Slugger O'Toole

@Reader

And was it Republicans or “Republicans” who carried out the Kingsmills massacre?

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Actually you hit the nail on the head. You know of course that there are many republicans who are opposed to any form of violence in politics? So the point is if it was republicans who carried out Kingsmill, it was most certainly those who advocate violence.

See republicans and “republicans”.

My point is if you want to be identified apart from people whom you which to differentiate [or distance] yourself from, you call yourself something else. It really is that simple.

Don’t like your name, what do you do? Change it.

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I’m with Morpheus on this one.

I can’t see where we have gone off topic?

I can’t see where we have been man playing?

So difficult to know how we have deviated from the rule base?

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If you push even just a little you see that “unionists” just don’t care what methods the military, the state and its nefarious agencies used.

C/N/R/Irish lives just don’t have the same value to them.

Morpheus is very right when he asks “Where’s the line?”

Well there is no line for “unionists”. There is no bottom, there is no barrel that can’t be scraped, it is possible to get down lower than a snakes belly. It is possible for them to explain away obscenities as necessary. They need to dress it up with phrases like “sucker punch” because if they actually have to use the proper description of vile acts well they might have to face up them and their tiny ego’s just couldn’t take the hit.

For goodness sake how many of the Shankill Butchers were given the PUL community equivalent of a state funeral?

However the point I made stands. The British state broke one of the major tenets of counter-insurgency. They lost the moral argument through a catalogue of state-sponsored morally illegitimate acts, which they refuse to this day to own up to. Such is the ego hit this is causing to the British psyche and their institutions seen and unseen that they are trying desperately to draw a line under the entire troubles.

However foul deeds will rise, Though all the earth o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes.

“the gunman survived and his target didn’t…”

So true. How many of those brave soldiers on Bloody Sunday were shot that day? Or in Ballymurphy when they were using unarmed women, teenagers and men of the cloth as their safari animals of choice? Brave men indeed.

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@Mick

“the British state authorities (democratic or not) appear to have used their agents and informers as a cancerous gene inside both sets of organisations, causing sustainable damage over duration of the long war and destroying its capacity to think and act independently from within”

I would be interested to read some examples of the British secretive state agencies [MI5/MI6/FRU/Special Branch] actually hampering loyalist terrorist organisations? The documentary under discussion provided very clear evidence to the contrary.

This was old-style counter insurgency in operation, which we have seen from Aden to Afghanistan, from Palestine to the Iraq.

The “both sides were as bad as each other” with the British umpiring in the middle like good old Dicky Bird is about as wide of the mark as you can get. It is lazy and its just plain wrong. Britain ran the counter-insurgency in Northern Ireland. However they made a massive error in judgement. The below taken from Chapter 7 of the current Marine Corp Counterinsurgency manual (Dec. 2006), signed by Petraeus himself.

“Lose Moral Legitimacy, Lose the War

During the Algerian war of independence between 1954 and 1962, French leaders decided to permit torture against suspected insurgents. Though they were aware that it was against the law and morality of war, they argued that—
• This was a new form of war and these rules did not apply.
• The threat the enemy represented, communism, was a great evil that justified extraordinary means.
• The application of torture against insurgents was measured and non-gratuitous.
This official condoning of torture on the part of French Army leadership had several negative consequences. It empowered the moral legitimacy of the opposition, undermined the French moral legitimacy, and caused internal fragmentation among serving officers that led to an unsuccessful coup attempt in 1962. In the end, failure to comply with moral and legal restrictions against torture severely undermined French efforts and contributed to their loss despite several significant military victories. Illegal and immoral activities made the counterinsurgents extremely vulnerable to enemy propaganda inside Algeria among the Muslim population, as well as in the United Nations and the French media. These actions also degraded the ethical climate throughout the French Army. France eventually recognized Algerian independence in July 1963.”

That is an absolute jewel in understanding why we are where we are in this region. If the British state acted in an above board manner then where is the problem?

Lose moral legitimacy, lose the war.

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The documentary is shocking.

The two major statements, one of which I had heard at the time are David Camerons off hand admission in no. 10 and Brian Rowans comment. Here are both.

“Look the previous Administration (Labour) could not deliver an enquiry…in your husbands case and neither can we because there are people all around this place who won’t let it happen.” Prime Minster David Cameron

“You put Special Branch in the dock, and they will put the State in the dock…” B. Rowan

Basically Cameron is admitting that the UK is not a parliamentary democracy and that the law of the country is not applied equally in all cases. Camerons further admissions in the Commons underlined the role of the state in the murder of Pat Finucane. To all those who have said, even in recent days on this site, that the judiciary is independent in the UK of political influence look pretty foolish when you look at those admissions by Cameron and others.

1. So the UK is not a democracy.
2. The legal processes are not applied equally.
3. The state has agencies which plan, assist, facilitate and indeed carry out murder of its own citizens to order.
4. Even the Prime Minister of the government admits that he is unable to take these people to task.
5. Demonstrably the judiciary are unable to apply the law equally in all cases, especially those involving agencies and agents of the state.
6. The police are unable to investigate all the criminal acts that occur in the state in cases involving the machinations of the agencies and agents of said state.

When the “unionists” among you wonder why Irish people want to get out of the UK as soon as is practicable then look no further than the list above. The documentary underlines the fact that we really will need to wipe our feet after walking the UK door.

If we compare the situation to the United States, a republic, we can see clear blue water. Richard Nixon had to resign the presidency of that country after been found to have sanctioned bugging, harassment and activities which led to burglary visited upon his political rivals.

Here the state sanctioned murder and the Prime Minister admits that “nothing can be done about it because the people at fault won’t like it”.

Rowan is right. If the state were to go after its own dogs, the dogs will bite back.

The UK is a sick corrupt country from top to bottom, the quicker we are out of it the better.

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@DC

You are not stupid I can’t believe you wrote this.

“But! if you guys are delivering change you too should negotiate all of this with those that it is affecting, lead on it, same applies to alliance as it does with the DUP and UUP.”

Seriously and for the first time on slugger, ffs! APNI have 6 councillors on BCC. That’s six (6). SF have nearly three time their number on BCC.

So how exactly are APNI supposed to be the tail that wags the dog at BCC?

“There’s no point attempting to wash your hands off it like you did with the flag fallout, to me it’s a bit like the Tories introducing the poll tax and saying the great unwashed are rioting why didn’t the Labour party lead on this with us and attempt to tame these beasts!”

Jesus wept they have 6 councillors out of 51. They did the MOST to deliver what they could AND then some for your community? All the while TRYING to appear as middle of the road.

And what do they get as thanks?

Their offices burnt out. Death threats.; Lundys ALL.

There is no hope in this. This is no future in this DC. You must re-evaluate. I insist. You are not stupid. Perhaps by doing so you may LEAD some to a better place.

I insist you re-evaluate your position. It holds no water. It leads to a desert upon which there is no water and you will all surely die. Re-evaluate I insist. We need you here, alive.

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@FDM

“Your rant might sound good”

Of course it did, I wrote it.

“I think there is a realisation out there that working class unionist areas need to come out and vote so that that pushes up their representation to a level which can co-exist with the likes of Alliance and negotiate on shared future based on a strong turn out at the polls, than have it imposed on them from a position of weakness.”

DC you have been sold a pup. You saw the census results. You just don’t have the numbers anymore. The “mass” fleg protests were handfuls of eejits, political wannabees and lets be honest tazer packing nutjobs. So how are you going to pull this political mandate rabbit out of the hat? Can’t the CNR community just turn up the volume as well, with their increased numbers? Aren’t SF the best at getting their electorate out in the entire region? Tell me I am wrong? Unless you crank up the unionist version of Treblinka the jig is up my friend.

“There is probably a bit of resentment that the UUP has collapsed and with the DUP corrupted in E Belfast this has all too easily paved the way for Alliance on this, too easily in terms of not consulting and listening directly to the people that their policy is going to affect – such as loyalists.”

The DUP are trying desperately to keep the UUP alive. I think 4/5 of the UUP MLAs got through on the last count at the previous election? Swingometer time! Hence the DUP are trying to life-support them to keep SF/SDLP at bay. The only party I actually see helping your community is APNI. They are trying to deal with REALITY. But if you want to kill the messenger then that’s up to you. The rest are lying to you, whilst APNI are trying to get you the best deal they can with the numbers they have. APNI won you a stay of execution for your flag. And heres one for you. The only way in the longer term you can ensure that a Union flag continues to have some place over city hall is to ensure that a tricolour stands beside it as soon as possible. Think that one through.

“shared future it is largely about regulating and reducing unionist and loyalist symbols”

SHARED future. One more time SHARED future. One day in the very near future both flags will be on top of city hall BECAUSE more balanced minds will prevail.

“that will disproportionately affect loyalist areas”

So loyalists disproportionately love their culture more than Irish nationalists? Where is the flag representing the majority population in Belfast on top of city hall?

“which alliance doesn’t have any meaningful roots in”

I think those are very hollow words and in 2015 they will come back to haunt the DUP/UUP and the fleggers. There are a lot of people in East Belfast who loathe UVF driven creeps destroying the peace and misrepresenting the wider community.

“So, you can kind of see why it might be best to at least try and talk and listen to those that your policy is going to affect”

That’s the point! They have and they did. APNI won a concession from SF and the SDLP in the BCC process. The problem is the “this is our country” dictators just don’t get that the scales have tipped and its not 1923 anymore.

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@DC and the fleggers

What a load of crap DC. Here are the Ulster Peoples Forums DEMANDS, their words.

“1. A return to direct rule because of the failing of our political representatives”

So democracy is not acceptable to East Belfast because there are too many mandated nationalist politicians in government and we can’t get our own way anymore. Bawahahahaha. Democracy is a bitch, a’int it?

“2. The Union Flag to be flown from every Council building across Northern Ireland”

Not content with marking every loyalist street corner, every lamp-post and telephone pole, like well watered dogs, the entire of Northern Ireland must be IN YOUR FACE BRITISH so that the Irish types know where they are and who rules the roost. Why not paint the kerb stones red, white and blue all the up to the entrance of a catholic girls school to intimidate the 4-11 year olds? Sorry [tick] that one is done already.

“3. Police Service of Northern Ireland to refrain from the physical abuse of peaceful protestors and to stop the present political policing”

Rather than accept the partisan and incredibly lenient approach of the PSNI to dealing with the fleggers lets stretch reality to see if we can actually make them withdraw all the way back into the Police stations. Any level of violence is acceptable to make the PSNI yield, even attempted murder.

“4. An immediate end to appeasing the anti British nationalist socialist agenda by the persistent undermining of Protestant Unionist Loyalist culture, heritage and traditions”

Would you please tell all those croppies with the vote to lie down. This is our wee country not theirs. We don’t care if they will have a majority or that they have a democratic vote. WE OWN THIS PLACE and only allow them to be guests. If they don’t like it they can move to the Republic.

“it was clearly demonstrated that many Protestants feel that nationalist socialist Sinn Fein has acted outside the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.”

We want nationalists to stop being nationalists because that offends our unionist sensibilities. Democracy is only acceptable when unionists hold the majority.

Yet DC has the audacity to say that “Alliance … can be as dogmatic in terms of seeing through their ‘shared future’ vision”.

DOGMA? You read those DEMANDS above and you laughingly talk about DOGMA? At least APNI are committed to democracy! If you and the East Belfast Fleg Association, or whatever you call yourselves this week, can’t start from that premise then I can tell you that there is simply NO HOPE for you.

Democracy is THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

The quicker you get that, then the quicker the people who work and the tourists can get up and down the streets of East Belfast, without having to run a gauntlet of burning cars, fleg-drapped spongers, loud-mouthed UVF “cultural attaches” and “historical flegs” justifying a terrorist organisation attached to every available space.

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@Comrade Stalin

“Gerry never learns. Legal action would inevitably result in a court hearing where all of Miriam’s questions would be now put to him in front of a judge, by the defence barrister, and with the risk of perjury lurking in the background. Everyone knows he won’t and can’t take legal action over accusations he was in the IRA.”

True. Also legal action is risky on many grounds. Courts don’t provide justice. Courts provide the law. The two are not the same thing at all. In this particular accusation Miriam and co. may in fact be completely wrong. Whilst their wider point may have substance [which has never been verified to any civil or criminal watermark of proof] this particular case may be completely unfounded. The courts are also subject to political influence whether people like to accept that or not, so the decision might not go your way due to external pressures. Court proceedings such as these are potentially very expensive and RTE can draw on significant funds to back them. Hence the best of legal representation to boot.

My points introduce the wider concept of journalistic integrity. RTE through Miriam are spreading accusations which they cannot actually evidence to meet any legally important threshold. Even if Gerry could refute this latest accusation it would be a Pyhrric victory since the other accusations would remain. Additionally taking a celebrity journalist to court might generate ill-feeling amongst the electorate on the general premise of protecting the freedom of the press.

I think making allegations because you can “get away” with saying them doesn’t really say too much about the level of journalistic integrity at RTE. They are cheap shots against one of the individuals in this society who RTE like to pillory. It boils down to trial by journalism.

If RTE have evidence against Mr. Adams then let them provide it to the prosecution services and let justice be done on him. Otherwise who do they serve by making allegations that they demonstrably can’t substantiate?

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@Barnshee

Thanks I know my clubs history.

Just the facts Barnshee, just the facts. If you had any that supported your skewed view of reality well you would produce them.

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