Unionists need a direct line to IRA

After being attacked by Ian Paisley on his suggestion last week that the DUP should cut out the middle men and talk directly to the IRA’s Army Council, Alex Kane argues that this is simply what successive British governments have been doing since 1972.

Being taken to task by Ian Paisley is a little like being sat upon by a large jelly

  • peteb

    Some interesting points raised there.

    To pick up on one point and to expand it slightly – it is worth considering that while Gerry Adams has been castigating the DUP for ‘not engaging with other parties” as part of the overall blame game, and if SF actually believe the propaganda that they do not speak for or negotiate on behalf of the IRA then the same accusation can be levelled at that organisation.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Maybe the DUP could show god faith in the process by doing all in their power to decommission the guns of Ulster Resistance.
    No one doubts for a second that Ulster Resistance has guns. Ulster Resistance was formed by the DUP. Therefore their responsibility is clear enough.

  • David Vance

    Alex is right – successive British Governments have indeed been talking with the IRA for eons -and they were WRONG! Terrorists should not be engaged with – they should be tracked down and brought to justice. I’m sure Alex will agree with that..

  • maca

    But “talk” might just do it David!

  • North Antrim Realist

    Mr Kane is becoming more contentious since he was joined by Mr Stalford on Saturday mornings…….. wonderful what some competition does.

    But ‘hey boys’ keep up the good work of proposing that which could be beneficial, but which will never happen … we all need to be reminded.

  • willowfield

    Pat McLarnon

    The DUP is not inextricably linked to Ulster Resistance (do they even exist anymore?)

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “The DUP is not inextricably linked to Ulster Resistance (do they even exist anymore?)”

    They formed the organisation how can they not be inextricably linked?

    Their weapons are real enough. If weapons are to be decommissioned then so do the weapons of Ulster Resistance. Who else to speak for them but the people responsible for setting them up.

  • Davros

    Can we have proof that Ulster resistance still exists and has weapons – or would that be like telling kids that the bogey-man doesn’t exist ?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “Can we have proof that Ulster resistance still exists and has weapons – or would that be like telling kids that the bogey-man doesn’t exist ?”

    Denial yet again. There was another unionist attempted murder in Derry at the weekend and barely a ripple was raised by those who cry foul over the latest rumour.
    When dealing with unionists one really does require a strong stomach.

  • Davros

    A question pat …and you CANNOT produce any proof that Ulster Resistance still exists or has weapons …. makes a handy Bogeyman to scare the children , eh ?

  • Fraggle

    “you CANNOT produce any proof that Ulster Resistance still exists or has weapons”

    is that the type of balance of proof you’d use if the IRA announced that they’d destroyed their weapons and disbanded?

  • Davros

    Fraggle … I’m not terribly bothered about decommissioning- more important- Adams and P O’Neill say “The war is over”.

    But PIRA is somewhat different to Ulster Resistance. Nobody doubts that they exist and have weapons.
    Pat is desperately trying to pretend that the DUP have an armed wing.

  • willowfield

    Pat McLarnon

    They formed the organisation how can they not be inextricably linked?

    Two ways: they could have severed the link; Ulster Resistance could have disbanded.

    I believe both have happened.

    Now will you stop going on about it? It’s a ridiculous red herring. It’s embarrassing to read your desperate attempts to pretend that the DUP, like PSF, has a terror wing.

    Their weapons are real enough. If weapons are to be decommissioned then so do the weapons of Ulster Resistance.

    Obviously all illegal weapons should be decommissioned.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “But PIRA is somewhat different to Ulster Resistance. Nobody doubts that they exist and have weapons.
    Pat is desperately trying to pretend that the DUP have an armed wing”

    IRA weapons are always different aren’t they? I have no doubt UR exists and that they have weapons. I believe that the DUP formed UR they therefore have an obligation to bring closure on that organisation and its weapons.

    “Two ways: they could have severed the link; Ulster Resistance could have disbanded.”

    Does not absole them of their responsibilty in setting up a terroist organisation that is in possession of a lot of weapons.

    “Now will you stop going on about it? It’s a ridiculous red herring. It’s embarrassing to read your desperate attempts to pretend that the DUP, like PSF, has a terror wing.”

    Unionist weapons and terrorists are not a red herring. They are used to kill Catholics. That is something that does not arouse the ire of most unionists, but it does concern my community. Turning a blind eye to unionist terrorism will not make it go away.

    “Obviously all illegal weapons should be decommissioned.”

    How will the Ulster Resistance weapons be decommissioned? Surely the people who formed them have an obligation to bring this matter to closure. Unionists cannot be allowed to hide over this.

  • willowfield

    Pat McLarnon

    Unionist weapons and terrorists are not a red herring.

    Nobody said they were.

    Turning a blind eye to unionist terrorism will not make it go away.

    Couldn’t agree more. But the point is irrelevant.

    How will the Ulster Resistance weapons be decommissioned?

    As far as I know, Ulster Resistance don’t exist.

    Surely the people who formed them have an obligation to bring this matter to closure.

    If they know anything about them, yes, but I don’t believe they do. The DUP walked away from UR pretty sharpish after they set it up.

    It’s just silly to pretend that UR is the same as the PIRA and that UR is inextricably linked to the DUP. Neither is true and you know it.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “It’s just silly to pretend that UR is the same as the PIRA and that UR is inextricably linked to the DUP. Neither is true and you know it.”

    The DUP formed UR and therefore must take responsibility for their weapons. Unionists have got to realisr that their weapons kill Catholics and therefore are part of the problem. Apologists please take note.

  • willowfield

    Your desperate red herring continues in its silliness. How can the DUP take responsibility for weapons they do not possess or have any control over?

    Why are you so desperate to pursue this nonsense? Presumably as some sort of smokescreen to divert attention away from Provo weapons? Why would you want to do that?

    PS. As a unionist I don’t have any weapons.

  • maca

    Willowfield, Ulster Resistence *may* no longer exist but certainly the people still exist as do the weapons. The DUP or ANY unionists which may have even a smidgen of influence on or connection to these people should take the responsibility to push for removal of these weapons.
    While I certainly don’t think DUP/terrorist links are the same as SF/IRA there are links and the DUP can’t just turn their backs and pretend these people and weapons don’t exist or are not part of their responsibility.

    Same goes for the opposite side obviously.

  • willowfield

    maca

    Willowfield, Ulster Resistence *may* no longer exist but certainly the people still exist as do the weapons. The DUP or ANY unionists which may have even a smidgen of influence on or connection to these people should take the responsibility to push for removal of these weapons.

    They should.

    While I certainly don’t think DUP/terrorist links are the same as SF/IRA

    Pat does!

    there are links and the DUP can’t just turn their backs and pretend these people and weapons don’t exist or are not part of their responsibility.

    I don’t think they pretend they don’t exist. As for responsibility, I can’t see how they can take responsibility for weapons not in their possession or control.

  • Davros

    I have no doubt UR exists and that they have weapons.

    Some people believe that the earth is flat, others believe that there are Alien Lizards trying to run the world and some people even believe the Vatican is plotting to take over NI.

    Could we have some evidence ?

  • maca

    WF

    “Pat does!”
    Pat knows better than me.

    “I don’t think they pretend they don’t exist. As for responsibility, I can’t see how they can take responsibility for weapons not in their possession or control.”

    They ignore those people/weapons and continually focus on IRA weapons. This has to change in my opinion. There’s no reason they can’t focus on both.

    The can and have to take responsibility. Why? Because they are elected by the people and it’s their duty to do their part to build a safe and peaceful society for the NI people. They can because they know who these people are and they are in a position where they can exert *some* degree of influence over these people.
    It’s not hard for them to open dialogue or put pressure on these people, they are living in the same communities afterall.

  • davidbrew

    willow
    the worse form of oppression for a Shinner is to show him the truth

  • willowfield

    They ignore those people/weapons and continually focus on IRA weapons. This has to change in my opinion. There’s no reason they can’t focus on both.

    Focus is on PIRA weapons because the Provos are a would-be partner-in-government, it is unacceptablel to have illegal armed groups in government, PIRA weapons are therefore an impediment to power-sharing devolution, and hence the political process has to deal with PIRA weapons.

    Ulster Resistance, on the other hand, is not a would-be partner-in-government, nor are other loyalist gangs, or indeed dissident nationalist gangs. The political process does not depend on these gangs hence there is less focus on loyalist and dissident nationalist weapons.

    I find it hard to believe that you do not appreciate this.

    The can and have to take responsibility. Why? Because they are elected by the people and it’s their duty to do their part to build a safe and peaceful society for the NI people. They can because they know who these people are and they are in a position where they can exert *some* degree of influence over these people.
    It’s not hard for them to open dialogue or put pressure on these people, they are living in the same communities afterall.

    How do you know the DUP know who these “Ulster Resistance” people are? Does anyone know?

    What needs to be done with the death gangs who refuse to decommission is the security forces should detect and seize their weapons. All parties should support the security forces and press for a security crackdown against the death gangs.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “Why are you so desperate to pursue this nonsense? Presumably as some sort of smokescreen to divert attention away from Provo weapons? Why would you want to do that?”

    Unionists weapons that kill Catholics are not nonsense. We are perhaps getting an iinsight into the true unionist views on decommissioning.
    Provo weapons have been centre stage for years and were on of the central topics at the Kent talks and are being addressed by all parties to the talks. Virtually impossible draw a smokescreen over that. A silly suggestion.

    “Some people believe that the earth is flat, others believe that there are Alien Lizards trying to run the world and some people even believe the Vatican is plotting to take over NI.”

    The same sort of morons believe that the CIA and Mossad are creeping through people s geardens in Andersonstown and that they are electronics experts on the back of watching one TV programme. It takes all sorts.

    “the worse form of oppression for a Shinner is to show him the truth”

    The worst form of politics for a DUPer (ancient or bandwagoner) is to highlight their hypocricy over weapons and their historical links to violence and murder.
    Dancing on a semantical pinhead over the weapons of unionist murder is car crash television, horrific yet compulsive.

  • maca

    Willowfield

    “Focus is on PIRA weapons because the Provos are a would-be partner-in-government, it is unacceptablel to have illegal armed groups in government, PIRA weapons are therefore an impediment to power-sharing devolution, and hence the political process has to deal with PIRA weapons.”

    A very valid point I can see that, but it is “it is unacceptablel to have illegal armed groups” in GENERAL, not just in government. There’s no reason why they can’t tackle all instead of just focusing on one.

    “I find it hard to believe that you do not appreciate this.”

    Of course I can appreciate it, but you don’t seem to appreciate the whole issue. How would you feel if all loyalist guns were removed and only the IRA still had guns. A tad uneasy i’m sure. So focusing only on IRA weapons, which are a deterrant to loyalist attacks, is bound to make the nationalist community uneasy.
    All weapons should be tackled equally by all groups.

    “How do you know the DUP know who these “Ulster Resistance” people are? Does anyone know?”

    Didn’t the DUP start Ulster Resistence? Aren’t there ex-loyalists now in the DUP? Haven’t Unionists politicians met with loyalist leaders on many occassions? Them know alright Willow.

  • willowfield

    Pat McLarnon

    Unionists weapons that kill Catholics are not nonsense.

    Nobody said they were. What are you going on about? Stick to the point.

  • willowfield

    maca

    A very valid point I can see that, but it is “it is unacceptablel to have illegal armed groups” in GENERAL, not just in government.

    Obviously.

    There’s no reason why they can’t tackle all instead of just focusing on one.

    As I said, what needs to be done with the death gangs who refuse to decommission is the security forces should detect and seize their weapons. All parties should support the security forces and press for a security crackdown against the death gangs. This should also be on the talks agenda.

    How would you feel if all loyalist guns were removed and only the IRA still had guns.

    I’d be delighted about the removal of loyalist guns angry at the maintenance of IRA guns and depressed at the resulting failure to establish a power-sharing executive.

    So focusing only on IRA weapons, which are a deterrant to loyalist attacks, is bound to make the nationalist community uneasy.

    The nationalist community should be pressing for a security solution, then.

    All weapons should be tackled equally by all groups.

    Sounds good but it’s not going to happen. Dissident nationalist and loyalist death squads will not decommission. The PIRA death squads are the only ones with any incentive to decommission. Loyalist and dissident nationalist weapons need to be detected and seized in a security clampdown.

    Didn’t the DUP start Ulster Resistence?

    Yes, but it started as some sort of ridiculous vigilante group, not as a death squad. The DUP jumped ship as soon as they started importing weapons.

    Aren’t there ex-loyalists now in the DUP?

    Yes, a few.

    Haven’t Unionists politicians met with loyalist leaders on many occassions? Them know alright Willow.

    In which case they should pass on information to the police, but I suspect the police know more about them than any unionist politicians. Evidence and political will are the problems, not knowledge.

  • Davros

    Unionists weapons that kill Catholics are not nonsense.

    Please produce evidence that Ulster Resistance still exists and has weapons.

  • Davros

    Republicans seem to be arguing for a renegotiation of the GFA over the issue of decommissioning.

    No mention of parallel decommissioning of Loyalist weapons chaps … So what’s with the attempts to say “we are allowed to keep ours while the UDA etc keep theirs ” ?

    The IRA should decommission NOW – not in return for concessions – they aren’t doing anybody any favours and we owe tham no thanks . They should decommission because the overwhelming majority of Irish People, both sides of the border, WANT them to decommission.

  • Davros

    Maca … do you really think that IRA weapons have a deterrent effect ?

    They didn’t at Greysteel, did they ?

    IRA weapons have directly killed many nationalists and indirectly killed by provoking tit for tat killing cycles.

    Deterrence is a horrible concept here.The only deterrent incident that I can remember was the loyalist murder of an innocent Catholic lad after the IRA , from Short strand, shot a lad playing soccer on wasteground … this was the third shooting incident FROM the Short Strand and after the terrible and utterly wrong murder of the young Catholic lad the sniping from Short strand stopped.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “Nobody said they were. What are you going on about? Stick to the point.”

    The point is unionist guns and the ostrich like behaviour of unionist posters. Creating smokescreensand being dismissive will not make unionist guns go away.
    The UR received one third of the weapons smuggled from S Sfrica by British soldier Brian Nelson.
    Michael Stone has admitted sourcing UR weapons for his attacks.
    In a recent book on the UDA the authors state that Adair tried to get his hands on UR weaponry. Begs the question why would the UDA be going after this weaponry if it was not a substantial amount?

    The DUP daliance with terrorism has now caught up with them and they are going to have to account for their actions. The are politicians in the DUP today who have the distinction of forming their own gun running organisation.
    Apologists for unionist violence and terrorism can run but can’t hide from this one.

    Davros can you link to the ludicrous story you printed at 1.34Pm, was it from the Jerusalemn Post?

  • Davros

    What ARE you on about Poison Pat ?

  • Jeremy 1

    I posted a version of what appears below over on

  • chunkyguy

    this thing about the ulster resistance is silly- their formation was seen as a joke in the 80s and prob still are – i think the main concern for nationalists are the uvf, lvf and uda- all the more reason that sinn fein should back the psni and lets dismantle all paramilitary organisations- including marches and parades- i know this would be tough for unionist politicians but like giving up smoking this needs to be done

  • maca

    “their formation was seen as a joke in the 80s and prob still are”

    They did import weapons after all. Not a very good joke in my opinion 😉