Sunday, October 07, 2007
Windsor Going South?
The continuing debacle over the siting of a new multi-sports stadium is likely to re-enter the political arena with the news that an IFA/ Linfield-commissioned report is due to recommend the closure of the South Stand at Windsor Park from January 2008, reducing the capacity of the stadium to 9,000. IFA Chief Executive, Howard Wells, admits he has “no idea where the money is coming from” to meet the cost of upgrading Windsor to the basic standard required to host international football- now there’s true leadership for ya, IFA-style!
With opinion strongly divided within the DUP over the location of such a stadium and republicans on record as opposing any alternative siting to that on offer at Long Kesh/ Maze site, it doesn’t appear that the IFA’s ‘wish’ for a massive financial bail-out is likely- in which case, this website and phone number may come in handy…
Chris Donnelly @ 09:29 PM
Ulster Fan
There was a talk about this before on Slugger, I’m not sure about Exchequer funding, but as far as I understood it, in the ten years up to 2005, the three main sports received the following Lottery funding:
http://www.lottery2009.culture.gov.uk/documents/Sports Northern Ireland.doc
Football-7 million.
Gaelic Sports-13 million.
Rugby Union-1.7(!) millionI stress that this is not Exchequer funding but from the Lottery Fund, anyway, hope it helps.
Also anyone read today Poot’s 10 year Strategic Sports Plan- (again!) I understand it correctly, including a “Multi-Sport Stadium"- 260 Million shortfall!!!
Posted by on Oct 09, 2007 @ 05:44 PMBilly Pilgrim
Actually, I understand the arguments very well, which is why I have always been in favour of a city centre stadium.
Then why pretend that the opposition to the Maze location is based on people not being willing to travel eight miles?(You yourself described Lisburn as “the middle of nowhere” – classic city-boy arrogance!)
I didn’t. I described the Maze as the middle of nowhere. (The proposed stadium location is the Maze, not Lisburn.) And by that I mean it is an isolated, rural location with no amenities or infrastructure. I’m sure you understand, really.A 40k stadium would represent a compelling reason for the IRFU to play at least a couple of meaningful internationals there per year. (Say one Six Nations game and a major Autumn international.)
Clearly not, since the IRFU is only committing to one autumn international every other year! But the point remains that, ordinarily, 40,000 will be too big for Ulster rugby or NI football, occasional big fixtures notwithstanding.
Furthermore, why shouldn’t soccer be looking to attract much larger attendances than at present?
Can’t think of any reasons why not. Did someone say it shouldn’t?
They used to get 60,000 at Windsor. The Troubles are over and we hear regularly about how sectarianism has been given the boot. Why is soccer so unambitious? Why should rugby and GAA be held up by soccer’s lack of ambition?
Hell, why not build a 200,000 stadium – why stop at 40 or 60? We wouldn’t want to be seen as unambitious, now.Now you’re just being a tosser. You know very well that it’s standard practice in stadia around the world for upper tiers to be closed off at lesser-attended games, with little or no loss of atmosphere. You pretend like I’m suggesting shutting half the ground, though you know very well that’s not what I’m talking about. Why do dishonest Willow? Why so needlessly difficult?
Zzzzzzzzzzz, we’re back to abuse again. (While we’re on the subject of abuse, any chance that you’re going to have the integrity to defend or retract your prejudiced accusations about those suggesting a NI rugby team?) It’s not the case that closing off upper tiers results in little or no loss of atmosphere. And how do you “rope off” half the ground without shutting it?
You don’t think what?
What you said I thought (and to which my comment was a response!): that the future of NI soccer should be solely designed with a 10,000 “hardcore” in mind.
I’d say the three sports, plus concerts, could fill a 40k stadium half a dozen times a year, with a couple more 30k+ crowds and a few more 20k plus. That’d be a perfectly reasonable performance for the stadium.
Great – but attracting 40,000 at pop concerts, GAA games and one rugby game every other year is irrelevant to the needs of football. Go ahead with it, but don’t expect football to want to play anything other than very occasional games there when it doesn’t meet football’s needs.
40k isn’t a “huge” stadium.
It is, relative the needs of NI football.
How about, instead of expecting everyone else to lower theirs, soccer fans tried lifting their pathetic horizons?
I don’t expect anyone else to lower their expectations, nor do any other football supporters. And “soccer fans’” expectations are lifted – we want a larger stadium.
To be honest, the impression I get is that certain vocal NI fans are working overtime to create reasons why the GAA’s needs are totally irreconcilable with theirs.
Then, sadly, you have a false impression. I wonder are your impressions partly formed by your prejudices?
And yes, of course, this raises the spectre of sectarianism. Would you agree that NI fans need to do more to counter this impression?
In general terms, there is always more to do to counter, not only the impression of sectarianism, but, more importantly, sectarianism itself. As regards the football campaign against the Maze I’m not sure how the impression could be formed that there is a sectarian agenda to it. I have heard nothing to give me that impression.
And they will, you can be sure of that. The disparity however, is in the relative strength of the organisations. The IFA has no choice but to take whatever it is given – yet it is soccer fans who are the most vocal and are quickest to throw their weight around. What arrogance!
No-one of whom I know is under the impression that the IFA is not in the weakest position of the three sports. That does not mean that football fans should sit back and passively allow their sport to move to a stadium which would have dire consequences for the sport that they love.
Posted by on Oct 09, 2007 @ 05:47 PMBilly (contd.)
There’d be a certain amount of schadenfreude in seeing the GAA walk away from the project (which they don’t need) back to their own embarrassment of riches in terms of stadia, leaving the soccer crowd to wail impotently as they limp back to Windsor (greeted by Linfield’s smiling solicitors) to play before 9,000 ultras in crumbling stands, bitching about how that 40,000 state-of-the-art stadium would’ve been too big anyway…. But that’d be childish.
Well, you’re entitled to your condescending opinion of football fans, but they will make up their own minds on what they believe is in the best interests of their sport. It just so happens that it is their considered opinion that moving to the Maze would be disastrous, that the IFA should be doing what it can to avoid that situation and that the Government should be persuaded to ditch its expensive plans for a vanity stadium that no-one really wants.
Actually the IFA have backed the Maze, as have the IRFU.
Indeed, they have, but that doesn’t alter the fact that the GAA demanded that it be build at an isolated location and to their spec. So, the GAA is using its stronger bargaining position to impose its will on the other sports – and I pointed this out to you because the implication of what you were saying is that it would be unthinkable for the GAA to impose its will on football.
Sorry, but did you not see Ireland v England at Croker? Or Ireland [sic] v Slovakia? The GAA HAS hosted other sports. That means you can’t keep bitching about how they won’t share!
Um, Croke Park is only one ground of thousands across the island that has only recently been temporarily exempted from the ban. The historical and ongoing ban on other sports by the GAA is certainly relevant when pointing out the irony of a GAA apologist alleging that other sports won’t share with GAA.
Apologist? What on earth does the GAA have to apologise for?
It was Chris Donnelly whom I referred to as a GAA apologist.
I own a swimming pool. I don’t want you using it. Tough. There is a public swimming pool up the street, which my taxes have helped pay for. I decide to use it. You can’t stop me. There is no irony in this position. If you own an asset, you can decide who uses it. If you don’t, you can’t. End of story.
I’m unaware of ever having said that the GAA doesn’t have the right to decide how it uses its property. The point being made was nothing to do with their rights to make such decisions, but about the irony of complaining about others not wanting to share a facility with them, when they have a constitutional ban in place to prevent their own property being shared with others. Presumably you understand this.
Maybe soccer would only fill it once a decade. Rugby and GAA could probably fill it two or three times a year each. The selfishness of soccer fans is breathtaking.
That’s great, but it doesn’t alter the fact that 40,000 is too big for football and the Maze is a ridiculous location for a stadium of any size. “Soccer” fans don’t claim to be anything other than selfish – they are interested in their sport and their sport alone. They don’t expect GAA (indifferent to the Maze) or rugby fans (opposed) to be any different.
NMC
Again and again the infrastructure argument. WTF do people expect? Someone mentions the idea of building a stadium outside the city and the road and rail links magically appear overnight? Of course there isn’t access to the site, there’s nothing there to access yet. It would be a bit funny having a motorway and train line running to a disused empty prison wouldn’t it. The idea would be that once there’s a stadium you build roads and rail links.
You don’t need to build (hugely-expensive) road and rail links if you build the stadium in a city. Plus, the planned links to the Maze will be inadequate, and none of this alters the fact that the Maze is an out-of-town site lacking in the amenities necessary to create economic return or to create an enjoyable match-day experience. This type of infrastructure will never be in place.
With a city centre stadium, fewer people need to travel by car – many walk and use public transport (which should be encouraged) – and for those who do travel by car, there are more roads to disperse traffic therefore resulting in less congestion than at an out-of-town location. Also cities have other attractions, such as pubs, shops and restaurants which mean that more spectators are more likely to arrive early or to depart late, thereby dispersing traffic over time as well as over different roads. And Belfast copes with far more than 20,000 people arriving every single morning and departing every single evening.
Posted by on Oct 09, 2007 @ 05:48 PMoneil
Thanks
The figures you quote are indeed correct as confirmed by Historical Analysis of Sports Council Lottery Funding.
The lions share makes its way to GAA and Association football comes a poor second with approx 50%
I think there are other factors with direct funding from HM government to be considered.Posted by on Oct 09, 2007 @ 06:31 PMSurely funding is linked to attendances etc..
Would the GAA not outstrip other sports by a long way in attendance figures?
Posted by on Oct 09, 2007 @ 08:52 PMemSurely funding is linked to attendances etc..
Re the lottery funding, no; read the requiremenst in the two links posted.
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 05:18 AMThere’s a motorway, and the trainline passes within a mile of the proposed stadium. Where exactly is this mythical train line at Ormeau Park? What about the motorway? I must have missed it somehow. And of course to top everything off, the traffic just flows through Belfast, why an extra 20,000 cars would just fly through town without a problem.
Yet people talk about the lack of infrastructure at the Maze which is a lot closer to both train and motorway lines.
Posted by nmc on Oct 09, 2007 @ 04:15 PMTis a valid point indeed if one prefers Ormeau Park but that isn’t the only Belfast option.
To be honest I see it being pontificated over for 5 or 10 years and then built at the Maze anyway where it’ll be a complete lemon because there is no chance of the extra infrastructure, with its cost, being provided properly there. Already the project has got “do it as cheap as we can” written all over it.
Yesterday I was pondering more about it and wondered if the Oval wasn’t actually one of the better possible locations. Within spits distance of a train line, Besties Airport, not a million miles from the city centre and the whole area around it seems to be getting a facelift too. You’d just have to get rid of Glentoran of course!
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 07:53 AMHow does Windsor Park compare to other third world teams stadia?
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 11:17 AMkde
Are you suggesting that NI is a third world country or just making a comparison of stadia?
If it is the latter the stadium is poor and that is why we are going to get a new one to share with our rugby friends.Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 11:27 AMWould Ibrox not be the ideal place for n.i to play games?
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 12:25 PMrubin
NO
What benefit would that be for NI supporters?Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 12:30 PMUlsterfan,
The lions share makes its way to GAA and Association football comes a poor second with approx 50%
I think there are other factors with direct funding from HM government to be considered.If I remember correctly the IFA was also granted another separate payment of 9 million on top of the 6 mentioned above but out of sheer incompetence failed to achieve the criteria necessary to draw the cash down.
I think it was “realist” who pointed this incompetence out to me so hopefully he can confirm this.
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 12:36 PMUlsterfan,
this article says it was 8 million that was put aside for the IFA, but which they apparently have failed to cash in:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/northern_ireland/2949212.stm
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 12:44 PMFor one reason or another the money was not paid as far as I know.
The issue is greater than the IFA and a national stadium will be built ,the driving force being the government. Football and rugby will benefit. but the stadium will not be built at the Maze as the GAA are not interested in one in Belfast.
Control of the stadium will not rest with one sporting body.
If money is needed to bring Casement Park up to standard then it will be provided.
This is a good opportunity for Bertie to help.Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 01:55 PM‘What benefit would that be for NI supporters?’
The bouncey, rule britannia, gstq, billy boys, stormont flags, like minded people etc..
Home from home !
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 03:31 PMHi Ulsterfan
“For one reason or another the money was not paid as far as I know.”
Usual reason is that they did not do what they agreed to (i.e., incompetence). FAI nearly came a cropper a couple of years back for not doing things that they were meant to do as agreed in the the Genesis Plan.
“This is a good opportunity for Bertie to help.”
I’d be surprised (actually no, I’d be shocked) if Bertie supported the building of a NATIONAL STADIUM for NI that could not accommodate (for whatever reasons of size etc.) one of its main field sports. His “Bertie Bowl” was inclusive of all sports, although with the GAA having Croke Park up the road, it plainly didn’t need it. Mind you the GAA squeezed a few extra bob from him to support the building of his ‘bowl’ in the first place!
If the positions were reversed between IFA & GAA (i.e., IFA had the stadia at its disposal that the GAA has), I’d expect him to still want to have all sports catered for in the NI NATIONAL stadium.
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 03:49 PMI have no problem with a national stadium catering for GAA soccer and rugby.
The location is the problem.
The Maze is the wrong place and GAA will not agree to one in Belfast.Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 05:22 PMUlsterfan,
“I have no problem with a national stadium catering for GAA soccer and rugby.
The location is the problem.
The Maze is the wrong place and GAA will not agree to one in Belfast.”= There will not be a “national” stadium.
Personaly, I think it’s like the Bertie Bowl all over again with all that project’s inherent flaws with a few NI-specific ones thrown in on top.
The question is what happens next?
The IFA have shown themselves incapable of drawing down an 8-million-pound British government handout because of incompetence.
Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.
So the chances of these useless buckos ever getting their act together enough to wheedle the perhaps 100 million from the government are slim to none.
They would need that type of public money figure to convince a consortium of private investors to come up with the rest.
The GAA are in clover with Croke Park virtually paid off already and new revenue streams coming online next year with Setanta about to break up the RTÉ broadcasting monopoly. They also have over 6 billion euros of assets while the IFA can’t afford to fix a leaky roof.
The IRFU make most of their cash from internationals, which will take place in Croker and in a couple of years the new Lansdowne Road (or O2 Park or whatever) so it’s happy days for them too.
The only people who will be left out in the cold are the IFA who in their infinite wisdom seem to have now decided to give the two fingers to the only landlord that would tolerate/can accommodate them.
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 08:44 PM“The only people who will be left out in the cold are the IFA”
Thats what you get for chaining closed the gates every football ground in Northern Ireland on a Sunday.
And the continued refusal of the association to adopt neutral and inclusive emblems at internationals is nothing short of criminal.
Posted by on Oct 10, 2007 @ 09:41 PMGeorge
So the chances of these useless buckos ever getting their act together enough to wheedle the perhaps 100 million from the government are slim to none. They would need that type of public money figure to convince a consortium of private investors to come up with the rest.
Not so. There already exist two consortia of private investors each prepared to build a stadium in Belfast at no cash cost to the taxpayer, or to the IFA – but on the basis of Belfast City Council providing land.
Posted by on Oct 11, 2007 @ 07:44 AM‘but on the basis of Belfast City Council providing land’
As a Belfast ratepayer, i don’t want my council to give away land worth many millions of pounds.
I would much prefer if they would provide top class leisure and sporting facilities for the community in the Ravenhill/Ormeau & surrounding areas.
Imagine if kids from the area actually had access to a swimming pool, for example.
How cool would that be!
Posted by on Oct 11, 2007 @ 08:12 AMAnd the continued refusal of the association to adopt neutral and inclusive emblems at internationals is nothing short of criminal.
Posted by flush on Oct 10, 2007 @ 10:41 PM?
Posted by on Oct 11, 2007 @ 09:05 AMComparison of stadia.
The IFA have done a bad job of looking after their customers.Posted by on Oct 11, 2007 @ 09:42 AMHow about this from Cork GAA for ambition (Irish Examiner)!
17 October 2007
Plans for GAA stadium in Cork to rival Croker
By Paul Kelly
GAA fans in Munster will get one of the biggest sports stadiums in Europe if proposals for a 60,000-seat replacement for Cork’s Páirc Uà Chaoimh get the blessing of civic leaders ....Posted by on Oct 17, 2007 @ 12:47 PM
