I read the Independent piece with great interest yesterday morning. As a working class kids that passed my “quali” and went on to a grammar, my own personal experience was that it completely transformed my life.
And the reason? Not the quality of teaching, which was patchy. Not the school facilities, which were in serious need of reinvestment. No, the main reason was that I actually found myself mixing with a) kids that lived outside my own immediate geographical area and thus had different perspectives; and b) rich kids. Both of these things contributed towards widening my outlook and raising my aspirations.
If we could come up with a non-grammar system which could instill aspiration into kids who come from working class environments where aspiration isn’t generally encouraged, I’d be all for it.
In its absence, I’d prefer that at least a proportion of poor kids get a crack at making something of themselves. So on balance I guess I still would support grammars.
I’ve read this post and associated comments. I’ve also read most of the links, and the comments on those threads. So I can now say with confidence that there is one assertion in Harris’ article which is demonstrably incorrect. It’s the latter part of this quote:
“But I became convinced that both sides desperately craved the truth: the Protestants to tell it, the Roman Catholics to hear it.”
1. Would agree with those that have expressed confusion about the exact wording of the question, particularly when compared to the nationalist post.
2. However, my views remain unchanged – a UI would by definition mean that I would no longer be British any more – which I would not be happy about.
3. Nor would a UI enhance my Irishness – I would be viewed as 2nd/3rd class Irish by most of the rest of the Island.
4. None of which is to say that I actively dislike the ROI as a nation, or the people that live there: quite the opposite. I’ve had some great times in the south and have friends from the south.
And finally, a quick comment on the Nationalist post. It’s a shame that it got a bit mope’ish. But what it did demonstrate to me is the inability of some nationalists to actually recognise that the unionist world-view is as legitimate as theirs. I would hope that perhaps some nationalists might consider if there are ways to square the circle in terms of their desire for a UI and the fairly consistent messages that came from unionists on this post.
I’ve certainly learned things from these posts, so thanks to Mick for putting them up.
I saw this post yesterday morning, and my initial thoughts were that a UI would offer nothing. However, I thought I would wait to see what other unionists came up with in case I was missing something. From reading the responses, my initial view has been confirmed.
The bottom line is that although I would be labeled as a “unionist” in the context of Slugger, I view myself as British, not unionist. Being part of a UI would make me no longer British. So that’s a resounding NO from me on that score.
In terms of the Irish part of my identity, I don’t see any way that being politically linked to UI would enhance that in any way. Let’s face it, many southerners already view northern nationalists as a form of 2nd class Irishmen; so how would they view a northern unionist/ex-Brit?
JoeBryce – “I can only speak for myself, and I have not lived in NI for a long time, but to me the effect of the secularisation of politics is that a united – or at least, a new – Ireland, no longer holds any terrors for me”
Indeed, and I wonder how many people born into the nationalist tradition will feel less antipathy towards staying in the UK as a result of events from the last few years. I’m not saying that they would positively choose to stay in the UK…but actually would be pretty relaxed either way.
Brian Walker’s comment – “What happens when change lacks clear definition and eludes familiar ideology?” – hits the nail on the head. There will be no easily recognised seismic shifts, either in NI policy (from either British or Irish governments) nor in social attitudes. Just a steady drift to somewhere.
I’m thinking that the steady drift will be away from the fundamentalists on both sides. Lets face it, both sides of the community already spend more time worshipping at the church of TK Maxx than at any religious church.
Fair play to Iain, he managed to get over 2,200 people voting in his poll for the top Northern Irish blogs this year… We (just, I imagine) retained our top spot, with Splintered coming straight in at number 2, no doubt his pet subject du jour will have garnered him a lot of fans… I’ve [...] read our review »
This morning’s Sunday Sequence featured a substantial debate (about 35 minutes into the recorded programme) on a new book,Religion, Civil Society and Peace in Northern Ireland (Oxford University Press 2011), written by sociologists John Brewer, Gareth Higgins and Francis Teeney. The debate was framed in an opening vignette by presenter William Crawley in uncompromising terms, [...] read our review »
Just your average family gathering at Christmas, with a bit of an argument about the seating cleaning arrangements… Scuffles have broken out between rival groups of Greek Orthodox and Armenian clerics over a turf war in Bethlehem’s Church of the Nativity. Bemused tourists looked on as about 100 priests fought with brooms while cleaning the [...] read our review »
Comment on Grammar schools and social mobility: a Northern Ireland contribution to the debate
on 22 May 2012 at 8:48 am
I read the Independent piece with great interest yesterday morning. As a working class kids that passed my “quali” and went on to a grammar, my own personal experience was that it completely transformed my life.
And the reason? Not the quality of teaching, which was patchy. Not the school facilities, which were in serious need of reinvestment. No, the main reason was that I actually found myself mixing with a) kids that lived outside my own immediate geographical area and thus had different perspectives; and b) rich kids. Both of these things contributed towards widening my outlook and raising my aspirations.
If we could come up with a non-grammar system which could instill aspiration into kids who come from working class environments where aspiration isn’t generally encouraged, I’d be all for it.
In its absence, I’d prefer that at least a proportion of poor kids get a crack at making something of themselves. So on balance I guess I still would support grammars.
Go to comment
Comment on “Given these circumstances we believe the soldiers used reasonable force.”
on 4 May 2012 at 1:36 pm
“Karen Quinlivan was the barrister acting for the families of Grew and McCaughey.
A verdict has been reached.
If you do not agree with it then I suggest you explain why.”
Good luck with that one Niccolo. I’ve been asking the same question since yesterday afternoon.
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Comment on “Given these circumstances we believe the soldiers used reasonable force.”
on 4 May 2012 at 12:20 pm
tapacall
“DoppiaVu. Do juries not get it wrong sometimes ?”
Indeed they do. But they’re still the best system anyone’s come up with.
And I’ve yet to hear you set out why the jury is wrong in this instance.
Oh yes and same question to you Dec. After all, apparently you have read all 8 weeks of evidence.
So, let’s hear it then…
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Comment on “Given these circumstances we believe the soldiers used reasonable force.”
on 4 May 2012 at 9:04 am
Dec – “I read the same evidence that the jury heard. Like them, I’ll draw my own conclusions.”
Are you now telling me that you actually managed to read all 8 weeks of evidence? Again, I don’t think so.
But hey, who needs 8 weeks of evidence and a considered decision by a jury?
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Comment on “Given these circumstances we believe the soldiers used reasonable force.”
on 3 May 2012 at 4:07 pm
Dec
Do you have evidence which the jury (which sat through 8 weeks of evidence) did not have access to? Want to share it with us?
No? Didn’t think so.
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Comment on Farewell to Education for Reconciliation
on 1 May 2012 at 9:00 am
This all smacks of indoctrination to me.
Go to comment
Comment on “A mix in society between Catholic and Protestant was lost at that time…”
on 24 April 2012 at 8:44 am
I’ve read this post and associated comments. I’ve also read most of the links, and the comments on those threads. So I can now say with confidence that there is one assertion in Harris’ article which is demonstrably incorrect. It’s the latter part of this quote:
“But I became convinced that both sides desperately craved the truth: the Protestants to tell it, the Roman Catholics to hear it.”
Go to comment
Comment on For Unionists Only: What would you relish in a United Ireland?
on 20 April 2012 at 9:27 am
Overall thoughts on this post:
1. Would agree with those that have expressed confusion about the exact wording of the question, particularly when compared to the nationalist post.
2. However, my views remain unchanged – a UI would by definition mean that I would no longer be British any more – which I would not be happy about.
3. Nor would a UI enhance my Irishness – I would be viewed as 2nd/3rd class Irish by most of the rest of the Island.
4. None of which is to say that I actively dislike the ROI as a nation, or the people that live there: quite the opposite. I’ve had some great times in the south and have friends from the south.
And finally, a quick comment on the Nationalist post. It’s a shame that it got a bit mope’ish. But what it did demonstrate to me is the inability of some nationalists to actually recognise that the unionist world-view is as legitimate as theirs. I would hope that perhaps some nationalists might consider if there are ways to square the circle in terms of their desire for a UI and the fairly consistent messages that came from unionists on this post.
I’ve certainly learned things from these posts, so thanks to Mick for putting them up.
Go to comment
Comment on For Unionists Only: What would you relish in a United Ireland?
on 19 April 2012 at 8:59 am
I saw this post yesterday morning, and my initial thoughts were that a UI would offer nothing. However, I thought I would wait to see what other unionists came up with in case I was missing something. From reading the responses, my initial view has been confirmed.
The bottom line is that although I would be labeled as a “unionist” in the context of Slugger, I view myself as British, not unionist. Being part of a UI would make me no longer British. So that’s a resounding NO from me on that score.
In terms of the Irish part of my identity, I don’t see any way that being politically linked to UI would enhance that in any way. Let’s face it, many southerners already view northern nationalists as a form of 2nd class Irishmen; so how would they view a northern unionist/ex-Brit?
Go to comment
Comment on How will the long slow secularisation of Ireland affect NI’s future politics?
on 17 April 2012 at 9:13 am
JoeBryce – “I can only speak for myself, and I have not lived in NI for a long time, but to me the effect of the secularisation of politics is that a united – or at least, a new – Ireland, no longer holds any terrors for me”
Indeed, and I wonder how many people born into the nationalist tradition will feel less antipathy towards staying in the UK as a result of events from the last few years. I’m not saying that they would positively choose to stay in the UK…but actually would be pretty relaxed either way.
Brian Walker’s comment – “What happens when change lacks clear definition and eludes familiar ideology?” – hits the nail on the head. There will be no easily recognised seismic shifts, either in NI policy (from either British or Irish governments) nor in social attitudes. Just a steady drift to somewhere.
I’m thinking that the steady drift will be away from the fundamentalists on both sides. Lets face it, both sides of the community already spend more time worshipping at the church of TK Maxx than at any religious church.
Go to comment