Thursday, May 31, 2007
Where faith and politics meet
While one local politician has firmly nailed his colours to the mast on the morality of homosexuality, Cardinal Keith O’Brien is demanding Scottish politicians do likewise on the issue of abortion. In a sermon to mark the 40th anniversary of the Abortion Act, he will instruct his members not to vote for pro-abortion politicians and the Church may exclude Roman Catholic politicians from Communion if they vote for pro-abortion measures. The BBC correspondent claims that past Church criticism of the Labour Party on the issue may already have had some electoral impact (Realplayer reqd). The comments have been described as “threatening” and “inflammatory”.
Fair Deal @ 11:16 AM
Given the amount of lapsed Catholics in Western Europe nowadays, and the fact that Church-initiated fear no longer has the impact it used to I find this “you won’t get holy communion” bullshit so stupid.
Besides the fact that people are no longer afraid to question their religion, more people now than ever realise that religion isn’t defined by how many times you go to mass and how many times you eat a piece of blessed bread.
Frankly the fire and brimstone would work better.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 11:50 AMAre the SNP anti-choice? Nope. So what exactly is the Catholic Church playing at in Scotland? And why to the SNP just kind of acqueisce in it? It’s highly dodgy stuff. For all Anglicanism’s faults, it just makes me glad I flew the coop to the Church of Ireland years ago.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 11:59 AMAstounding that anyone would wish to listen to the RC church burblings given their appalling lack of moral fibre concerning their own priests.
Apparently it’s fair game to abuse children but not to allow women the choice of producing them.
This nonsense should be roundly ignored.Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 12:05 PMIf all were atheist would these comments be wrong or right within the context of his job remit?
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 12:08 PMPriest tries to encourage morals shocker!
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 12:18 PMIs this the same Catholic Church that allowed Franco, Pinochet and Salazar to be buried with full rites?
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 12:20 PMPointless whataboutery. Baby Doc is entitled to hold whatever private views he likes. The problem is that he stated these views publicly and they directly contradict his role and his ministerial oath.
The problem isn’t his views, as abhorrent as they are, the problem is that they call into question his ability to do his job. In the case of the Cardinal, that is his job.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 12:22 PMEncourage or enforce smcgiff?
Will the excommunicaton of Mexican politicians have any effect and is it right that threats should be made to politicians?Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 12:25 PM‘Encourage or enforce smcgiff?’
There’s a difference? Remember the priest will think you’re going to hell fire, forced to listen to Daniel O’Donnell music etc for all eternity if you don’t follow his church’s thinking, so is obligated to try to stop this from happening. Therefore threats to politicians doesn’t even register considering.
today is interesting, because we see both a priest and a politician moralising. Personally I’ll happily ignore both and make up my own mind.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 12:31 PMThere’s a difference?
Of course - I can quite properly advise you but I cannot threaten you.
After all, as we have discussed, the politician is acting on behalf of all his constituents - How can a catholic politician represent his protestant and atheist constituents if he as an individual, not as an MP, is being strong-armed ?
How would we feel if when MPs were voting on Banking matters their banks contacted them and said vote against these reforms or we’ll bankrupt you ?
Is it legal to issue threats to politicians to influence their voting?
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 12:44 PM“the Church may exclude Roman Catholic politicians from Communion if they vote for pro-abortion measures.”
There was a time when they would pull out the excommunication stick, or a good old fashioned inquisition before that.
The snap of the Universal Church is weakening as it fades into oblivion.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 01:06 PMThe Real Ian Paisley and Democratic Unionist Party
Ian Paisley has made a name for himself as one of the most bigoted and controversial people to emerge in the Six Counties of Ireland. For decades he has preached the bible of hate and yet today he is the leader of the DUP, the largest party in the Occupied Six Counties.
The Good Reverend
In 1956, Rev. Paisley abducted a 16-year-old girl, Maura Lyons, who was in a dispute with her parents about joining the Free Presbyterian Church. He attempted to use her as an anti-Catholic propaganda stunt and would not inform police where she was. Paisley was later ordered in court never to go near the girl or her family again.
In 1959, the Presbyterian Moderator of Ireland was on tour of churches and visited a Catholic priest, the Rev. J. Wilson, whom he had befriended. Rev. Paisley described this act of human friendship as an act of “blasphemy”.
On June 17, 1959, at a Belfast rally, he publicly chastised “the men of the Shankill for allowing papists, pope’s men, and papishers” to live on the Shankill Rd. Angry crowds went to the addresses called out by Paisley, burned out the occupants and looted their homes.
He called Pope John XXIII a “Roman anti-Christ” and his Church the “Harlot of Babylon”. On June 3, when the Pope died, Paisley roared, “This romish man of sin is now in hell.”
Paisley, the DUP & Para-militarism
Ian Paisley rants and raves about, in his words, Sinn FĂ©in/IRA however people should look a bit closer to the big man himself when they listen to his words. Ian Paisley has founded, supported and acted as a Paramilitary leader several times in the last 40 to 50 years.
The jewel in Paisleys paramilitary career has to be the foundation of Ulster Resistance on November 10th 1986. His fellow founding members are none other than Peter Robinson and Ivan Foster. To make sure this is clear – the current leader and deputy leader of the DUP helped to found Ulster Resistance. Their aim was to bring down the Anglo-Irish Agreement and throughout the north Ulster Resistance was split into 9 battalions. Ian Paisley has been photographed in the traditional red beret and he was very proud of himself sitting up in Ulster Hall indeed. In 1988 a former DUP election candidate was arrested after an arms find in County Armagh which sent the DUP public relations officer into full flow declaring all links with Ulster Resistance ended in 1987. Two conclusions must be drawn from this, the first being the DUP have acknowledged they were linked to Ulster Resistance and secondly why do people believe the DUP when they say the links were broken in 1987? The British Government has turned a blind eye to Paisley’s involvement in Ulster Resistance. In April 1987 two members of Ulster Resistance were arrested in France attempting to procure weapons from a South African diplomat, was this before or after links were supposedly broken off? Paisleys private militia, Ulster Resistance has yet to decommission its arsenal. The DUP and Ian Paisley have run away and hid from this issue for too long and it is time both communities, both Governments and all parties pushed Ian Paisley on it.
Ian Paisley has also threatened violence on several occasions during his career. His speeches have incited sectarian hatred and he has been at the head of mobs to rid Catholics from their homes. In 1981 he appeared on a hillside with over 500 men brandishing firearms licences.
William Beattie, a loyal lieutenant of Rev. Paisley, addressed a DUP Youth Group after the Anglo-Irish Accord was signed by the Dublin and London governments in 1986: “We must hire assassins to kill Catholics and pay them when the job is done.”
Paisley in his own words
After a Loyalist rally in 1968 – “I will kill all who get in my way”
After Terence O’Neill held a meeting with Sean Lemass, Paisley shouted “No mass, No Lemass”
After a Loyalist rally in 1968, Ian Paisely justified his violent anti-Catholic pleas by saying, “Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners; and the massive discrimination in employment and shortage of houses for Catholics were simply because they breed like “rabbits” and multiply like “vermin”.
In reference to the Unionist party’s Jewish candidate, Harold Smith, he said, “The Unionist party are boasting he [Harold Smith] is a Jew. As a Jew, he rejects our Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament, Protestant principles, the Glorious Reformation and the sanctity of the Lord’s day. The Protestant throne and the Protestant constitution are nothing to him.”
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 01:18 PMIn a debate with Bernadette Devlin in 1968 he responded to her accusations of his unfair assumptions by saying he, “would rather be British than be fair.”
During a visit from the Pope, Ian Paisley yelled “I denounce you. Anti-Christ” several times at the European Parliament. The whole affair can be heard online at the following web address, http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=6842
June 1959. A rally at the corner of Percy Street and the lower Shankill Ian Paisley ranted, “You people of the Shankill Road, what’s wrong with you? Number 425 Shankill Road - do you know who lives there? Pope’s men, that’s who! Fortes ice cream shop, Italian Papists on the Shankill Road! How about 56 Aden Street? For 97 years a Protestant lived in that house and now there’s a Papisher in it. Crimea Street, number 38! Twenty five years that house has been up, 24 years a Protestant lived there but there’s a Papisher there now.”
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 01:18 PMIn reference to the Unionist party’s Jewish candidate, Harold Smith, he said, “The Unionist party are boasting he [Harold Smith] is a Jew. As a Jew, he rejects our Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament, Protestant principles, the Glorious Reformation and the sanctity of the Lord’s day. The Protestant throne and the Protestant constitution are nothing to him.”
This was actually from one of his wife Eileen’s election leaflets, at least according to Ed Moloney & Andy Pollak’s Paisley biog. I understand she now sits in the House Of Lords.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 01:26 PMTruth,
And your point is? Ball/man? Relevance?
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 01:32 PMWhy do you all not address the real question - why does the Catholic Church threaten excommunication for abortionists yet refuse to do to those of the IRA who blow to pieces innocent Protestants? When was the last time the BBC asked a priest this question?
Talk about selective hypocrisy!
So ripping a child to pieces in the womb of a mother is called civilization?
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 01:36 PMPriest tries to encourage morals shocker!
No, it’s Archbishop directly interferes in election shocker, Seamus. It couldn’t happen in Ireland these days, thankfully, but it’s pretty disgraceful stuff. What’s worse is that the SNP are happily acquiescing in all this. I thought their people were made of better stuff.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 01:39 PMSeems more like the Catholic Church kicking and thrashing on it’s way out. Christianity is dying out and fading into irrelevancy, and not before time. The Church should get it’s own house in order before it starts dictating to others.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 02:09 PMAnd what’s wrong with an Archbishop reminding Catholics about Catholic teachings? Calling it election interference is just hyperbole.
And don’t worry Sam, the IRA terrorist who blows up innocent Protestants is still guilty of a mortal sin, and any time he received communion while still in a state of mortal sin he’s committing another one. So unless he repents, he gets to see all the fire and brimstone he could possibly wish for.
Maggot, a catholic politician can represent everyone in his constituency. If he was honest about his beliefs before being elected, then the atheists, protestants, jedis etc. can’t complain if he votes according to his conscience.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 02:31 PMAnd what’s wrong with an Archbishop reminding Catholics about Catholic teachings? Calling it election interference is just hyperbole.
Not calling it ecclesiastical interference is just denial. Thankfully it’s likely to backfire these days.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 02:36 PMThe church aint what she used to be in Scotland, but she still packs a mighty punch. For too long we have been coasting along with only small outcries against the increasing abortion rates. With the Church speaking out, hopefully it will act as a focus for opposition, a place to rally if you will for all that believe abortion is wrong regardless of religion or none.
The Church has been leading up to this kind of effort for a while, beginning with the late great Cardinal Winning. Let’s hope O’brien is made of similar stuff.
Let’s be honest now. Far, far, far to many just use abortion as another form of contraception. This is morally abhorrent.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 02:39 PMIf it’s interference then nobody should be allowed to advise anyone to vote for anyone.
Catholic teaching is clear - abortion is wrong, voting for it is wrong, and voting for someone who would vote for it because they would vote for it is also wrong. The cardinal is merely reminding his flock.
It’s not like he’s sending the albino monks to the polling stations to make sure that people vote correctly.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 02:49 PMSpeaking of faith, where is the post on Nigel Worthington’s impending appointment as Northern Ireland manager?
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 03:13 PMZiznivy
Waiting for confirmation rather than speculation
Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 03:46 PMTo be a Catholic one must respect and obey the Canon Law and the Churches teachings on everything. The Popes judgements on life and law are infallible. If one does not adhere to such laws and beliefs then one will be excommunicated. There are no half measures. Therefore, as most people in Ireland today no longer strigently believe in such hocus pocus they are not Catholics...... and isn’t it great that we are no longer fettered by the religious mumbo jumbo yoke.
I doubt very much if people were ever fully aware of Catholic Canon Law; they just went along with the flock.
One can be humanitarian decisions without religion.Posted by on May 31, 2007 @ 04:01 PM
