kerry has conceded, and Bush can go ahead and invade Iran and destroy what little hope there was for the middle east and its people.

    Let us pray that the sensible Prime minister Blair comes to his senses.

  • James

    “Bush can go ahead and invade Iran”

    Steady there. Take it easy guys.

    We are broke. Every week we have to finance 7.43 trillion dollars. The dollar is in the toilet and just got worse when the election results were announced.

    The army was so strapped for ordinance that they even took the howitzers we used in California for avalanche control in the Sierras. They are now recalling DISCHARGED veterans.

    We couldn’t take out a punchy amoeba.

    Also, consider that whoever pays the piper calls the tunes. As of this August 50% of all Treasury debt is held by foreign sources. The bulk of that is owned by the Japanese and the Chinese commies who pony up each week. Consider what would happen if they decided to toss a few shekels at other sources for a day or two just to send a wee message.

    Powell just mentioned “reunification” for the first time in a press statement about Taiwan.

    Connect the dots, Sluggiepoos.

  • Davros

    That’s the Plan James –

    Bush Bankrupts USA.

    Halliburton step in and offer 0.001 Cents on the Dollar and buys the lot!

  • Keith M

    willowfield I really think you need to have a mug of cocoa and then count to 100 before posting again.

    “Bush gets much of his support from unthinking, uneducated people. He relies on those who believe Bush is God’s candidate and it is a sin to vote for Kerry. These people are not rational. Most educated and rational people vote Democratic.”

    Every opinion poll and every exit poll that I’ve seen shows that there is little difference between the educational achievement of the supporters of both candidates. I’d love to see the proof behind the assertion that most rational people vote DEmocrat (but I shan’t be holding my breath).

    Yes it is true that some people believe that because Bush has stronger and more clearly stated religeous beliefs that he was the better candidate, but surely empathy is a key point in any candidate’s armoury.

    As for “I have no doubt that many people voted for Kerry rather than anti-Bush.”. Maybe, but listen to what people were saying when asked why the voted Kerry, and almost all refereed to something related to Bush rather than to Kerry. Kerry was the “anti” candidate.

    “I think history tells us that ideologues are dangerous when they get their hands on power.” Thatcher? Reagan? Churchill? Roosevelt?.

    “Are you saying the DUP would be unable to resist the charms of John Kerry desperately telling them to give into Sinn Fein? I don’t think so. You exaggerate American input. It’s barely relevant.”

    Clinton’s charms ere enough to hoodwink Trimble, but I agree that unionism is in safer hands under the leadership of the DUP.

  • davidbrew

    “I think history tells us that ideologues are dangerous when they get their hands on power.”

    well there’s no danger of Trimble falling into that camp Willow. He makes Nev Chamberlain look like Osama Bin Laden

  • willowfield

    Keith M

    Every opinion poll and every exit poll that I’ve seen shows that there is little difference between the educational achievement of the supporters of both candidates. I’d love to see the proof behind the assertion that most rational people vote DEmocrat (but I shan’t be holding my breath).

    70% of Bush supporters thought Saddam Hussein was connected to 9/11 and the WMDs had actually been found. ‘Nuff said!

    If you really doubt that among Bush’s core support is the fundamentalist religious right and he appeals to core “convictions” (freedom/faith/flag) rather than more sophisticated reasoning, then you dno’t follow US politics very closely.

    As for “I have no doubt that many people voted for Kerry rather than anti-Bush.”. Maybe, but listen to what people were saying when asked why the voted Kerry, and almost all refereed to something related to Bush rather than to Kerry. Kerry was the “anti” candidate.

    So? Are people not allowed to decide their vote because they oppose a candidate? Given a choice between Gerry Adams and Mark Durkan, would you not vote for Durkan on the basis that you are anti-Adams but not pro-Durkan?

    Thatcher? Reagan? Churchill? Roosevelt?.

    I hardly think Churchill or Roosevelt were ideologues. Both were pragmatic. Thatcher and Reagan were restrained by the military power of their opponents.

    Clinton’s charms ere enough to hoodwink Trimble, but I agree that unionism is in safer hands under the leadership of the DUP.

    I think Clinton’s role was more to be nice to the Provos and encourage them to play ball rather than to “hoodwink Trimble”. You exaggerate his importance. But I see you accept my point that this presidential election wouldn’t have affected unionists.

  • D’Oracle

    The righteous smote the Evil-Doers !

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Irony of Northern Ireland politics #3927492720

    Here we have a president who is anti-rational and who rows back on the enlightenment values that gave rise to the reformation. This is a president who: blurs the line between the temporal and the spiritual; who explains policy decisions by talking about God’s will; who portrays himself as God’s chosen ruler on earth; who proudly proclaims his values and feelings to be superior to rationality and scientific inquiry; who claims infallibility (or at least says he has never made a mistake yet); who seeks to expand the faith (in this case Freedom and Democracy TM) through military conquest of benighted lands; who champions faith in inverse proportion to his disdain for science; and who has achieved unchecked personal power.

    Unionists – overwhelmingly Protestant – support this president and his central contribution to world history – which is a full frontal assault on the enlightenment. Nationalists – overwhelmingly Catholic – despair at the emergence of a latter-day papacy.

    Which just goes to show that we are nothing more than narrow, sectional sectarians who couldn’t care less about any issues that soar above our own three-inch-high horizons.

    Everything else here is baloney. Our view of the US presidency, like everything else, is seen through the prism of our oppressive hatred of themmuns.

  • Davros

    Quite a few “Irish” Catholics voted Bush BP 🙂

  • Billy Pilgrim

    I know. But I suppose one would expect a papist to support the restoration of the papacy. It’s the children of the enlightenment I am surprised at.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    PS Davros.

    Why do you have such strong feelings of antipathy towards Irish Americans?

    (Apologies if I have misunderstood your feelings.)

  • Davros

    How long have you got Billy ? 😉

    I don’t dislike all Irish Americans. Far from it. But I do resent those that I label the American-Irish who funded and supported terrorism in my country. As a generalisation they are right wing and I’m not. They are racist and I’m not. They support Israel and I don’t.
    I dislike their ethno-sectarian elitism.
    THOSE Irish Americans I dislike intensely.

    Politics aside, Irish Americans are people. Good and Bad.

    and as ever , I have a quote 🙂

    Edna Longley –

    According to Longley, ‘Irish-American “weltschmerz” is responsible for introducing psychobabble, as well as Riverdance, into the theatre of Irish memory’, a charge confirmed for her by ‘the incidence of “trauma” and “repression”’ in Irish Hunger, the 1997
    collection of essays edited by Irish-American senator Tom Hayden.6

    Page 251, Margaret Kelleher
    Hunger and history: monuments to the Great Irish Famine

    Textual Practice 16(2), 2002

  • Mario

    What do you think of Argentinians of Irish ancestry?
    🙂

  • willowfield

    Billy Pilgrim

    Agree largely with your post, Billy, but I wish publicly – as a unionist – to disassociate [or should that be dissociate?] myself from any support for Bush whatsoever. I am a strong opponent of his particularly ugly, irrational, delusional kind of politics which are of benefit only to the few.

    Can’t understand why so many unionists support him, although here are my guesses:

    – David Brewster types who are actually unashamed to be “conservative”
    – instinctive support for crude “anti-terrorist” message
    – belief that a Kerry presidency would benefit nationalism