New Yorker, can you please elaborate in what way you think I wouldn’t be serious? If you think the answer is an obvious one, please let me know what you think it is, I am eager to learn from those of different opinions to mine.
I will deal with each of the above mentioned attacks here. Forgive the annotated form, I began in short form meaning to go back over them, but it’s preety late now, I hope it’s intelligible.
Enniskillen – targeted the British Army
Tullyvallen – Perpetrated by SARAF, not the IRA
Darkley – Perpretrated by members of the INLA, not sanctioned by them.
Border Campaign – Only targeted RUC members and barracks
Birmingham – didn’t target Northern protestants, doesn’t seem to have gone through the normal IRA command structure, if the IRA were involved.
Warrington – didn’t target northern protestants, was attacking Britain and the British economy.
Bishopsgate – didn’t target protestants, targeted the British economy
Guildford – targeted the British army, not protestants
Bloody Friday – Targeted the economy, apart from one bomb I noticed which was planted on Agnes Rd, this could definitely be regarded as a sectarian attack
Claudy – Killed five catholics and four protestants, in a catholic majority town, not a sectarian attack. Seemed to be targeting the economy
La Mon – Targeted the economy, was a foolish attack considering the likelihood of it being seen as sectarian
Omagh – I was focusing on the PIRA and possibly its predecessors, however this attack too wasn’t sectarian, seeing as it attacked a Catholic majority town.
Abercorn – Appeared to target the British Army who used the upstairs in the restaurant. It killed two Catholics and attacked a restaurant mainly frequented by Catholics so couldn’t be considered sectarian.
Shankill – Targeted the UDA leadership, but the meeting had been rescheduled
Balmoral Furniture Company – wasn’t claimed by the IRA, though widely believed to be by them, an unjustifiable sectarian attack
Bayardo Bar – Targeted UVF members
Newtonards – No fatalaties. Since it was a 700kg bomb, I must assume that this was intentional and that it was therefore an economic target, not a sectarian one
Bangor – Can’t find info about casualties, the 1993 attack which might be the one you’re talking about doesn’t seem to have caused any casualties and again, being large bombs, I would assume that the target was economic then, not sectarian. Please correct me if I’m wrong about the casualties.
Magherafelt – Intentionally no casualties and a mixed religion town, therefore again, not a good sectarian target, likely an economic one.
Banbridge – RIRA, No serious injuries, appears to have been economic again, not sectarian.
Very few of the above seem to come close to being attributable to sectarian motives, this idea that the IRA were sectarian killers doesn’t get challenged enough, despite the very shakey ground it stands on.
I look forward to hearing rebuttals to my above claims, please everyone try and remain calm and respectful.
“Well, the ability to gather a dozen of them to carry out Kingsmill, and then have the rest of the Provisional movement in south Armagh protect them to this very day – that’s a bit of a giveaway.”
It’s hotly contested whether or not Kingsmill was an IRA operation, but even if we assume it was, it would only be one operation amongst many thousands which nearly always if not indeed always targeted members of security forces, not Protestants. Should the entire movement be judged by one operation? (serious question)
SDLP supporter, or anyone else who knows, could you point me to evidence online or off, that the IRA were a “band of sectarian killers”. I ask in good faith, for the purpose of furthering my knowledge, I’m not wishing to stoke any shouting matches.
Dublin outdoes itself at Uncle Tom-ery. There was a very real threat of invasion from two great powers and these men deserted their country in its hour of need. But of course ideological revisionist history demands that we acknowledge Britain as the definition of good and the Nazis as the definition of evil. In reality, Britain wasn’t so great either and deserting your army isn’t a good thing at a time of world war. It’d be a different matter if those who deserted were quietly allowed live as free citizens, but heralding it as ‘a tribute to how far we’ve come’ is castle catholic nonsense, it’s a momument to how far back we’ve gone.
Is anyone else annoyed at Mr. Martin’s blatant hypocrisy? He has the gumption to try interfere in northern politics from his middle-class Cork suburban two-storey. Where was he in 69 or 81? If he was politically active, then he was on his soap-box telling those under fire to try to organise peacefully in fellowship with those shooting at them. And he won’t even put his money where his mouth is and run up North? What a *****.
Barnshee, what do you think of the riots in Limerick in the 1930s and the actions of the state, represented by the Gardaí? A bit of background: they were anti-Protestant riots in reaction to similar anti-Catholic riots in Belfast. In the southern riots however, the Gardaí risked their lives to protect Protestant shops and homes, luckily few people (maybe none, I forget the details) were driven out of their home and businesses didn’t have to shut.
Do you think there could ever come a time when you would trust the southern state to protect the British identity of those living on the island, and were you would vote to join the rest of the Irish people on the island in a single state?
If yes, can you think of anything specific, were it to happen, which would make you feel that those of a British identity would be protected within the southern state? i.e. is there anything the southern state could do to reassure your fears?
I’d also like to point out that there are people of a British identity in the southern state also, apart from the Orange Order march in Donegal every year, there are OO branches in Dublin, Cork and other towns as well as those who don’t see that big a difference between the two islands. RTÉ did a documentary on an OO lodge in Dublin before, you’d find it handy enough through Google, if you’re interested.
In Ireland, neither tribe are actually that interested in the politics of the situation, what they’re really interested in is lording it over the other tribe. Nationalists (both politicians and ordinary citizens) have not taken any practical step towards unification in 90-odd years, all they do is throw a strop or else give out about the other tribe. It might be all the catholic suppression but I’d love it if they could all grow up and actually see things with clear eyes.
First off: The unionists are not just pretending, they are British, they’re not just scared of a UI, they don’t want anything to do with it at all, on principle. For as long as you emphasise your Irishness, you will alienate them because they will react to it by emphasising their Britishness. You should emphasise their Ulsterness, and this as part of Irishness.
How many all-nationalist meetings have their been? Conall points this out above. If any of the nationalist parties (especially the southern ones) actually cared about unification, they would have regular meetings and all sing from the same hymn sheet (especially now that the war is over). We need positive initiatives, especially in the south of an all-island nature, to re-incorporate the north emotionally, the politics will come after that.
Alan N/Ards makes a point that all nationalists should grasp on to and protest about if they were true nationalists, treating northerners the same as southerners, getting free rugby coverage for them as well. Every time you ignore northerners, you are telling them they’re not Irish, every time you say ‘Ireland’ meaning the south, you are telling northerners that they are not Irish, this is why so many of the catholic population say they are not Irish. This is the no. 1 stumbling block to a UI. We might stumble into one through demographics before the Irish population in the north disappears, but it’s not guaranteed and should be worked against regardless.
Basically, nationalists need to cop on, stop moaning about flags and take real steps towards uniting the people, then the politics will sort itself out.
Tweet I’ve been catching up on some reading, recently. Most pleasantly surprised by John Drennan’s latest opus from Gill and Macmillan, Cute Hoors and Pious Protestors… It’s early days yet, but I was struck by this paragraph, part of a dissection of Fianna Fail near the beginning: One of the more fatal consequences of our [...] read our review »
Tweet It took me a long time to warm to advertising agencies. The first time I worked with one I was working in sales management on Fairy Washing Up Liquid. I was due to attend a meeting at which I was to be told what consumers really thought of the brand. I remember my reluctance [...] read our review »
Tweet Bronagh Hinds’ chapter of Everyday Life After the Irish Conflict: The Impact of Devolution and Cross-Border Cooperation [reviewed yesterday] examines women’s political participation points to limited progress in addressing the gender balance of political institutions. The proportion of councillors who are female rose to 24 per cent in 2011 from 14 per cent in [...] read our review »
Comment on Eamonn McCann: “People sometimes say these traditions have gone on forever. No they have not!”
on 24 May 2013 at 4:26 am
New Yorker, can you please elaborate in what way you think I wouldn’t be serious? If you think the answer is an obvious one, please let me know what you think it is, I am eager to learn from those of different opinions to mine.
Go to comment
Comment on Eamonn McCann: “People sometimes say these traditions have gone on forever. No they have not!”
on 24 May 2013 at 4:24 am
I will deal with each of the above mentioned attacks here. Forgive the annotated form, I began in short form meaning to go back over them, but it’s preety late now, I hope it’s intelligible.
Enniskillen – targeted the British Army
Tullyvallen – Perpetrated by SARAF, not the IRA
Darkley – Perpretrated by members of the INLA, not sanctioned by them.
Border Campaign – Only targeted RUC members and barracks
Birmingham – didn’t target Northern protestants, doesn’t seem to have gone through the normal IRA command structure, if the IRA were involved.
Warrington – didn’t target northern protestants, was attacking Britain and the British economy.
Bishopsgate – didn’t target protestants, targeted the British economy
Guildford – targeted the British army, not protestants
Bloody Friday – Targeted the economy, apart from one bomb I noticed which was planted on Agnes Rd, this could definitely be regarded as a sectarian attack
Claudy – Killed five catholics and four protestants, in a catholic majority town, not a sectarian attack. Seemed to be targeting the economy
La Mon – Targeted the economy, was a foolish attack considering the likelihood of it being seen as sectarian
Omagh – I was focusing on the PIRA and possibly its predecessors, however this attack too wasn’t sectarian, seeing as it attacked a Catholic majority town.
Abercorn – Appeared to target the British Army who used the upstairs in the restaurant. It killed two Catholics and attacked a restaurant mainly frequented by Catholics so couldn’t be considered sectarian.
Shankill – Targeted the UDA leadership, but the meeting had been rescheduled
Balmoral Furniture Company – wasn’t claimed by the IRA, though widely believed to be by them, an unjustifiable sectarian attack
Bayardo Bar – Targeted UVF members
Newtonards – No fatalaties. Since it was a 700kg bomb, I must assume that this was intentional and that it was therefore an economic target, not a sectarian one
Bangor – Can’t find info about casualties, the 1993 attack which might be the one you’re talking about doesn’t seem to have caused any casualties and again, being large bombs, I would assume that the target was economic then, not sectarian. Please correct me if I’m wrong about the casualties.
Magherafelt – Intentionally no casualties and a mixed religion town, therefore again, not a good sectarian target, likely an economic one.
Banbridge – RIRA, No serious injuries, appears to have been economic again, not sectarian.
Very few of the above seem to come close to being attributable to sectarian motives, this idea that the IRA were sectarian killers doesn’t get challenged enough, despite the very shakey ground it stands on.
I look forward to hearing rebuttals to my above claims, please everyone try and remain calm and respectful.
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Comment on Eamonn McCann: “People sometimes say these traditions have gone on forever. No they have not!”
on 22 May 2013 at 11:48 pm
“Well, the ability to gather a dozen of them to carry out Kingsmill, and then have the rest of the Provisional movement in south Armagh protect them to this very day – that’s a bit of a giveaway.”
It’s hotly contested whether or not Kingsmill was an IRA operation, but even if we assume it was, it would only be one operation amongst many thousands which nearly always if not indeed always targeted members of security forces, not Protestants. Should the entire movement be judged by one operation? (serious question)
Go to comment
Comment on Eamonn McCann: “People sometimes say these traditions have gone on forever. No they have not!”
on 22 May 2013 at 5:30 pm
SDLP supporter, or anyone else who knows, could you point me to evidence online or off, that the IRA were a “band of sectarian killers”. I ask in good faith, for the purpose of furthering my knowledge, I’m not wishing to stoke any shouting matches.
Go to comment
Comment on Irish Justice Minister: “a tribute to how far we have come as a society”
on 8 May 2013 at 6:27 pm
Dublin outdoes itself at Uncle Tom-ery. There was a very real threat of invasion from two great powers and these men deserted their country in its hour of need. But of course ideological revisionist history demands that we acknowledge Britain as the definition of good and the Nazis as the definition of evil. In reality, Britain wasn’t so great either and deserting your army isn’t a good thing at a time of world war. It’d be a different matter if those who deserted were quietly allowed live as free citizens, but heralding it as ‘a tribute to how far we’ve come’ is castle catholic nonsense, it’s a momument to how far back we’ve gone.
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Comment on Micheál Martin: Legacy of 1916 is to build rather than to divide the Irish nation…
on 22 April 2013 at 1:51 pm
Is anyone else annoyed at Mr. Martin’s blatant hypocrisy? He has the gumption to try interfere in northern politics from his middle-class Cork suburban two-storey. Where was he in 69 or 81? If he was politically active, then he was on his soap-box telling those under fire to try to organise peacefully in fellowship with those shooting at them. And he won’t even put his money where his mouth is and run up North? What a *****.
Go to comment
Comment on Are we settling for a society where the dominant communities are going to remain separate?
on 21 April 2013 at 1:54 am
Barnshee, what do you think of the riots in Limerick in the 1930s and the actions of the state, represented by the Gardaí? A bit of background: they were anti-Protestant riots in reaction to similar anti-Catholic riots in Belfast. In the southern riots however, the Gardaí risked their lives to protect Protestant shops and homes, luckily few people (maybe none, I forget the details) were driven out of their home and businesses didn’t have to shut.
Here’s an article on the issue by a lecturer in History in UCD: http://www.theirishstory.com/2013/01/01/a-limerick-riot/
Would this article alter your view at all on the fate of Protestants in the Irish Free State and later Republic?
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Comment on What does the Irish flag mean to you?
on 8 April 2013 at 2:20 am
BrokenCarpet, DC
Do you think there could ever come a time when you would trust the southern state to protect the British identity of those living on the island, and were you would vote to join the rest of the Irish people on the island in a single state?
If yes, can you think of anything specific, were it to happen, which would make you feel that those of a British identity would be protected within the southern state? i.e. is there anything the southern state could do to reassure your fears?
I’d also like to point out that there are people of a British identity in the southern state also, apart from the Orange Order march in Donegal every year, there are OO branches in Dublin, Cork and other towns as well as those who don’t see that big a difference between the two islands. RTÉ did a documentary on an OO lodge in Dublin before, you’d find it handy enough through Google, if you’re interested.
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Comment on What does the Irish flag mean to you?
on 3 April 2013 at 2:47 am
It’s just a flag.
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Comment on Ignoring the small issue of a border poll, what might a new united Ireland be like?
on 12 February 2013 at 11:22 pm
In Ireland, neither tribe are actually that interested in the politics of the situation, what they’re really interested in is lording it over the other tribe. Nationalists (both politicians and ordinary citizens) have not taken any practical step towards unification in 90-odd years, all they do is throw a strop or else give out about the other tribe. It might be all the catholic suppression but I’d love it if they could all grow up and actually see things with clear eyes.
First off: The unionists are not just pretending, they are British, they’re not just scared of a UI, they don’t want anything to do with it at all, on principle. For as long as you emphasise your Irishness, you will alienate them because they will react to it by emphasising their Britishness. You should emphasise their Ulsterness, and this as part of Irishness.
How many all-nationalist meetings have their been? Conall points this out above. If any of the nationalist parties (especially the southern ones) actually cared about unification, they would have regular meetings and all sing from the same hymn sheet (especially now that the war is over). We need positive initiatives, especially in the south of an all-island nature, to re-incorporate the north emotionally, the politics will come after that.
Alan N/Ards makes a point that all nationalists should grasp on to and protest about if they were true nationalists, treating northerners the same as southerners, getting free rugby coverage for them as well. Every time you ignore northerners, you are telling them they’re not Irish, every time you say ‘Ireland’ meaning the south, you are telling northerners that they are not Irish, this is why so many of the catholic population say they are not Irish. This is the no. 1 stumbling block to a UI. We might stumble into one through demographics before the Irish population in the north disappears, but it’s not guaranteed and should be worked against regardless.
Basically, nationalists need to cop on, stop moaning about flags and take real steps towards uniting the people, then the politics will sort itself out.
Go to comment