Nationalists looking for totalitarian rule?

Bob McCartney argues that much of the governments’ line after last week’s talks pushed the idea that the IRA had in principle agreed to decommission and that all that remained were a number of minor details raised by the DUP.

Accountablity he argues is much more central to a fair and honest long term settlement. He further adds that “…it is Sinn Fein and the SDLP who want, not majority rule, but totalitarian rule in their chosen departments. The reason is because their true objective is not fair, effective, and good government for all the people of Northern Ireland, but transitional institutions for their goal of Irish unity”.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Has excellent detail on talks that he was not a participant in, strange one that. Perhaps the article was written even before the talks took place.

    Brilliant how he managed to get the Dr Goebbels mention in. Although he could have followed up with a couple of Nazi or Fascist one liners. He’s losing his touch.

  • smcgiff

    Actually, something has just struck me (I’m a bit slow).

    Now that the DUP are trying to negotiate as opposed to saying No without even thinking about the question, will Bob

  • David Vance

    Bob is spot on.

  • Davros

    What is the gaelic for “Trojan Horse” ?

  • smcgiff

    ‘What is the gaelic for “Trojan Horse”?’

    Belfast Agreement?

    Sorry, can’t help myself sometimes!! ;o)

  • Davros

    LOL ๐Ÿ™‚

  • dave

    Brilliant how he managed to get the Dr Goebbels mention in. Although he could have followed up with a couple of Nazi or Fascist one liners. He’s losing his touch.

    Posted by: Pat Mc Larnon at September 28, 2004 10:42 AM

    What’s up Pat, did you not like the article? does the truth hurt that much?

    As for (Dr Goebbles) lets fact it, every time SF/IRA are mentioned one does have a tendency to think automatically of the Nazi movement of the 1930.

    Many people are of the belief that SF/IRA are using the Same strategy as the NSDAP (Nazi party) Have a private “ARMY” become the largest republican party, etc.

    Does this sound familiar to anyone?

    “The failure of the

  • Davros

    Fair comment Dave ๐Ÿ™‚

  • maca

    What is it about the nazi reference, can’t think up any good arguments of your own and have to resort trying to make a comparison with Nazi sickos?

  • Davros

    History Maca, History ๐Ÿ™‚

    There are similarities and there are differences, but the National Socialist movement is as worthy of Study to warn us of the dangers of extreme Nationalism as the excesses of Imperial history are worthy of study today , especially in the light of US Imperial actions in the Middle East.

  • maca

    Aye Davros I know what you mean. But i think most people just bring the Nazis into it to try to compare IRA actions with that of the Nazis slaughter in the concentrations camps for example. Certainly comparing the parties and their politics is one thing, but that’s not what people like Dave are doing IMHO.

    This ******** typekey thing will drive me over the edge, I swear!!!

  • Davros

    I don’t know Dave well enough yet to speculate as to his motives ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • dave

    Maca

    I never mentioned the act of/or the word slaughter or concentration camps.

    The ideology is similar Germany for the germans, Ireland for the Irish, political thugs, illegal actives, etc.

    Nor did i bring up the subject of Nazis, however that is how some people perceive SF/IRA to be, even hard core republicans give reference to it on republican website maybe it was a little slip of the republican mask, it happens from time to time

    I’m sure Gerry Adams has my best interest at heart, me being British and all that. how dare I be born and raised in Northern Ireland and not be Catholic and Irish, I’m sure he will have a solution to resolve that er…problem.

    AND..remember it took the German people of the 1930s sometime to realise what the Nazi party was about? by the time they did it was too late. For those who vote SF/IRA there is always the SDLP. it not too late, not yet>

  • Davros

    Anschluss Dave … and a similar focussing in on Policing!

  • cg

    “For those who vote SF/IRA there is always the SDLP. it not too late, not yet”

    dave

    You must be a comedian. The SDLP has been tried, tested and found wanting. The Nationalist people of the 6 counties are not prepared to place their voice in the Stoops, er sorry SDLP. They constantly accept less and are only interested in the GFA as it allows some of them a career. They have no intention of using it as a transition towards a United Ireland.

    It does’t suprise me that you would love to see the SDLP representing Nationalism, Sorry mate.

  • Robert Keogh

    It’s quite rich for brits to accuse SF of being nazis – it was a british prime minister that appeased the nazis by ceeding the well defended Czechoslovakian frontier to them, and raised no protest when the Germans re-occupied the Ruhr.

    But hey, when have the brits ever let truth get in the way of an insult?

  • Davros

    well Robert, we Brits don’t commemorate a Nazi Sympathiser ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Here comes that republican airbrush !

  • Cahal

    The whole discrediting political opponents by comparing them to Nazis is getting so old.

    Dave, if I were you, I wouldn’t be packing for the concentration camp just yet.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but the only people ever interned in a Nazi style concentration camps in Norn Iron were generally those pesky Republicans, back in the day. And let’s not forget where the Nazis got the idea from…..Boer war me-thinks.

    It’s a vague, innaccurate, unhelpful analogy IMO. It just paves the way for Republicans to use the Loyalist – Combat 18 link as a come back and so on.

    I may be wrong. Davros, do you really believe that the rise of the Shinners has any similarities with the Nazis? In terms of electoral strategy or thye use of ‘extreme nationalism’ for political gain? Please inform us further of this grave threat. Strange how an extreme right party can be compared to a Socialist party.

    By the way, I noticed somebody finishing a sentence with the letters FFS on this site recently. Whoever it was, that cracked me up.

  • Davros

    And let’s not forget where the Nazis got the idea from…..Boer war me-thinks.

    you-thinks wrong ๐Ÿ™‚ That’s another nationalist sacred cow that deserves to be shot with a LHW ๐Ÿ™‚

  • Davros

    Cahal – there are loads of similarities…
    after all the Nazis also were nominally socialist ๐Ÿ™‚

  • Davros

    I’m off to bed …

    leave ’em laughing!

    Cheney gets a call from his “boss”, Bush.

    “I’ve got a problem,” says Bush.

    “What’s the matter?” asks Cheney.

    “Well, you told me to keep busy in the Oval Office, so, I got a jigsaw puzzle, but it’s too hard. None of the pieces fit together and I can’t find any edges.”

    “What’s it a picture of?” asks Cheney.

    “A big rooster,” replies Bush.

    “All right,” sighs Cheney, “I’ll come over and have a look.”

    So he leaves his office and heads over to the Oval Office. Bush points at the jigsaw on his desk.

    Cheney looks at the desk and then turns to Bush and says, “For crying out loud, George – put the corn flakes back in the box.”

  • Cahal

    Whats a LHW?

    “In the English-speaking world, the term “concentration camp” was first used to describe camps operated by the British in South Africa during the 1899-1902 Second Boer War. Originally conceived as a form of humanitarian aid to the families whose farms had been destroyed in the fighting, the camps were later used to confine and control large numbers of civilians in areas of Boer guerilla activity. Tens of thousands of Boer civilians, and black workers from their farms, died as a result of diseases developed due to overcrowding, inadequate diets and poor sanitation.”

    Who am I to argue with the great wikipedia?

  • Cahal

    Newsflash,

    REPUBLICAN SPIES INFILTRATE WIKIPEDIA, INTERNET SUSPENDED

    I’ll get my coat.

  • Davros

    Legally Held weapon. Mischievous Reference to a previous running debate ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Wikipedia is written by the general public Cahal.
    it’s VERY unreliable.

    Look I’m knackered , but That’s VERY easily disproved.
    Remind me tomorrow.

  • maca

    “I never mentioned the act of/or the word slaughter or concentration camps.”

    No you didn’t, but as I said to Davros you are not just comparing party policies when comparing SF to the Nazis. It’s a silly attempt to drag them all down to the level of the Nazis who slaughtered milions.

    Cahal put it well “It’s a vague, innaccurate, unhelpful analogy” and only detracts from any discussion.

  • willowfield

    Robert Keogh

    It’s quite rich for brits to accuse SF of being nazis – it was a british prime minister that appeased the nazis by ceeding the well defended Czechoslovakian frontier to them, and raised no protest when the Germans re-occupied the Ruhr.

    The Second World War is airbrushed out of your history books, is it?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Dave,

    “What’s up Pat, did you not like the article? does the truth hurt that much?”

    It was simply an article that has been written a few hundred times, all you need to do is change the date at the top of the page. Whether it is the truth or not is debatable, I thought it was an opinion piece by Mc Cartney.

    “As for (Dr Goebbles) lets fact it, every time SF/IRA are mentioned one does have a tendency to think automatically of the Nazi movement of the 1930.”

    Does one? The same argument could be made surrounding Orangeism / Unionism. The monopoly of Unionism over the polce. The Catholics being driven from their homes and workplaces. Government controlled killings and torture. The Nuremberg style rallies of Never, Never, Never. Protestant areas for Protestant people. Ulster for white Protestants only. Catholics and the ethnic minorities not wanted, crowds with flags outside homes etc etc etc. All depends where you are looking from really.

    “But Hey Pat it’s not just ordinary people like me who see the similarity of SF/IRA and the Nazi Party.

    Here is part of a letter by Dolours Price 24 June 2004″

    When extreme Unionists start quoting dissident republicans then the bottom of the barrel has really been scrapped.

    “SF/IRA propaganda and Nazi propaganda? I don’t have to stretch my imagination too far to make the Link.”

    If anything it proves the limitations of your imagination. One could use comparisons between Nazism and Unionism if one wished. Even between Unionism and the Afrikaaners and their squalid hold on power. But it is trite and old hat and amounts to no more than trading insults.

    For those of limited debating skills the lowest common denominator is the ‘Nazi’ or ‘Fascist’ slur that does appear on threads from time to time. Even a cursory knowledge of history shows that the comparisons don’t hold water for either nationalists of the Irish persuasion or indeed pro British nationalists.

    Please Dave try and think of a better insult, how about,’Fenian bastard’. Haven’t heard that one for a long time.

  • willowfield

    That should be “Afrikaners” – only one ‘a’.

  • Butterknife

    Did we not have this debate some months back? For I can actually remember commenting on the definition of

  • abucs

    When i think of the horrors of Nazism, i think of state sponsored murder, the inability to share land and civility with people of a different hue. I think of the tragedy of the Polish Jews and the near futility of their struggle against that imposed state authority.

    If it’s Sinn Fein that comes to my mind, it’s not to compare them with the Nazi’s.

  • Davros

    OK Cahal. Let

  • Colm

    Let’s be honest

    Concentration camps, extreme nationalism, unyielding ideology, abuses of state power, terrorism, deceptive propaganda, totalitarianism and all the other manifestations of organised human cruelty and deception were not ‘invented’ by any singular community, creed, or nationality. They have all been used to various degrees in all cultures and throughout the world.

    It’s called Human nature. Humans can be cruel as well as kind and history shows that sadly most people will abuse power when in circumstances of unrestrained superiority.

  • maca

    Nice bit of research there Davros.

  • Davros

    Thanks Maca ๐Ÿ™‚

    I agree with a lot of what you say Colm.

    I would add though that nationalism by it’s nature is dangerous – it’s based on the concept of “Otherness” and once you start with an us and them mentality conflict follows.

    And that wasn’t aimed specifically at Irish Nationalism. It applies to British nationalism, Ulster nationalism and all the other nationalisms.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Davros.

    (I much prefer this name to your MR handle over at ATW, by the way.)

    Can we agree to make the distinction between the nationalism of those in power and the nationalism of those who, rightly or wrongly, consider themselves to be ruled by a foreign power?

    Surely for example the French resistance and the British Union of Fascists were nationalists of different stripes?

  • Davros

    I kind of agree Billy…but it’s still risky. After all look at the record of some of the nationalist resistance groups during and after WWII – in the Balkans would be a good example.

    Good to see you back ๐Ÿ™‚

  • willowfield

    Nationalists put the interests of the “nation” above the interests of individuals. Hence Irish nationalists demand a united Ireland because they say the “nation’s” territory covers the whole island and this is more important than the wishes of the people living in the territory. Similarly, German nationalists demanded territorial expansion for similar reasons.

  • smcgiff

  • maca

    plus…what if the entire nation is somewhat nationalist?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    WF

    “Nationalists put the interests of the “nation” above the interests of individuals.”

    Right, going to have to be pedantic here: the `nation’ is the people. That’s what nation means. Individual freedom and national interests are not incompatible. They co-exist in all free societies, though not always without some tension between the two in, say times of crisis or war.

    Now, those of us who support the reunification of Ireland and the creation of new, sovereign alliance between Ireland’s peoples are not opponents of individual freedoms. Surely you do not suggest WF that within a state, each individual should have the right to simply absent themselves from the life of the state? I didn’t realise you were a Godwinian anarchist.

    “Nationalists put the interests of the “nation” above the interests of individuals.”

    This is unfair. If by `nation’ you mean state, then I would say this: states are basically very large organisations that exist to serve a purpose for the people that live within them, or at least a critical mass of the population. If a unified Irish state ever comes about it will stand or fall according to how it serves the interests of a critical mass of the population. It will succeed if it delivers for the great collection of individuals that is the nation. It will be replaced by something else if it does not.

    “Hence Irish nationalists demand a united Ireland because they say the “nation’s” territory covers the whole island and this is more important than the wishes of the people living in the territory.”

    Ah I see, it is not nation or state, but territory you’re talking about.

    True, it is nonsense to invest mystical properties into a piece of land. But that said, there probably isn’t a human being alive who, to one extent or another, doesn’t do just that. However I’d say that mystical pro-unity Pearse-wannabes are in a small minority these days. Can’t one just make the argument that a single state on this small island is just a really good idea for everyone on it?

    (It’s interesting that unionists seem to instinctively see Nazi expansionism as the logical outworking of nationalist feeling. On the other hand nationalists might see it as the logical outworking of imperialism. We might see the holocaust as the extreme but logical outworking of the assumption that some people are better than others, and that some people inherently deserve to be treated as lesser.

    Or in short: trying to understand NI through the prism of Nazi Germany is the biggest waste of time in town.)

  • Davros

    “the `nation’ is the people. That’s what nation means.”

    Dangerous Ground Billy:)
    There are MANY definitions…
    eg : A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality:

    How many nations have existed and still exist on this island if we work on that one ?

    BTW … your mailbox is full…did that second file reach you ?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Davros.

    What I mean is that the word `nation’ specifically refers to people, in a way state words like country and state do not.

    “There are MANY definitions… eg : A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality:”

    No, these are not definitions of `nation’. They are examples of some of the common ties on which nationhood might be based, and you’re right – there are many such potential planks of nationhood. Of course it is not a checklist but these are some of the ties that might bind.

    “How many nations have existed and still exist on this island if we work on that one?”

    Depends on your point of view really, and how narrowly you want to define the nation. Personally I take a broad view: there is one nation on this island, the Irish nation. It includes me and mine, you and yours, and guy living in Moore St who arrived from Nigeria two years ago and his. I know others will disagree, but sure what kind of Irishmen would we be if we didn’t insist on fighting the bit out at every turn?

    “BTW … your mailbox is full…did that second file reach you?”

    It did but I still can’t open the attachment – it’s a problem at this end. Can you do a cut and paste job?

  • dave

    FAO Pat.

    Well put Pat, you defend Irish nationalism, that is your choice.

    I am referring to SF/IRA a terrorists organisation which used the Bomb and the ballot box tactic to gain political power (democrats what are the like)?

    SF/IRA (under new management) decide to change tactics when they realised the road to political power was indeed via ballets and not bullets.

    The same decision was taken by the Nazi party in the 1930s what is the problem?

    Hard core republicans (people who fought for the cause and done time for it) have stated that SF/IRA and the tactics they are akin to that of Nazis, even ROI tds have made similar remarks.

    I am sorry if I have destroyed YOUR ILLUSION of the SF/IRA
    Don’t blame me blame them, they have the private “ARMY”

    I don’t need to concern myself with SF/IRA as a political force, in the years ahead the SDLP will over take them at the ballot box (only my opinion).

    SF/IRA and the Nazi party are they really similar? i suppose that would be a matter of opinion and in Northern Ireland (at the moment) I can voice my opinion.

  • Davros

    I’m all in favour of a civic ‘nation’ Billy. It’s getting the rest of the beggars to agree to one that’s the problem ! But even your attempt to base
    nation on landmass can be very problematic.

    And I’ll pull you up on this bit …
    “there is one nation on this island, the Irish nation.”

    Where does that leave the people of Rathlin and other islands off our shores ? ๐Ÿ™‚

  • dave

    Have picked up the odd trojan virus this past few days,this past hour i have wiped my machine clean and reset.

    is anyone else on this site picking up a trojan virus?

  • maca

    Ya gotta boost your security Dave.
    A good browser/firewall/anti-virus/spyware-destroyer combo will prevent lots of little nasties.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Dave,

    “SF/IRA (under new management) decide to change tactics when they realised the road to political power was indeed via ballets and not bullets.

    The same decision was taken by the Nazi party in the 1930s what is the problem?”

    I think the historical link is a bit off kilter with no comparisons at all.

    “I am sorry if I have destroyed YOUR ILLUSION of the SF/IRA
    Don’t blame me blame them, they have the private “ARMY””

    Believe me Dave having lived her all my life I have no illusions of anything in this place, just experience.

    “I don’t need to concern myself with SF/IRA as a political force, in the years ahead the SDLP will over take them at the ballot box (only my opinion).”

    I think your are in quite a small minority in that one Dave.

    “SF/IRA and the Nazi party are they really similar? i suppose that would be a matter of opinion and in Northern Ireland (at the moment) I can voice my opinion.”

    Is it an opinion Dave or is it an insult used for maximum effect. As stated in my earlier post attempted comparisons can be made across the board
    but are they really valid?
    The attacks on ethnic communities here could be compared to the Nazis, cleansing areas of non whites. Indeed using some of the language of the 1930’s about them being over here taking our jobs etc. That language was used against the Jews.
    But it would be hyperbole and an exaggeration. Nazism was the manifestation of a pseudo political /nationalistic creed the scale of which has rarely been seen. To compare anything in our troublesome little backwater to that does your own arguments a great disservice.