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Profile for Turgon

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Latest posts from Turgon (see all)

Turgon has posted 736 times (2 in the last month).

Row over GAA tops at University of Ulster

Fri 11 April 2014, 2:10pm

Tweet Jim Allister recently asked the Stormont Employment and Learning Minister Stephen Farry to: “outline any discussions he has had with the University of Ulster regarding concerns that the proliferation of GAA tops on campus leads to an intimidating atmosphere for many students” Jim has apparently been approached by unionist students complaining about the “chill […] more »

Boston College tapes unlikely to lead Adams to gaol but suggest any truth process is pointless

Tue 25 March 2014, 10:45pm

Tweet The arrest and charging of Ivor Bell has been covered already on Slugger and below Mick has mentioned the fact that Gerry Adams has made himself available to questioning by the PSNI. Although the McConville family remain hopeful many have suggested that it is inconceivable that Adams will be prosecuted. Adams has repeatedly denied […] more »

Forget ethnic thematics: a straightforward response to Billy Hutchinson

Sat 22 March 2014, 8:10pm

Tweet Billy Hutchinson’s explanation for his sectarian murders has been covered below by David McCann. Unfortunately they degenerate into concepts like “Truth recovery”, “ethnic thematics” and such like. The News Letter have provided somewhat more direct responses. From the News Letter: Kenny Donaldson of Innocent Victims United said that Mr Hutchinson’s attempted justification of his […] more »

Alliance and Anna Lo: if you are explaining, you are losing

Sat 22 March 2014, 4:41pm

Tweet Political party conferences and the run up to them prior to an election always seek to promote the party’s candidates. This year’s Alliance conference and its lead up has, however, gone less than wholly according to plan. Anna Lo’s revelation that she would support a united Ireland in the longer term has been a […] more »

Ukraine: impotent activism and the limits of US power

Sat 15 March 2014, 7:30pm

Tweet Tomorrow will bring the referendum on Crimea leaving Ukraine and joining Russia. Most people are aware of the sequence of events: the Ukrainian president turning down a deal with the EU in favour of one with Russia; mass protests in Kiev leading to the fall of the government; the new government being unacceptable in […] more »

Vegetarian Stalinism Part 2: Ready the Gulags on the South Downs

Sat 15 March 2014, 10:34am

Tweet Last month I highlighted the bizarre suggestion by the Green Party that in response to the flooding all government ministers and advisors who were sceptical of climate change should be sacked. Memorably when given the opportunity to refine and tone down this suggestion the leader of the Green Party Natalie Bennett claimed that even […] more »

Proposal to decriminalise TV licence fee avoidance

Thu 13 March 2014, 10:56pm

Tweet The BBC is often accused of a liberal bias most recently by the Today programme’s own John Humphrys. Currently the BBC is paid for by the television licence fee, non payment of which can result in a fine of £1000. Up to 10% of magistrates court appearances are for non payment and if this […] more »

TUV, SDLP and UUP host victims commemoration at Stormont

Tue 11 March 2014, 10:47pm

Tweet Alan has a post on the Alternative Ms. Ulster event hosted by Steven Agnew at Stormont on Sunday complete with the inspiring / daring / indecent, speech/ behaviour by Ms. Park. In contrast yesterday the UUP, SDLP and TUV hosted the third annual day of remembrance for victims of terrorism. 120 people attended and […] more »

OTR crisis begins to abate: totally inappropriately

Tue 4 March 2014, 9:39pm

Tweet The crisis has begun to abate, without the direct threat of Stormont collapsing in the immediate future. Despite various claims from the predictable sources in both former government and pliant media circles this was and remains a major scandal and a colossal indictment of the whole political process. The first suggestion at minimising the […] more »

Hyde Park bombing suspect will not be prosecuted

Tue 25 February 2014, 8:49pm

Tweet The BBC are reporting that John Downey who was arrested and charged with killing four soldiers in the 1982 IRA Hyde Park bombing will not be prosecuted because he was given a guarantee he would not face trial. Downey was arrested in 2013 at Gatwick whilst en route to Greece. From the BBC: ..over […] more »

Latest comments from Turgon (see all)

Turgon has commented 2,501 times (34 in the last month).

  1. Comment on Geraldine Finucane: “A deep wound cannot be stitched over and just left because it won’t heal”
    on 19 April 2014 at 10:48 pm

    Mrs. Finucane’s position seems entirely reasonable. She is entitled to the truth. Additionally although she is not calling for prosecutions those would be appropriate where evidence is found.

    There are three points unionists can make: two legitimately and one non legitimately.

    Firstly she has already had some measure of justice. One man has been sent t gaol for her husband’s murder. More than is the case for many murders.

    Secondly she is insistent on high level collusion being involved and on a specific form of enquiry. She does appear to have prejudged the sort of enquiry she is willing to accept and the only outcome she will believe. That many be a bit unfair of her but considering her position and what has happened to her she cannot be blamed for that. Objectively, however, her demands may be unreasonable in that she will only accept what she already believes needs to be done and what outcome is correct.

    The final and sadly standard unionist response is to claim that her husband was in the IRA. This is not a valid response, demeans unionists who make it and makes them, not Mrs. Finucane, hypocrites. Even if he was an IRA man: he was murdered plain and simple. He was not holding a gun and shooting at soldiers. He was shot in his own home by a loyalist terrorist. His death was not that of Jim Lynagh. Even if he was in the IRA he deserved arrest, prosecution and gaol not a death sentence arbitrarily imposed by the UDA with or without any collusion.

    A form of whataboutery is, however, a reasonable response to Mrs. Finuacane. Whatabout the others murdered: their lives were no less precious and yet in few enough cases have we seen their murderer identified let alone convicted. Also collusion between the IRA and Irish government, British government, various parts of civil society etc. has not been discussed to anything like the same extent as that between loyalist terrorists and the British government.

    Geraldine Funicane’s campaign should be welcomed. She deserves answers: her husband was murdered. Collusion whether it be at high or low level should be exposed. All the other cases should receive exactly the same sort of attention. We have seen in mainland GB vast sums spent on an unsuccessful (and it appears ill-advised and inappropriate) prosecution in relation to PC Blakelock’s murder. Within the last couple of days I saw a newspaper headline with the met pledging to continue to try to prosecute the murderers of Yvonne Fletcher. We need the same sort of obsessive seeking of justice for all the RUC officers and everyone else murdered. The police in the UK are proud that they do not give up looking for a murderer for 60 plus years. Northern Ireland should be absolutely no different.

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  2. Comment on While Britain and Europe’s tectonic plates move, we argue about Orangemen and Ardoyne
    on 14 April 2014 at 9:45 pm

    Such a vote would have a particularly destabilising effect on the unionists, whose natural ties are with Scotland rather than England. They pride themselves on their common Scottish Presbyterian heritage, their Ulster-Scots way of talking and their common passion for Scottish dancing and football, and their children go in their thousands to Scottish universities

    Childish over simplification strikes again. Undoubtedly many Ulster unionists have an affinity with Scotland.

    However, although there are many Presbyterians there are also many CoI, Methodists, Baptists, Congregationalists, Brethren etc. which are much more English or Welsh linked denominations than Scottish. Remember Dr. Paisley went to a Welsh Bible college.

    Ulster Scots speech is an interest for many but is a minority interest. Scottish dancing even more so. Fans of Scottish football are probably (certainly) outnumbered by fans of the English Premier League (that hold good for nationalists and those in the RoI as well).

    Finally yes many unionist (and nationalist) students go to Scottish universities. However, places like Newcastle also have large NI student contingents.

    However, a simplified and simplistic argument is so much more fun. Pigeon holing most / all of a group into a one size fits box tends to say a great deal more about the prejudices of the one doing it than anything else.

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  3. Comment on “That’s the only way I can put,” he said “they sleep with the victims.”
    on 14 April 2014 at 9:05 pm

    I think you are quite right that any overarching process is unacceptable. However, it always was.

    In “the post conflict years” there was absolutely not a consensus on these issues no more than there is now. Furthermore we most definitely should not have had the “good grace” nor anything else to “say sorry to each other and move on.” There was absolutely no mandate to do that. Eames Bradley was roundly rejected as the moral terpitude which it was. Attempting to create such processes is one of the reasons that what you call “goodwill” has gone. Actually in regard to forgetting the loathsome crimes of the past there was not any good will shown by normal people to the criminals of whatever hue.

    I have nothing I need to apologise for nor that I need to be apologised to regarding. That holds good for most people here in Northern Ireland. I was neither victim nor victimiser: just like FJH and most of us.

    There are those who need to apologise: they are the criminals. There are those who need apologised to – the victims. keano 10 sounds like he is deserving of an apology. However, it is his and his family’s right to decide wether they want an apology or justice or whatever.

    Each set of victims has that right and most of those victims mainly want justice not an apology. Denying them that justice seems to be what most of “conflict resolution”, “transformational justice”, “truth” etc. etc. is actually about. Pretending to sugar coat such denial of justice is the business of the likes of “Transitional Justice.” Such lies have been repeatedly rejected and will continue to be so. If that leaves most victims with nothing that seems more acceptable to most of them than the pretences of the “Conflict Resolutions” who the more I see of them the more I agree with FJH that actually what they want from these processes is mainly, maybe solely, for themselves.

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  4. Comment on “That’s the only way I can put,” he said “they sleep with the victims.”
    on 14 April 2014 at 2:58 pm

    Higgins seems about right on this whilst both Rowan and Dunlop are wrong, at best muisguided and quite possibly dishonest.

    We cannot expect victims to forget the past. They need to be listened to and their views acted on. The overwhelming majority of victims opposed amnesties etc. as has been demonstrated by Eames Bradley’s research (which they conveniently ignored) and afterwards. Most victims want justice.

    Turning to the suggestion “The greatest tribute to those who have suffered, however, is to build on their sacrifices.”

    This is a false premise. Most did not make a sacrifice in that couscious way. The police and army maybe but their view of their sacrifice and what they wanted may be quite different to what we have now. The terrorists may have felt they were making a sacrifice but they certainly had different aims to the security forces. The others murdered: shoppers, children etc. were making absolutely no sacrifice: they were murdered.

    This sort of emotional appeal in the absence of any factual basis is a dishonest fiction which is too often used to claim that we must make changes in specific political directions.

    If we were to make changes specifically to honour the dead we would need to ask their relatives about their views and that brings us back to the initial position. Most relatives want justice.

    Turning finally (finally because they are the least important) to the terrorists. They may be haunted by the murderers they committed: Good, Good, Good. So they should be. Nonsense from terrorist thugs about them “sleeping with the victims” does not even deserve to be repeated unless it is to scoff at their self regarding, self pitying nonsense. They committed those foul crimes. They must live with the consequences.

    Personally I have never believed in either the death penalty nor that life should mean life. However, a murderer should have a vastly less pleasant life than s/he would have had otherwise. Part of that should indeed be being haunted by the crime they committed.

    Helping those emotionally distressed by the results of their own wickedness should be done but should be personal not societial. It is about leading these people to acceptance of their crimes and repentance be that secular or religious.

    We should not in any way whatsoever absolve the murderers in private or public and private support should be personal not pretending they are in some way analogous to innocent victims. They (the murderers) are the sole authors of their own victimhood. Indeed such public nonsense may hurt these terrorists. The ones who have recovered best seem to be those who have recognised the utter wickedness of their crimes, accepted their own personal responsibility and kept away from public “post troubles porn” reconcillation.

    “Billy Giles spent long years in jail and, six months after that interview, he took his own life – no longer able to sleep with the victims, no longer able to sleep with what happened”

    It is sad that Giles took his own life but the critical point is not “no longer able to sleep with what happened” but no longer able to sleep with what he did. Help him certainly but the best help is to help him understand the wickedness he committed and help him repent (secularly or religiously).

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  5. Comment on And meanwhile in Larne, the UDA enforces its imaginary paramilitary writ…
    on 31 March 2014 at 9:34 pm

    Comrade Stalin,
    Yes indeed comments like: “Larne must not drift back to the days of the past.” and “…the community must cooperate with the police” are so ambiguous. I know there is an election coming which your party for some unknown reason seem rather worried about but try not to tell completely bare faced lies.

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  6. Comment on And meanwhile in Larne, the UDA enforces its imaginary paramilitary writ…
    on 31 March 2014 at 9:23 pm

    Of course the tacit support or bling eye turning of the DUP over this is dreadful. Good that you pointed it out.

    Must have been some other non DUP Sammy Wilson MP who somehow managed to get onto the DUP website and post this.

    I believe that this was in retaliation for police arrests over the last week and also settling scores in an attempt to stamp paramilitary authority on parts of the town. This cannot be allowed to happen. Larne must not drift back to the days of the past.
    I know that there is no desire for this to happen apart from those who wish to be able to continue their criminality without challenge.
    The police must ensure that they have the intelligence and the resources to anticipate the activities of these criminals and apprehend them. In turn the community must cooperate with the police to enable them to do their work. The alternative is thug rule which will destroy those areas where it is allowed to prevail.”

    Strangely someone called Roy Beggs an MLA but obviously not from the UUP managed to get onto the UUP website as well and post this:

    The South East Antrim UDA are being blamed. This is a challenge to British law and order. Do those who are orchestrating and carrying out these attacks think they are above the law? This is serious, organised crime endangering life. I would call for significant additional police resources to be dedicated to address those who are challenging British law and the justice system.

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  7. Comment on Boston College tapes unlikely to lead Adams to gaol but suggest any truth process is pointless
    on 29 March 2014 at 8:50 am

    You do not get away that easily here on slugger. If you introduce concepts they get challenged. You challenged mine now I challenge yours.

    The list of civilian deaths by the IRA is completely disingenuous. We have had this sort of thing on slugger before.

    The problem is that ex security forces members are counted as security forces in those analyses which includes people who had retired years before. They were civilians.

    Next most of the security forces members murdered were off duty. For example of the people killed at the Enniskillen bomb it reports one as RUC which is technically correct but he was there in his capacity as a civilian.

    Then we have the fact that IRA victims who were members of the mainland GB police are classed as security forces. Were England, Scotland and Wales not allowed policing?

    Also reported as security forces were the soldiers in Germany who were murdered.

    Once those numbers (there were very large numbers of them especially off duty security forces) are removed the numb of times the IRA killed actively engaged security forces was very low.

    The reality is that those statistics “flatter” the IRA. In actual fact murdering Prods was part and parcel of the whole IRA campaign. Also of course most people here of all sides regarded murdering members of the security forces as completely wrong.

    Then on the idea that the IRA wanted to minimise civilian causalities or else they would have used a big car bomb outside the shop. Utter rubbish. If you look at Claudy less people were killed by each bomb. At Omagh despite a very large bomb the mass casualties were only “achieved” by having the people moved towards the car with the bomb.

    To be fair this is a point often misunderstood when talking about the actual mechanics of IRA terrorism. The point is that IRA bombs were usually relatively small and crude even the Semtex ones. The car bombs were large but the explosives not especially powerful as compared to commercial or military explosives. In most bombs most of the deaths were caused not by the blast but by falling rubble etc. These were not military type explosives. For example at Enniskillen the bomb was carefully placed to knock down the building against which the civilian attendees traditionally stood. The bomb blast did not kill the victims it was the wall which the bomb knocked down. The IRA appear to have been well aware of the limitations of their bombs. As such planting the bomb in the shop was a mechanism for maximising not minimising civilian casualties.

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  8. Comment on Boston College tapes unlikely to lead Adams to gaol but suggest any truth process is pointless
    on 29 March 2014 at 12:16 am

    I did read the comments and whether or not Mallie or McKittrick made them and whether or not they came from “a senior member of the security services” they make no sense. IEDs (home made bombs) are rudimentary devices. Even if it had been a military bomb carefully placed with some magic ability despite being a hand held bomb to direct blast upwards it would have had the same effect. Even had blast being going predominantly upwards since that would have brought the ceiling, roof etc. of the building down it would have had a lethal effect in the shop. The real world is not a Hollywood movie. If explosions happen people die: often in large numbers.

    I am happy to engage in reasonable debate. That does not mean I will necessarily agree with your assertions. That is a difference you fail to grasp. Further I will not accept fantastic comments whether they come from you, Eammon Mallie or Anthony McIntyre. I certainly will not accept that McIntyre says that he thinks it likely that the IRA terrorists would have tried to evacuate the shop. That is simply so unlikely as to have been silly. That he bases his argument upon it moves his argument from silly to dishonest and lying.

    It is indeed unfortunate for people like you that I have become a regular contributor on slugger. It is a misfortune visited upon you and like minded people for a number of years. Sorry about that.

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  9. Comment on Boston College tapes unlikely to lead Adams to gaol but suggest any truth process is pointless
    on 28 March 2014 at 11:23 pm

    I have not failed to prove my original allegation. McIntrye himself proved it when he started telling his lies. I have pointed out his assorted lies. You can only believe he is telling the truth if you think the IRA routinely tried to avoid casualties. The assorted terrorist outrages demonstrate that those are utter lies.

    Seriously listen to yourself. You are willing to agree with an individual who tried to suggest that the IRA terrorists who committed the Shankill fish shop atrocity tried to get the victims out. You then went on to try to suggest that the bomb was some sort of shaped charge designed to explode upwards and then that Anthony McIntyre is an individual of honesty and integrity.

    I am pointing out that McIntyre is a murderer and a liar. It is also abject nonsense to suggest that a home made bomb placed in a room can be made to produce blast going predominantly upwards.

    McIntyre destroyed his credibility with his ill-advised comments about the IRA murderers. As Reader said above it is unclear why he did this but that is what he did.

    If you wish to continue down this line you are free to do so but all you are doing is highlighting McIntyre’s dishonesty and I am afraid your own.

    What is desperate here is your defence of McIntyre.

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  10. Comment on Quote of the Day…
    on 28 March 2014 at 11:04 pm

    wild turkey,
    In the following discussion every time I use a square bracket [ or ] put a pointy bracket > or the other one (I can only do one or it thinks I am using the code for bold etc.)

    To make something bold, italic etc:

    Type [b] before the thing you want to make bold the [/b] after it. To make an Italic use [i] and [/i].

    You can use a combination to make words bold and italic

    To add red text with a link put [a href="the web address you want"] then the red writing you want followed by [/a]

    Here is a blog I did on the subject

    I hope that helps. If you need more email me the email is real.


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