They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, I remember once taking my kids who grew up in England on the city sightseeing tour after a long period of them whinging that they wanted to go on the bus tour and me telling them that they would be bored.
I finally caved in and before the bus had even pulled out from castle junction one was asleep and the other was moaning that she was bored, I really enjoyed it in the end and actually learned a few things that I didn’t know.
The history of the troubles is gruesome at points and, yes, it is mostly a story of human tragedy, but surely that is all the more reason for people to be told what happened rather than to hide it away in case someone thinks it unseemly to make a profit from it.
I’m not sure that I was ever enough of a Catholic to even consider myself lapsed, I have long despised the Catholic church (and the various protestant ones too), but that has not made me feel any less Irish or any less nationalist.
For me nationalism is more about wanting to maintain an Irish cultural identity than about religion, unfortunately politicians for years have used both religious devotion and religious bigotry as a way to manipulate people, what secularism will hopefully achieve is a politics based on policies not on playing on peoples’ religious beliefs, when you look at politics in the south things have metamorphosised (sp?) from political parties trying to be seen as appealing to a strongly religious population to what has almost become a competition to who can distance themselves most from the church.
The other important aspect of the secularisation of Southern politics is that it should help reduce the fears of protestants in the north that they would be discriminated against in a united Ireland, there will (arguably) come a point where the democratic will of the people in the north is for a united Ireland and at that point if unionists cannot be persuaded to accept the situation things will be very unpleasant, if unionists see a united Ireland as inevitable then both the secularisation of Ireland and the cultural shift together of the north and south which has happened over the last couple of decades will hopefully make the idea more palatable for unionists and the transition that little bit smoother.
I love the socialist side of the UK, I love the liberalism that exists, I love the multi-culturalism, I love the NHS and the welfare state, I love institutions like the BBC, I love the fact that there are some fantastic arts and cultural events etc. which are freely available and if not free then at least heavily subsidised, I love the museums and the science exhibitions.
It is just such a shame that each of these has a dark side, as much as there is liberalism there has also been a huge reduction in civil liberty recently, as much as there is multi-culturism there is also a rabid racism, as much as there is a welfare state there is a culture of seeing anyone living on benefits as scroungers, as much as there are the great cultural events there is also a culture of elitism about the arts.
I think I would echo much of what Obelisk said, I hate the fact that Ireland is divided, I love the idea of a United Ireland, completely independent of the UK, but I would not want that Ireland to be too different from the UK, and to be honest Ireland has changed so much in the last 20 years that I don’t think a united Ireland when it comes will mean great changes in day to day life for the people of the north, either nationalist or unionist.
I have made a similar point several times previously on Slugger.
I think Fr O’Niell is playing politics here, in some desperate attempt to sway the Irish state into cuddling up again with the church in order to ensure that the catholic population in the north stay loyal to the south.
That does not, however, mean that he is wrong.
When you look back through Irish history (and god knows theres enough of it), the grievances which led to partition were all basically economic, rather than religious. Many of the catholic societies which sprang up made a huge point of swearing their allegiance to the crown. There arguments were almost constantly for better conditions of living.
Irish Nationalism in the North prospered because young catholics were easily persuaded that they would have a better life and face less descrimination in a republic of Ireland, that is not so obviously the case anymore. While many catholics may indeed be questioning their nationalism, it will not be because they are desparate to be more catholic, but because they wish to be more prosperous and in light of recent financial events many may see the Union with Britain as the best way to ensure that happens.
I have said a few times before that if there were to be a referendum in the North on a united Ireland every year the result would be almost exactly along the same lines as the religious make up of the population, right up to the point where there was any realistic chance of a United Ireland when a significant proportion of Catholics would take a long hard look and decide that they were not so sure after all.
If the demographic continues to change as it has been with the catholic population increasing (and this is by no means certain as young Catholics do not seem to be as keen to have the traditionally large families that older generations had) then Unionists need to realise that it will be these catholic votes that they need to maintain the union.
I could even see a possibility that unionism would have to swing so far away from it’s traditional sectarian roots that more Catholics could be persuaded that the union is in their best interests.
If these allegations should be proven, then I struggle to believe that he has developed a mental illness, joined a paramilitary organisation and committed these attacks all within the space of the 5 months since he was a good upstanding DUP candidate in May’s elections.
While (for no other reason than that it would make no sense politically) I can’t believe that the DUP would knowingly put forward a candidate like this, surely there must have been some inkling in May that everything was not right?
Politics and violence have been so closely linked in the north of Ireland for so many years that the parties need to bear in mind the possibility that those who are prepared to become active in politics are also active in violence and if a party is going to take a stand against terrorism then it needs to make it known that those involved in violence (and not just those who get caught) are not welcome.
Nunoftheabove, couldn’t agree more. As horrendous as the whole debacle was, and still is for those who were involved, I don’t think there is another single event, which history will view as bringing Ireland kicking and screaming into becoming a modern democracy for all of the reasons which you have mentioned above.
The Irish people’s view of both church and politicians seems to have changed from seeing them as leaders to seeing them as public servants, and so it should be.
Where aid does work is in relieving suffering during temporary events like floods, droughts, famines, etc. Where the system has gone so horribly wrong is that we are piling billions upon billions of aid into third world countries on a regular basis.
You only have to look at the vast sums of money which have been ploughed into Africa by governments and charities over the last 30-40 years, if that sort of aid worked then the problems would be solved by now, instead we are artificially allowing population growth to a level where the land is unable to support the number of people there and causing further reliance on aid.
As for the title, no country unfree shall ever be at peace, but there is a difference between freedom and getting to choose which flag flies above Stormont.
Brian “It is unfortunate that the Provos forever hijacked the mantle of the “IRA” in many people’s minds and that their tactics somewhat blackened it’s name to much of the wider world. However, we should not let them stop us from celebrating or at least commemorating the IRA of revolutionary times.”, it is indeed unfortunate, but it that is what has happened and yes, as I said above, the history of the IRA of the early 20th century is important to Ireland (as is the history of the provos), but the idea of celebrating, or even commemorating that history which we know that one half of the community in the North finds uncomfortable is something which I don’t think is necessary or productive in a society which claims to be moving forward.
As for comparing one little museum in Cashel with the Orange order marches, I wasn’t, I was comparing the way that Nationalists, and in this case, more importantly, the Irish state, remember the history of the IRA with the way that unionists remember the history of the battle of the Boyne, the siege of Derry etc.
Both sides need to realise that while they have the right to remember their history, if things are to move forward then maybe we all need to look at whether exercising those rights is in the best interests of a peaceful future.
As part of NICVA’s series of masterclasses from its Centre for Economic Empowerment project, there was a morning seminar on the topic of the “creative class” (as popularised by Richard Florida) and its applicability to Northern Ireland. The agenda was to: Explain Richard Florida’s idea of the “creative class” and the link between economic outcomes [...] read our review »
If you want to get a flavour of the proceedings at the Political Studies Association conference on its opening day, then the Storify collation below will bring you some of the images, tweets and sounds of the day. Particular highlights included: the Opening Plenary with David Blunkett, Peter Riddell and Matthew Flinders; and the late [...] read our review »
This was a book that I first reviewed at the same time as “Unionism Decayed” back in 2008. Like Vance’s work, it is the author’s portrayal of a defeated political movement or ideal and as a Unionist it was instructional to read an interpretation of the immediate post-Agreement period from the other side of the fence. [...] read our review »
Comment on Belfast Black Taxi Tour – political insight or Troubles tourism?
on 21 May 2012 at 7:25 pm
“political insight or troubles tourism?”
They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, I remember once taking my kids who grew up in England on the city sightseeing tour after a long period of them whinging that they wanted to go on the bus tour and me telling them that they would be bored.
I finally caved in and before the bus had even pulled out from castle junction one was asleep and the other was moaning that she was bored, I really enjoyed it in the end and actually learned a few things that I didn’t know.
The history of the troubles is gruesome at points and, yes, it is mostly a story of human tragedy, but surely that is all the more reason for people to be told what happened rather than to hide it away in case someone thinks it unseemly to make a profit from it.
Go to comment
Comment on How will the long slow secularisation of Ireland affect NI’s future politics?
on 17 April 2012 at 2:23 pm
I’m not sure that I was ever enough of a Catholic to even consider myself lapsed, I have long despised the Catholic church (and the various protestant ones too), but that has not made me feel any less Irish or any less nationalist.
For me nationalism is more about wanting to maintain an Irish cultural identity than about religion, unfortunately politicians for years have used both religious devotion and religious bigotry as a way to manipulate people, what secularism will hopefully achieve is a politics based on policies not on playing on peoples’ religious beliefs, when you look at politics in the south things have metamorphosised (sp?) from political parties trying to be seen as appealing to a strongly religious population to what has almost become a competition to who can distance themselves most from the church.
The other important aspect of the secularisation of Southern politics is that it should help reduce the fears of protestants in the north that they would be discriminated against in a united Ireland, there will (arguably) come a point where the democratic will of the people in the north is for a united Ireland and at that point if unionists cannot be persuaded to accept the situation things will be very unpleasant, if unionists see a united Ireland as inevitable then both the secularisation of Ireland and the cultural shift together of the north and south which has happened over the last couple of decades will hopefully make the idea more palatable for unionists and the transition that little bit smoother.
Go to comment
Comment on For Nationalists Only: What’s great about living in the United Kingdom?
on 17 April 2012 at 2:05 pm
I love the socialist side of the UK, I love the liberalism that exists, I love the multi-culturalism, I love the NHS and the welfare state, I love institutions like the BBC, I love the fact that there are some fantastic arts and cultural events etc. which are freely available and if not free then at least heavily subsidised, I love the museums and the science exhibitions.
It is just such a shame that each of these has a dark side, as much as there is liberalism there has also been a huge reduction in civil liberty recently, as much as there is multi-culturism there is also a rabid racism, as much as there is a welfare state there is a culture of seeing anyone living on benefits as scroungers, as much as there are the great cultural events there is also a culture of elitism about the arts.
I think I would echo much of what Obelisk said, I hate the fact that Ireland is divided, I love the idea of a United Ireland, completely independent of the UK, but I would not want that Ireland to be too different from the UK, and to be honest Ireland has changed so much in the last 20 years that I don’t think a united Ireland when it comes will mean great changes in day to day life for the people of the north, either nationalist or unionist.
Go to comment
Comment on Many Catholics are questioning whether they necessarily have to be nationalist…
on 22 February 2012 at 5:55 pm
I have made a similar point several times previously on Slugger.
I think Fr O’Niell is playing politics here, in some desperate attempt to sway the Irish state into cuddling up again with the church in order to ensure that the catholic population in the north stay loyal to the south.
That does not, however, mean that he is wrong.
When you look back through Irish history (and god knows theres enough of it), the grievances which led to partition were all basically economic, rather than religious. Many of the catholic societies which sprang up made a huge point of swearing their allegiance to the crown. There arguments were almost constantly for better conditions of living.
Irish Nationalism in the North prospered because young catholics were easily persuaded that they would have a better life and face less descrimination in a republic of Ireland, that is not so obviously the case anymore. While many catholics may indeed be questioning their nationalism, it will not be because they are desparate to be more catholic, but because they wish to be more prosperous and in light of recent financial events many may see the Union with Britain as the best way to ensure that happens.
Go to comment
Comment on Peter Robinson: “If we want a better society it can’t be ‘them and us’.”
on 27 November 2011 at 7:00 pm
I have said a few times before that if there were to be a referendum in the North on a united Ireland every year the result would be almost exactly along the same lines as the religious make up of the population, right up to the point where there was any realistic chance of a United Ireland when a significant proportion of Catholics would take a long hard look and decide that they were not so sure after all.
If the demographic continues to change as it has been with the catholic population increasing (and this is by no means certain as young Catholics do not seem to be as keen to have the traditionally large families that older generations had) then Unionists need to realise that it will be these catholic votes that they need to maintain the union.
I could even see a possibility that unionism would have to swing so far away from it’s traditional sectarian roots that more Catholics could be persuaded that the union is in their best interests.
Go to comment
Comment on DUP election candidate charged with racist bomb attack in Antrim
on 16 October 2011 at 10:23 pm
If these allegations should be proven, then I struggle to believe that he has developed a mental illness, joined a paramilitary organisation and committed these attacks all within the space of the 5 months since he was a good upstanding DUP candidate in May’s elections.
While (for no other reason than that it would make no sense politically) I can’t believe that the DUP would knowingly put forward a candidate like this, surely there must have been some inkling in May that everything was not right?
Politics and violence have been so closely linked in the north of Ireland for so many years that the parties need to bear in mind the possibility that those who are prepared to become active in politics are also active in violence and if a party is going to take a stand against terrorism then it needs to make it known that those involved in violence (and not just those who get caught) are not welcome.
Go to comment
Comment on Clerical abuse also relied upon the scarcity of “righteous gentiles”
on 1 September 2011 at 12:59 pm
Nunoftheabove, couldn’t agree more. As horrendous as the whole debacle was, and still is for those who were involved, I don’t think there is another single event, which history will view as bringing Ireland kicking and screaming into becoming a modern democracy for all of the reasons which you have mentioned above.
The Irish people’s view of both church and politicians seems to have changed from seeing them as leaders to seeing them as public servants, and so it should be.
Go to comment
Comment on The Failings of Global Aid- is it Time to Make Charity History?
on 1 September 2011 at 12:51 pm
Where aid does work is in relieving suffering during temporary events like floods, droughts, famines, etc. Where the system has gone so horribly wrong is that we are piling billions upon billions of aid into third world countries on a regular basis.
You only have to look at the vast sums of money which have been ploughed into Africa by governments and charities over the last 30-40 years, if that sort of aid worked then the problems would be solved by now, instead we are artificially allowing population growth to a level where the land is unable to support the number of people there and causing further reliance on aid.
Go to comment
Comment on Ireland unfree…….. shall never be at peace…
on 30 August 2011 at 8:24 am
As for the title, no country unfree shall ever be at peace, but there is a difference between freedom and getting to choose which flag flies above Stormont.
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Comment on Ireland unfree…….. shall never be at peace…
on 30 August 2011 at 8:22 am
Brian “It is unfortunate that the Provos forever hijacked the mantle of the “IRA” in many people’s minds and that their tactics somewhat blackened it’s name to much of the wider world. However, we should not let them stop us from celebrating or at least commemorating the IRA of revolutionary times.”, it is indeed unfortunate, but it that is what has happened and yes, as I said above, the history of the IRA of the early 20th century is important to Ireland (as is the history of the provos), but the idea of celebrating, or even commemorating that history which we know that one half of the community in the North finds uncomfortable is something which I don’t think is necessary or productive in a society which claims to be moving forward.
As for comparing one little museum in Cashel with the Orange order marches, I wasn’t, I was comparing the way that Nationalists, and in this case, more importantly, the Irish state, remember the history of the IRA with the way that unionists remember the history of the battle of the Boyne, the siege of Derry etc.
Both sides need to realise that while they have the right to remember their history, if things are to move forward then maybe we all need to look at whether exercising those rights is in the best interests of a peaceful future.
Go to comment