GAA in breach of equality measure?

DUP councillor Roy Gillespie claims that GAA rule 14a, “discriminates against British firms and all their equipment should be of Irish manufacture”. However, SDLP councillor Declan O’Loan believes it’s simply a tactic for stalling a

  • Davros

    I Know I’m a pedant George, but a duplicate is something copied which does not vary from the original.

    But here’s something from page 5 of the PDF:

    Rules
    9 The Rules of the Association shall be printed
    in Irish and in English, and in the event of
    conflict the Irish version shall prevail.

    Can an Irish Speaker have a look at the rules in Irish and see if this is merely a matter of translation ?

    Possibly someone could explain Rule 11 as well.

  • George

    Davros,
    that is also my understanding of duplicate. When I wrote two versions I meant that they were the same, maybe I should have written “two copies”.

    Anyone got a link to the GAA rules? The one Mick gave higher up in the thread doesn’t seem to work.

  • Davros

    GAA website George ๐Ÿ™‚

    You’ll find the Links in “Official Reports”
    as GAA Official Guide 2003 and GAA Official Playing Rules 2003 to the Right of the Coca Cola International Rules Ticket Information Story

  • Davros

    Quick flick through some GAA documents –

    “our British Province” is a neat way of describing us.

    Assets of Billions ? Impressive.

    In The Outgoings ( Match Expenses) :
    Gardai and Security

  • Fraggle

    “someone should get onto the european commissioner responsible for internal markets about this issue

    That would be….Charlie McCreevy…

    Posted by: Ciarรกn Irvine”

    I was wondering how long it would take someone to catch on. lol

  • Fraggle

    I think it is very inclusive that the GAA would get people with irish names to translate them into english in accordance with this rule. maybe they should translate names into ulster scotch too.

  • George

    Thanks for that davros but my PC comes up with an “object format badly labelled” error (whatever that is) so I can’t open any of the files.

  • Davros

    Can you open other pdf files George ? If you can, e mail me and I’ll happily send you the documents.

  • maca

    Interesting thing about the GAA rule book, many many rules are ignored because they are no really workable. The names issue is a good example, should a person with an Irish language name translate their name to English or a person with an English name and no obvious translation make up a name? It’s perfectly acceptable to just put the name down in whatever language it is in. Swedish, German, Swiss names (to mention just a few) don’t translate, but it doesn’t stop them from playing.

    Good posts earlier Davros.

  • Davros

    To some extent there’s a cultural issue Maca. My community, dour and precise, want everything nailed down. What to t’others is flexible to us is Vague and carries loopholes that could be used to evade responsibility.

    I would suspect this is one of the classic cases where to keep everyone on board there’s a limit to what can be changed on paper , even though most in the GAA would happily see certain parts of the constitution rewritten.

    Integrated education with protestant kids playing GAA and learning Irish- would that be a big enough prize for the GAA to consider a big rewrite?

    (Heresy) The GAA already recognises that there is a British Province. What’s so awful about a GAA symbol/flag that carries the Tricolour AND the Union Flag ? There’s no longer any need for a Gaelic Association to be able to State that a 32 County Irish state is a LEGITIMATE aspiration…
    so why not write that out if they are keen on expanding to become inclusive ?

    Trudges off to Stake with packet of Sunny Jim ….

  • maca

    I agree Davros. If it was up to me there would be a complete rewrite tomorrow just to remove any of these contentious points.
    But personally I find it hard to understand the fascination with the book. GAA is played all over Europe, I know the situation there reasonably well and they have often ignored or bent rules to suit.

    “Integrated education with protestant kids playing GAA and learning Irish- would that be a big enough prize for the GAA to consider a big rewrite?”

    I don’t know, maybe. I don’t think they should need a prize anyway. To simply better the organisation in general should be the motivatng factor.

  • Davros

    What I meant by “Prize” was in the sense of a trade-off – would the idea of much greater participation and less hostility from my community not outweigh the upset to some of the hard-liners ?

  • maca

    I see what you mean. Yeah it’s bound to help. At times there is a lot of hostility from some quarters in the unionist community *cough* DUP *cough*

    If the GAA thought that Unionists might actually be interested in the sports and not so against it then change ‘could be’ easy enough, IMHO.

    First step could be to stop with the insults (as seen here recently) as that drives “progressive” GAA people away.

    (hope that doesn’t come off sounding too harsh, that’s not my intention, just that some Unionist Sluggerettes have gotten quite insulting on some of the GAA discussions)

  • Fraggle

    Davros, that sweeping statement regarding your community being ‘dour and precise’ isn’t entirely accurate. How about the precise rules regarding lisburn council banquet invitations? Dour and precise when it suits some people from your community, flexible the rest of the time.

  • Davros

    Like all generalisations , it wasn’t meant to be taken as scripture Fraggle- it was a light-hearted reference to how we are seen by many on t’other side:)

    Maca- if the overtly political material went then so would most -but not all- of the overt hostility – although it would take time for attitudes to change. Some will never change, but is that a reason for never trying to move on ?

    The GAA split in the 30’s over this issue of politics.

  • davidbrew

    The names are given in English and in Irish, hardly a stumbling block:

    David Brewster = Daithi Brewster says George

    actually Daithi Macgruthair I believe. But the point is I call myself what I want, not what some loony linguistic fascist says. If I wanted to practise law in the Republic my certificate would helpfully have translated my name into Irish whether I wanted it to or not.

    It’s not my culture, and if you need to impose it on others it shows how weak it is. So yes, its sectarian, because its promotes one group against another-nothing to do with religion.

    I would actually be appalled if the IFA-incidentally the original all-Ireland football organisation from which nationalists in the south engineered a split-were to be as sectarian as in my example. I not you have the good grace not to add hypocrisy to ignorance by trying to distinguish the GAA from my example.

  • Davros

    Letter in Sunday Business Post today –

    ouch!

  • George

    Davros,
    I set this one up just for Davidbrew: seoirse@hotmail.com
    I’m not probably not Anglo-Saxon enough to have the right to own george@hotmail.com.

    Davidbrew,
    think you’re going a little over the top with your linguistic fascism. Refusal to even recognise another language’s right to exist is linguistic fascism.
    A cultural and sporting organisation asking its members, who joined voluntarily, to use the language of the culture the organisation is trying to promote is not linguistic fascism.

    Your definition of sectarianism is extremely broad and would certainly include the British state, the DUP and the UUP. In fact, throw in the U.S. and Ireland who have God in their constitutions.

    “If I wanted to practise law in the Republic my certificate would helpfully have translated my name into Irish whether I wanted it to or not.”

    That is not anything to do with preference of one group over another, that is because Irish language speakers have the right to do their business through Irish, that includes reading your certificate.

    You are confused on this issue. It would be linguistic fascism if they didn’t have that right. Do you wish to deny them that right?

  • Davros

    I enjoy listening to RT

  • George

    Davidbrew,
    checked out your certificate story with a lawyer friend of mine who practises in Dublin and is a non-national and he said he never heard of such a thing. One of those myths perhaps?

    He did have to do an Irish exam though which was quite a burden considering he’s not Irish.

  • George

    Interesting GAA guide,

    I see naming clubs after Mairead Farrell, Kevin Lynch etc. is only allowed because they are dead.

    So if Mairead hadn’t been gunned down in Gibraltar there’d be no club named after her.

    It’s the same in Italy, incidentally. Napoli want to name their stadium after Maradonna but have to wait for him to pop his clogs.

  • davidbrew

    well George, how would your foreign friend feel if he had to change his name into a language which is not his own before practising his trade? Of course the whole point is you’re aren’t asked-it’s assumed for you. Up here that’s called indirect discrimination. Don’t throw in the red herring of denying the right of the Irish language to exist.

    Yet another incident of ignoring the EU rules on freedom of worker movement because of sad nationalist -and yes,sectarian-detritus.

    I find it interesting you seem to have such a blind spot about the rights of others to be Irish in their own way. What if the GAA said its members had to be white, as evidencing their Irish ethnicity? More than Jason Sherlock would be offended by that. Yup, you can be any colour
    in the Republic, but it’s only ashamed of those who are Orange.

    It seems the GAA let us be Gaelic or outsiders- we can’t be Irish on our terms. Which suits me fine actually, because the greatest saviour of the Union is the incapability of Nationalism to accommodate Ulster Unionists. You’re doing half our job for us! It’s just the hypocrisy we can’t stomach.

    Perhaps the DUP would have to change their names to stand for election in the brave new tolerant Ireland- they might prefer French of course-“votez Pierre Fils de Robin!”

    And don’t presume I;m Anglo Saxon- I’m as good a celt as you

  • Fraggle

    that is if any of us are actually celts at all david. :p

  • Davros

    I had David down as a ‘Gers man ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • maca

    David, you wouldn’t have to translate your name. So this whole argument about the names is silly.

  • davidbrew

    actually dundee davros, though the light blues are almost up there with the dark blues at the moment

    BTW can anyone tell the supporters of the RoI that their team don’t actually play in green and white hoops?

  • davidbrew

    no maca-it’s not silly. It would be translated for me, whether I wanted it to be or not. My name is mine, not the property of the state to amend as it chooses. It seems we’re expected to call the Irish Prime Minister Taioseach- “Great chief” if I recall correctly (cue thousands of corrections)- asduring the talks at Stormont we were told there was no term in the Irish constitution as PM. That’s fine-though noone talks about Bundesdkanzler Schroder-for a name, but a title can of course be changed-except, apparently Bertie’s

  • maca

    It is silly.
    “It would be translated for me, whether I wanted it to be or not.” Not it would not be translated if you didn’t want it to be. As a club memebr you would tell them what your name is, and that’s it. As you said yourself “My name is mine”, it would be your decision.
    “not the property of the state to amend as it chooses”
    the state has nothing to do with it.

    “It seems we’re expected to call the Irish Prime Minister Taioseach”

    Well “Taoiseach” IS the correct term to use in Irish & English. You’ll notice we don’t call Tony Blair “Taoiseach” because in the UK government Prime Minister is their correct term.

  • davidbrew

    rubbish-do you call the Japanese Prime Minister the takashita or whatever his title is in his native tongue. Is the great chief of Morocco the Megasorearse when you read about him in the Irish Times.

    Taoiseach is not an English word, yet the obvious sensitivity of Irish nationalists has forced dozens of English Ministers to mangle it into a cross between teashop and tissue, rather than just call him PM.
    And why not an exotic Gaelic name for the Minister for Sport etc. I don’t particularly mind it, but it’s just silly to cloak part of the panoply of Oirishness round one but not all Ministers.

    and you’re wrong about the Irish law Society’s certificates BTW, though I’m glad we agree about the principle involved

  • maca

    You can rant and rave in your anti-Irish way all you want David. Taoiseach is the term we use in English, end of story. And it’s not just one name, we use it for a number of positions. We also use Irish terms for many things, such is life.
    What the Japanese or anyone else does is absolutly irrelevant.

  • George

    Davidbrew,
    I in no way implied you were more or less Anglo-Saxon than myself (who has a fair bit of Angle blood), unless of course you happen to have a controlling interest in http://www.hotmail.com.

    My mainland European friend hasn’t had to change his name to practise and said none of the “West British” colleagues did either (his phrase not mine) so I don’t know what you are talking about here. He did have to pass an Irish test to prove he had a “working knowledge” which he managed after a bit of effort.

    As for ignoring EU rules, have you ever worked in another country or tried to have your qualifications recognised? I have and can tell you that generally they aren’t. Try practising law in Germany and see how far you get.

    So your comment on “freedom of worker movement because of sad nationalist -and yes,sectarian-detritus” just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

    Where are you going with the Jayo analogy? Have you ever been in the Law Library in Dublin? I would say that a heavily disproportionate % are Protestant. Does that make it sectarian? I feel it’s you who has the blind spot.

    As for the GAA, it was an organisation and not a political party running the country last time I looked. Every leader of Stormont, on the other hand has been a member of the Orange Order. Bertie is a fan of Manchester United not the GAA. Who is being the hypocrite here?

    The Irish fans did sing along with the French national anthem at the weekend alright. We do feel a close cultural link with them, mainly becasue they have always shown us respect. Having seen the scenes at Old Trafford, more respect than the Welsh and English have for each other obviously.

  • George

    Davidbrew,
    what you have to do in section six is to provide your name and address in Irish for the Irish version of the certificate of admission. In sections 1,2 and 3 you give your title, surname and forename.

    There are English and Irish versions of this document.

    If you had the name Andriy Schevchenko (the man from AC Milan) and wanted to be a German lawyer you would become Andrej Schewtschenko.

    All Eastern European names are spelt differently in the German language just like many English names have Irish versions. I trust you’ll be calling them sectarian too.

    FYI, the Law Society is campaigning to have the compulsory Irish exam removed for non-nationals like yourself and to replace it with a list of those competent in the Irish language to satisfy the Irish constitution’s requirements.

    I agree with the Law Society on this, but not with you on removing the Irish version of the certificate of admission.

  • Davros

    George Posts “We do feel a close cultural link with them, mainly becasue they have always shown us respect. “

    How is that “cultural link” caused by showing respect George ? The Main cultural link would be based round religion.

  • Davros

    We accept that some forms of discrimination are good and we accept that some forms are bad.The issue becomes who decides ?

  • davidbrew

    Gosh George you have tracked this one down haven’t you. Well yes if Mr Shevchenko has to change his name-as opposed to spelling- that is sectarian. Even the unfortunate Celtic footballer Rafael Scheidt is entitled to use his own name, no matter the ridicule that may have caused in Glasgow! Noone should have to translate his name or any other aspect of his identity for a formfiller. It’s a basic right-just as a lawyer here can use the Irish version of his name if he wishes-and a few do. Imagine the howls of dissent if I obliged him to translate it into English.

    I know and agree with you about the ILS and Irish examination, and the number of Irish Protestant lawyers -though equally there is a disproportionally large number of RC lawyers in NI in comparison to population share, many of whom have complained about British trappings of office (e.g. QC’s oath). Sauce for the goose …

    EU rules in theory and practice are a different matter, but again you’re right.

    As far as Bertie the hypocrite is concerned, it suggeste to me that he knows where the votes are. I bet he’s cheered the Dubs at Croke Park when is suited him. It’s hardly a slam dunk point to claim his following of the Red scum as a sign of tolerance. In fact you’ve given me another reason to dislike him. Bet John Bruton supports Arsenal.

    And how many members of the Dail aren’t members of their local GAA clubs, I wonder? Look at the number of players who have gone on to public office, from Jack Lynch onwards.

    As for tolerance of other teams by RoI supporters -good for them-though their failure to worship at the feet of Bobby Pires is unforgivable . Perhaps you will be surprised by the hostility we show Beckham FC at Windsor too. Like the Welsh and Scots, its the resentment towards that part of the Kingdom which we built for them and which fails to recognise us for our achievements

  • davidbrew

    davros-I think the cultural link between the French and irish is that the French had the endearing characteristic of historically trying to invade GB, and sending troops to help in rebellions in Ireland -funny how there’s no similar public empathy with the Boers:-)

    maca -I’m not anti-Irish, though how typical that you reach for that slur when unable to argue. I’m a type of Irish that you can’t accommodate in the nationalist mindset. Remove the blindspot, and het presto, our problems are half solved.

  • Davros

    That’s a historical link David ๐Ÿ™‚
    Of course there are several cultures in France, just as there is more than one culture in Ireland.

  • maca

    David, my conclusion that you are anti-Irish language (since we were discussing a language issue here) is based on your own opinions which you are offering here.

    I’m not a nationalist and have no problems accepting other “forms of Irish”.
    Regarding blindpots, i’d recommend you take a look in the mirror.

  • maca

    excuse the typo: blindspots

  • George

    Davidbrew,
    like any good lawyer you know the answers to the questions you pose so I know you know you don’t have to change your name into Irish to practise law here.
    These are just things you have to do when you have two official languages.

    As for members of the GAA, I can only speak for my constituency, Dunlaoghaire-Rathdown, formerly Kingstown.
    Fiona O’Malley – not a member
    Barry Andrews – I would be amazed
    Ciaran Cuffe -Rugby and of course Dun Laoghaire golf club
    Mary Hanafin – could be but never heard anything about it and would be surprised
    Eamon Gilmore – Not a chance

    Former Taoisigh I would say were/are most probably not members of the GAA (maybe someone can correct me): – Charles Haughey, Garrett Fitzgerald, Sean Lemass, John Bruton, Liam Cosgrave, WT Cosgrave, Bertie Ahern,.

    If they are/were, I never heard it mentioned.

    The other half, namely Dev, was of course a member.

    As for the OO in NI. What a difference.
    Stormont 1921-1972

    Of the 95 non cabinent Unionist MPs, 87 were Orange Order members. The remaining 8 were women.

    Only three members of the cabinet during this period were not Orangemen.

    Of the 56 Unionist members of the Westminster parliament in the same period, all but two (both women) were lodge members. Every Prime Minister of Northern Ireland during the period 1921-72 was an Orangeman.

    I rest my case m’lord …

    P.S. who will the Northern Irish wearing England tops be supporting?

    Davros,
    “The Main cultural link would be based round religion.”
    Not at all. It would be more political than religious. Where do you think we got the idea for a republic, a tricolour etc.

  • davidbrew

    point 1 taken maca
    please don’t make me look in the mirror-that’s too cruel a punishment

  • maca

    Don’t be puttin yourself down David, there’s no need for that.

  • davidbrew

    ah another superfluous history lesson from George-perhaps I should counter by asking how many members of the first Dail were IRA men. Or perhaps not. Thanks for comparing me to a good lawyer, no matter how undeserved.

    Current Unionist MPs who are Orangemen-Trimble (apparently), Beggs, Smyth, Burnside, Dodds, Donaldson. Not -Hermon, Robinson 1, Robinson 2, Campbell,Paisley. None of the members holds senior office.

    OK so Garret’s obviously the fat wimp who never played sport at school, but I bet he turned up at Croke Park for the All Ireland final when Taioseach, as have all the rest. And if Bertie isn’t exactly a GAA nut, he’s certainly shovelled enough public cash into developing Croke Park. I’m not suggesting they played the game, but I’ll bet most TDs forked out a few punts by way of subs, especially the further south and west you go. Obviously the case of Kingstown is atypical-sort of like North Down, only with class.

    BTW -“Where do you think we got the idea for a republic, a tricolour etc.”…and the reign of terror, presumably.

  • Fraggle

    david, is it not the case that paisley has his own orange order?

  • George

    Reign of terror? This is Ireland you’re talking about.
    Rain of terror maybe.

    Watching a GAA game is now enough?
    How many of today’s unionist MP’s have attended Orange Marches? All I’d say.
    How many have been at 11th Night bonfires where my national flag is ritually burnt?
    Flame of terror.

  • Ringo

    David

    They don’t come any further west than Galway West and of the five TD’s here only Eamon O’Cuiv would be identified as having any ties in the GAA – and he’s Dev’s grandson. It is a stereotype that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

    Of the old holy trinity of the church, the GAA and and the politicians that used to run the country, perhaps the stongest ties still remain between the GAA and clergy. The amount of clubs especially in rural Ireland where the local Parish Priest is the club president or some other fancy title is a bit sad.

  • Ringo

    David

    They don’t come any further west than Galway West and of the five TD’s here only Eamon O’Cuiv would be identified as having any ties in the GAA – and he’s Dev’s grandson. It is a stereotype that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

    Of the old holy trinity of the church, the GAA and and the politicians that used to run the country, perhaps the stongest ties still remain between the GAA and clergy. The amount of clubs especially in rural Ireland where the local Parish Priest is the club president or some other fancy title is a bit sad.

  • Davros

    Davros,
    “The Main cultural link would be based round religion.”

    Not at all. It would be more political than religious. Where do you think we got the idea for a republic, a tricolour etc.

    Culture is different from politics George.

    The republican tradition in Europe originates with Cromwell and chums. The French Republican tradition is very different from the ultra-nationalist Irish Republican tradition ๐Ÿ™‚

    Your words below don’t make sense

    “We do feel a close cultural link with them, mainly becasue they have always shown us respect. “

    I don’t understand how you can claim a close cultural link (mainly) because they have shown you respect ?

    You could say that there is a fraternal bond, a special relationship, but that’s not a cultural link. I think what you are reflecting is that in the Anglo-French Imperial contest “your Ireland” supported the French, as “your Ireland” supported the Spanish in the past and to some extent were ambivalent over Imperial Germany – One Nationalist leader even going so far as to say that it was Irelands duty to take the side of Catholic Belgium against the Protestant Kaiser.

  • Dag

    Davros – I liked your comments in your last post to George, about the French/German friendships. I always feel sorry for poor old Poland, caught between giants. Ireland was never so. Back of the woods. The problem with Ireland was – knowing that no power was coming over the Atlantic, Arctic or the south Atlantic, England could bide its time. Thus – when Protestants & others were being massacred in the 16-somethings she could sit back and say, well, let’s have a rest, we can deal with Ireland in our own time.

  • Dag

    Davros – I liked your comments in your last post to George, about the French/German friendships. I always feel sorry for poor old Poland, caught between giants. Ireland was never so. Back of the woods. The problem with Ireland was – knowing that no power was coming over the Atlantic, Arctic or the south Atlantic, England could bide its time. Thus – when Protestants & others were being massacred in the 16-somethings she could sit back and say, well, let’s have a rest, we can deal with Ireland in our own time.

  • Davros

    That’s an interesting view of history Dag ๐Ÿ™‚
    There was a time when England was the one caught between -trapped between Ireland,Scotland, France and Spain. Ireland did after all Colonise part of England for several generations.It was Ireland that was the ‘bully’ originally. After all, that’s how St Patrick arrived here. What goes round comes round.

  • maca

    “Ireland did after all Colonise part of England for several generations.It was Ireland that was the ‘bully’ originally. After all, that’s how St Patrick arrived here.”

    Is there really a comparison there Davros? Part of England for a few generations compared to …? ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • Davros

    Look at it this way Maca- Ireland likes to play at being holier than thou. It wasn’t as if Irish colonists woke up one day and held a meeting – dicussed their occupation , decided that what they were doing was immoral and voluntarily left the areas in England, Scotland and Wales that they had colonised ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • Dag

    My knowledge base needs widening- I know irish settlers went to Wales and Scotland (they were kicked out, eg. out of west Wales by Ceredigion, a tribal leader who came from Scotland (hence Cardiganshire). But England? You are not referring to the cheap labour, surely?
    Holier than thou – this would be the victim mentality you are referring to here. I would go along a bit of the way with you there. (But some English, as well as some Irish, have in the past both had this holier than thou mentality. I have been well blasted in England by folk for a multitude of crimes committed by the Irish against the English. Despite impressions from the media, the irish are very unpopular in sectors over here.

  • Davros

    A chunk of Cornwall was colonised Dag.

  • davidbrew

    Fraggle
    no,Paisley is not a member of the Independent orange order which is 100 years old, formed from a row about the apparent weakness of the Unionist leadership of the day (so no change there)

    George-you might gloss over the reign of terror in Cork in the 1920s, and the attacks throughout Ireland, including attacks on aristocrats and their property (another idea nicked from Robespierre?)but the victims and their descendants can’t dismiss the IRA as a bunch of boisterous boys having a laff. That’s not to mention their spiritual and political heirs in the current murder gang

    “How many of today’s unionist MP’s have attended Orange Marches? All I’d say.
    How many have been at 11th Night bonfires where my national flag is ritually burnt?”-you post.
    I very much doubt than any Unionist MP has ever attended a bonfire on the 11th night, which are the preserve of the working classes-not the type of place Lady Sylvia Hermon easily frequents.

    There are no Orange “marches”, only parades, and you’ve posted long enough on this site to know by now that the term you use is objected to by the Orange Order. Please amend your terminology.

    I’m sure Unionist MPs not in the order don’t attend, because they are actually working at Westminster. The last Tory givernment even listed business on the 12th in the hope some UUp MPs would stay away, but they all flew over-even the Orangemen, who of course missed part of their parades- to vote against John Major.

    Ringo-thanks for the perspective.

  • George

    Davidbrew,
    actually I never heard the “parade” good “march” bad before and I honestly don’t see how use of either word could cause offence. This is from Webster’s dictionary:

    Parade:
    (Noun) A ceremonial procession including people marching
    (Verb) March in a procession.

    March:
    (Noun) A procession of people walking together
    (Verb) March in a procession

    Could you please tell me the difference?

    Coming from the Protestant bastion of Dun Laoghaire I can tell you we had zero house burnings during that period while in Belfast in the same time 23,000 Catholics were forced out of their homes, a quarter of the population.

    I never met Granddad George as he died before I was born but my father said there were no mobs trying to burn down their tiny terraced house in Dun Laoghaire and his employer Old Mr. Goggins still has a pub there today. Not all southern Protestants were members of the ruling aristocracy you know.

    I’ve read all Eoghan Harris has had to say about the burnings in West Cork but I find it strange he never mentioned the biggest burning in the county, namely the burning of Cork city by the British (is that terror?). The British did build the new city hall in 1926 as compensation though. Does that make them guilty of a crime?
    I’ve tried and tried to find out how many Protestants died during this “reign of terror” you speak about and have come up with a total of 11 in Bandon in a massacre after an IRA man was shot. Why do you compare this with a time in France when thousands were guillotined and over 200,000 were arrested?

    I recommend you read what Margaret Bowen’s The Last September.

    Davros,
    “It wasn’t as if Irish colonists woke up one day and held a meeting – dicussed their occupation , decided that what they were doing was immoral and voluntarily left the areas in England, Scotland and Wales that they had colonised ;)”

    Are you advocating armed struggle?

  • Davros

    What I’m arguing for is an honesty in History George. To pretend that Ireland was a blushing virgin ravaged by England is as dishonest as to claim that the IRA protected the interests of the Catholics of NI or that the Loyalist paramilitaries have been benefactors of the Protestants of NI.

    The emotive nonsense advanced by 19th century nationalists and those still clinging to their judgemental construct is as childish as labelling Lions bad because they eat cute Gazelles.That republicans think that events of hundreds of years ago confers morality on disappearing people or “executing” 15 year old boys is dangerous. That they try to elevate events of hundreds of years ago to equate to, or surpass wrongs of the 20th Century is tragic. Cromwell in Ireland ? Pffft.
    Have a look at France in Algeria in my lifetime …but wait, the Brit’s cannot be blamed. Penal Laws ? Bad Britain- but mention that penal Laws were being applied in other parts of Europe and it’s a different ball-game entirely.

  • George

    Davidbrew,
    sorry Elizabeth Bowen.

    Davros,
    I accept that and had a reply pointing out that the morality of revolution (Irish in our case) is questioned more than the morality of the external ruler based n Martin Mansergh’s very interesting article in Saturday’s Irish Times about the primacy of external force why but typekey foiled me again. I also think the situation of southern Protestants at that time and the role of many of them had in upholding external rule and the so called “reign of terror” has also to be looked at in this context.
    I’ll type a few quotes again.

    “Enforced external rule creates the dilemna for those subject to it, who have a legitimate right to be free, of resisting using only constitional
    rules laid down by the external power or by physical struggle against vastly superior force.
    Why in historical retrospect is the morality of external force so rarely challenged, compared to the constant criticism of the valiant but fallible efforts of either constitutional nationalists or physical force separatists?”

    He mentions East Germany, Poland in 1989 as being fortunate the Soviet Army didn’t intervene and that “Ireland as a pioneer was not so lucky”.

    “If one chooses the yardstick of democratic morality then it is overwhelmingly British policy in Ireland that is indefensible, not the imperfect efforts of successive Irish leaders, whether for or against physical force. We should honour both Redmond and Pearse (as De Valera did). None of this need prevent Britain and Ireland being close and friendly neighbours and partners today.”

    He concludes:
    “Progress includes recognising the fallacy of treating the issues involved in the struggle for independence and in the later Northern Ireland conflict, as if they were identical.”

  • Davros

    I haven’t been discussing Southern Protestants George. That aside, I would be interested if you could send me that Mansergh article.

  • Davros

    Whoops, I should have said please!

  • maca

    Jayz, if there’s articles going for free count me in too! (you’d swear I was from Cavan!)

  • George

    Unfortunately, I’m a dirty sponger and only have the hard copy bought by someone else.

    Maybe someone with better IT (Irish Times that is) connections or little else to do with their cash can pay the piper to release the tune.

  • Davros

    Ah well, thanks all the same George !

    Speaking of Cavan Maca,

    A mean tight Cavan farmer goes into the offices of his local newspaper to place an obituary for his just recently deceased wife. Being a mean Cavan b*st**d he has only 3 quid on him for the obituary to his wife. He checks with the girl at the counter what the price is for such an add. 1 quid per word mister she replies. But I’ve only got 3 quid on me he replies. Well you can only have 3 words so. What 3 words would you like? The mean Cavan Bas***d thinks for a minute and replies “Mary Clarke died”. He pleads with her if she can bend the rules and allow him more words. The girl being sympathetic decides to check with the boss if they can do anything for the poor farmer . Rules are rules replies the boss, 1 quid per word. The girl returns to the mean Cavan Bas***d with the news. He pleads with her again stating the he has only 3 quid. She realises that a 3 word obituary would be a laughing stock for the newspapers reputation and so agrees to plead with the boss again. He finally agrees to help out the farmer and so says that he can have 6 words for the 3 quid. The girl happily returns to the mean Cavan Bas***d with the good news and asks him what 6 words would he like. The mean Cavan Bas***d thinks for a minute and replies “Mary Clarke died, hay for sale”

  • willowfield

    The GAA rule would appear to be in breach of EC competition rule and should therefore be scrapped.

  • Fraggle

    willowfield, get northern ireland’s commissioner to take it up with McCreevy, why don’t you?

    oh, forgot, NI doesn’t get a commissioner. Try asking mandy.

  • Se

    Saying that the GAA is “sectarian” / political on the basis of a few old trophies etc being named after historical figures that most GAA fans know damn all about is about as fair as alleging that Britain is a sectarian country because their monarch has to be a Protestant.