Monday, November 07, 2005
What is happening in Paris?
The troubles in Paris just seem to be going on and on. After eleven straight days the riots themselves have claimed its first fatality. There’s no shortage of schadenfreude in liberal Britain or in some circles in Israel. But what is actually going on over there?
France’s Ambassador to Ireland Frédéric Grasset gave a candid interview on Morning Ireland this morning (sound file). He suggested that there is a great deal of caution in the reporting of causes in France because of a fear of the political consequences arising. So far although the riots have centred on the Arabic suburbs of of Paris, AFP reports that there is no descernable religious element to the rioting itself. Indeed a Fatwa was declared against rioting on Sunday.
So is it to do with economics? Much of the anti government anger seems focused on Nicolas Sarkozy, the second generation French interior ministry. Unusually for a top French politician of any stripe, he did not attend the École nationale d’administration. Unusually too, he is an admirer of Tony Blair and is known to hanker after the freer Anglo Saxon economic model.
The Nation magazine is in no doubt that political complaicency lies at the bottom of the rioting:
Behind the facade of France’s democratic idealism – Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite – frustration among fast-growing ethnic minorities, which make up almost 10 per cent of the total population, over racism, unemployment and police harassment have been brewing for years, if not decades. Impoverished Muslims and North African immigrants and their children have become disillusioned by harsh social and economic realities, particularly structural factors that they feel have trapped them in a never-ending cycle of poverty and destitution.
Such factors include attempts by France to protect its own particular brand of welfare state at the expense of new entrants to the job market, particularly those belonging to ethnic minority groups, who tend to be poorly educated and low-skilled and therefore less employable. Relegating poor minorities to the outer suburbs hardly make fermenting problems go away, as the current violence has shown.
Rioting provides a way for these second-class citizens to protest a system they feel is keeping them down. No country in the world can lay claim to a harmonious race-relations model that has worked in the past, continues to work today and will work in the future without regular adjustments and overhauls. The process to correct the injustices may be long and fraught with obstacles, but the time to start is now. And the most crucial first step is the restoration of law and order.
It’s worth noting this short thought note on how the left and right tend to box all manner of events into their own pre-set grand narrative.
Richard Delevan, in his new column in yesterday’s Sunday Tribune warns against smugness elsewhere, least of all in Ireland. In the wake of the race riots in LA in 1992, he quotes a report in the Chicago Sun Times: “The consensus of French pundits that something on the scale of the Los Angeles could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place with a much stronger committment to social welfare programs”.
He goes on to note Michael McDowell’s recent speech when he suggested that Ireland could not afford to have a second generation immigrant population that grows up institutionally disaffected from the police force, “we have to plan for this, rather than ending up with a largely white, native force policing migrant communities who don’t feel any bond with the police force”.
Mick Fealty @ 05:08 PM
I remember my French teacher at school describing the horrible buildings which were being built at that time on the outskirts of Paris and other large cities - how no-one wanted them, how they were going to to be factories producing problems for decades to come. She was right.
Insofar as certain western attitudes have been interpreted, calling these riots an “intafada”, making references to the relgion of the rioters
(as if truly religious people would destroy in the way that has been done?) what is revealed in the fright and hysteria of the Right is exactly the sort of attitude, which if manifest in day to day treatment of Muslims, would inevitable result in suspicion and frustration and ultimately violence.Look at how a 100 yard diversion was seen as such a cultural “threat” justifying violence in Whiterock - certain posters here blamed the police, Hain, the NIO and the Belfast Telegraph.
How much more frustration would be produced by decades of racist attitudes - whuich exists howver much posters engage in cynical denial?.
People dont riot because of their religious outlook, they riot because of how they have been treated.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:20 AMJo, are you saying that, because of how they have been treated, the rioters have a genuine excuse for their behaviour?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:30 AMForeign Correspondent I’ve no idea what you’re blathering about but I’m guessing you’re still confused about the concept of Islam being a religion and not a race. It’s quite simple I see a major global problem with a particularly virulent form of Islamic fundamentalism which is as near fascism as makes no difference. I feel at liberty to attack this Islamofascism without fear of being labelled a racist because despite the media fixation on the US ‘war on terror’ the fact remains that the main victims of this fascism are poor black and brown skinned people living in third world countries, be they black Africans in Darfur and Nigeria, Coptic Christians in Egypt, Thai buddhists in Southern Thailand, Hindus in India or Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia. Whatever hang ups about Haliburton and GWB that the bien pensant pointy heads might have is not going to change these facts, calling people who state these facts racists isn’t going to change them either.
Now we are being led to believe that what’s happening in France is merely an upswelling of anger at unfair treatment by poor French people of many races and creeds, right? Wrong! Read the reports, the rioters are called Kemal and Mohammed and Abdel, not Pierre or Moses or Nguyen, they are attacking churches, church run schools and synagogues, they seem to leave mosques alone which indicates a certain lack of ecumenical spirit.The only death so far is of a elderly white French Christian.
If despite all this you still delude yourself that it is merely to do with poverty and an attack on Sarkozy’s policies (gee, Sarkozy’s mother was a what? A jew eh? Hmmm, that can’t have anything to do with the hostility towards him can it?) then be my guest but those of us whose critical and analytical faculties have not been totally atrophied by decades of brainwashing by Academia, the BBC, the Guardian and the Irish Times can still see what’s staring us right in our freakin’ faces.
For what it’s worth and it’s nobody’s damn business, but before you charge me as being a racistyou might want to know that my wife and son are both Asian Muslims, did that shock you out of your comfortable Jordanstown Polytechnic Students Union circa 1983 mindset? Doesn’t quite fit in with your facile stereotyping, does it? It is because I love my family so much that I am so damned adamant that militant Islamofascism must be confronted wherever it rears its nasty head. If more European Christians had done the same thing seventy years ago we mightn’t have had the trouble we had then.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:30 AMHarry:
One might therefore have assumed, from your intimate family connections, that you would be able to distinguish between Islam and Islamofascism, the latter terms being used indiscriminately for any Muslim person who dares return a stare. I dont know whether to feel sorrirer for your family or you…Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:39 AM6Co: I don’t believe its an intafada.
If a Muslim lifts a stone, its an act of war against the West, apparently. If a woman wears a particular type of dress in public, its an expression of her “hatred”, apparently.
I simply observe these things and these perceptions of Muslims - and try to stop myself from throwing up.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:59 AMSave us from the lazy use of grand narratives!
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 11:03 AMI don’t know much about France but problems of integration are not only the fault of immigrant communities. In Germany, for instance, if neither of your parents are German citizens, it is almost impossible to become one yourself - so you have the ludicrous situation of people of Turkish descent who were born in Germany and both of whose parents were born in Germany but can never become German citizens. In France, I understand that the officially accepted definition of ‘egalite’ precludes any kind of affirmative action to make the state apparatus more representative of, responsive to the needs of and acceptable to minority communities, as is currently being attempted with our own police force.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 11:11 AMOK.
Lets look at it from another angle.
On what basis does anyone claim that these are Islamic inspired troubles?
Where are the statistics for the religious make up of those rioting?
How can a crowd of rioters with at least 40% non moslem be considered part of an intifada?( the 40% is a guesstimate on my part, if you want to refute it, then feel free to provide statistics )
This violence has spread, and it is simply impossible to argue that it has only spread to areas of high moslem concentration.
Why are the fatwas against the violence being discounted by people arguing that this is an islamic phenomenon?
Every riot on the Falls road involves an almost one hundred percent catholic group, can we assume they must be rioting as a direct result of their religion?, the same can be said for the Shankill and protestants.If we don’t use the religion of these groups as a factor in the violence, then why is it used for predominantly moslem groups where no evidence exists of religion being a motivating factor?
Harry Flashman
Having moslem relatives is not more a guarantee or proof that you are not anti moslem than having catholic or protestant relatives is a guarantee of non sectarinism.
I’ll make the judgement based upon how you act and what you say, not who you are related to, if you don’t mind.Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 11:33 AMTafkabo: ‘I get tired of people walking on eggshels around most moslems as if they are liable to go crazy the moment they are offended.’ ‘Why are the fatwas against the violence being discounted…?’
I suppose it depends on who issues the fatwa. A fatwa has been issued against Bin Laden and his side kicks by some Muslim groups, but it has had no effect.
However, Salman Rushdie and Van Gogh didn’t walk on eggshells, and they know all about the validity of the fatwa.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 12:19 PMTAF and others,
Ball please!! Harry’s background should not come into this discussion. The fact that he has felt compelled to call it into his defence is an indication that this is less to do what’s happening in France and elsewhere than here on Slugger.
Now, leave the man alone and play the ball!
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 12:40 PM“I am so damned adamant that militant Islamofascism must be confronted wherever it rears its nasty head. If more European Christians had done the same thing seventy years ago we mightn’t have had the trouble we had then.”
...excuse me, but wasnt there a form of distinctively non-Islamic fascism around and about seventy years ago? Even my redbrick University background didnt prevent me remembering that?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 01:35 PMNow that Prince Charles has gained some wisdom from the people who have helped free 50 million Muslims from tyranny, he should call in at Chez Jacques and inform him on how the Anglo-Saxons deal with Islamic extremists.
The current French model for freedom and equality, and law and order, certainly isn’t working.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 04:15 PM6countyprod
I’d say that when compared to other models, the French one works pretty well indeed.
Like all systems, it has it’s faults,.Having said that, I’m not entirely convinced that this present situation is necessarily a bad thing.
Sometimes things need to be shaken up, just to see what develops.I’m sure France will come out the other end of this mini crisis a better place.Vive la République !
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 05:53 PMMy favourite quote, so far, in this ignominious French ‘mini crisis’: M le Maire (of Evreux), Jean-Louis Debré: Well, they don’t form part of our universe.
So much for the much-lauded French integrationist approach.
Mr Steyn is on sparkling form at the Telegraph, and a real zinger from the New York Post: French abuse of Arab and African minorities.
This story will go on, and on. Curfew, State of Emergency. What next pour La Gloire de France?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 06:44 PMIt’s nice to see you post links which say pretty much the same thing as I and others have been saying since the beginning of the thread, namely that this trouble is the result of inequalities within the system, and not because of militant Islam.
Welcome aboard the reality bus.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 06:49 PMJust shows how open minded I am, Tafkabo.
When you can bring yourself to acknowledge that most of the rioters are (albeit, disenchanted) Muslims, you can hope on too.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 07:39 PMWhoops!
When you can bring yourself to acknowledge that most of the rioters are Muslims (albeit, disenchanted), you, too, can hop on!
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 07:41 PMI seldom agree with TAFKBO but on this one he’s unquestionably right on all counts. 6countyprod, the USA helped sustain Hussein’s regime for ten years before it “liberated” (if you could call it that, with thousands dead since the invasion) the place. Iraqis do not regard the US as liberators. The war was not about liberation, it was about the removal of a WMD threat.
Your arguments are like those I’d expect from a teenager (maybe you are?). You quote a single French politician, and suggest that he speaks for the French nation’s integrationist approach.
how the Anglo-Saxons deal with Islamic extremists.
How is that, by dropping daisycutters on them from above ?
You don’t have much further to go before you are at the point of saying that Islamic extremism requires a “final solution” - it is the logic implied by your language. You are seeking to dehumanize a clearly very unhappy group of people by lumping them together under a banner of militant extremism. It isn’t Godwin’s law to point this out - you are saying the same things about Muslims that were said about Jews during the 1920s and 30s in many parts of Europe. Despite the fact that the Muslim organizations have all issued religious edicts banning those who say they practice Islam from rioting or destroying property; despite the fact that many people from these communities have rallied and marched to call on the rioters to stop, you continue to persist with the view that this violence is inspired by the hate-flavour-of-the-day religion. What is it about Islam that you dislike so much ?
Let’s try to get a reality check here. Religion is nothing to do with this. What we are seeing in France has happened throughout the world, throughout history. People who perceive themselves to be part of a group who have been shat on, rightly or wrongly, will decide that they have nothing to lose. The outcome is anywhere between minor street skirmishes and full-scale civil war. It has happened all through history including at various points in the history of the USA, and of course the UK and Ireland, as well as France. At different times, different people will perceive themselves to have been shat on. In Northern Ireland, everyone thinks they’ve been shat on by themmuns.
The solution to this problem irrespective of where it occurs is not oppression or concentration camps as some people seem to be at the point of suggesting. The perception of oppression needs to be addressed (as it was done to a certain extent successfully in the USA in the 1960s, and as it has been in Northern Ireland) and the hardline extremists dealt with firmly but fairly. Get the balance wrong, and you’ll have a civil war.
BTW Mick, I respect your point of view and will observe your request, but “harry” chose to argue by qualification, rather than by the force of the available facts. I’d normally say that people who do so deserve whatever response they get.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 07:45 PMthe rioters are (albeit, disenchanted) Muslims, you can hope on too.
explain why you think it matters if the rioters are Muslim, or if they are Sagittarius, or if they are vegetarians, or if they occasionally listen to classical music ?
Why in your world does the supposed personal religious practice of people matter ?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 07:48 PMTAFKABO
But by this stage whether the riots are Islamic inspired or not are all rather academic.
All the other 90% see is mostly muslim gangs burning down schools, setting fire to buses, setting handicapped women on fire, and beating people to death. This is nothing like ‘68 or ‘48, or even ‘61, events are starting to spiral out of control toward a situation more like ‘71 and the comunards. And we know how that ended…
There is an very ugly mood abroad in France, on both sides, which is not helped by the heavy handed censorship and suppression of news by the French media. This censorship is not fooling anyone. People see what is reported by the media and then compare with what they are seeing in their own city and department. The media reports limited attacks, people see widespread anarchy. You know things are bad when a PS mayor goes on national radio begging for the army to be sent in.
What the voyou forget is that although they may have French citizenship by birth almost all of them have magrebian citizenships by descent and that the French government will use this loophole to expel them if necessary. France does not have a history of coming up with subtle and humane solutions to difficult political problems.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 08:08 PMWhen you can bring yourself to acknowledge that most of the rioters are (albeit, disenchanted) Muslims, you can hope on too.
6countyprod.
Have you been reading my posts?
Where have I argued that the initial riots were not predominantly made up of people who were, at least nominaly, moslem?My contention from the start was not that people weren’t moslem, but that the iots weren’t moslem, and by that I mean they were not as a result of Islamic inspired militancy.
You seemed to imply in your intial posts that they were, a view from which you now appear to be backtracking.But by this stage whether the riots are Islamic inspired or not are all rather academic.
J Mconnell
Now that the damage has been done, I guess you are probably correct.
There is an very ugly mood abroad in France, on both sides, which is not helped by the heavy handed censorship and suppression of news by the French media. This censorship is not fooling anyone. People see what is reported by the media and then compare with what they are seeing in their own city and department. The media reports limited attacks, people see widespread anarchy. You know things are bad when a PS mayor goes on national radio begging for the army to be sent in.
Which media is reporting limited attacks?, certainly not the channels I listen to.
And the people calling for the army to be sent in are largely rightwing politicians who have few, if any of the poorest in their areas to begin with.
Take Sarkozy for instance, the law requires him as mayor of his city to provide a certain amount of housing for the poorest people, but he openly defies the law.Keeping the “riff raff” out of his locality, and then demands that those he keeps out respect the law.What the voyou forget is that although they may have French citizenship by birth almost all of them have magrebian citizenships by descent
Who is “them” that you talk about? do you have statistics or a source for your claims?
and that the French government will use this loophole to expel them if necessary. France does not have a history of coming up with subtle and humane solutions to difficult political problems.
It’s exactly this level of hysteria and political posturing that engendered this situation in the first place.
The French government will do no such thing, it will try and reach an understanding with those rioting, or at least the leaders of the communities from where the rioters hail.Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 08:29 PMTAFKABO
> Which media is reporting limited attacks?,
> certainly not the channels I listen to.The national and regional media for starters.
I’ll give you an example. TF1 and the other nationals report minor problems in Britany, in Rennes and Nantes. I look in ouest-france and I find that there is trouble in Rennes, Nantes, Brest, Saint-Brieuc and several other other cities. Then I talk to someone in Finistère this evening and discover that there are problems in Quimper, Lorient and a bunch of other small towns.
If thats they story in department like Finistère, of all places, then what must it be like in the real hard core areas.
> And the people calling for the army to be sent
> in are largely rightwing politicians who have
> few, if any of the poorest in their areas to begin with.The mayor I was referring to was Michel Pajon, the PS (Socialist) mayor of Noisy-le-Grand. He made his request on a France Culture news program yesterday morning..
I quote
“Send in the army? I do not know, for a socialist to say that the army has to intervene is an inconceivable admission of defeat, but what I can say is that one cannot abandon the people like this. At some point we need to know whether this country still has a state.”
I would not consider a PS depute as some right wing politician.
> Who is “them” that you talk about? do you have statistics
> or a source for your claims?Of course not. The French government refuse to collect such statistics. I am extrapolating from county of origin for French immigrants over the last forty years, and from what little I have seen of real footage of the rioting. So far the only real footage I’ve seen was on a québécoise CBC current affair show out of Montreal. Even the raw newsfeeds out of Reuters have been a bust.
> The French government will do no such thing,
> it will try and reach an understanding with those rioting,
> or at least the leaders of the communities from where the rioters hail.
Short term, maybe to buy some time, but long term? I dont think so. The 4’th republic started and ended with large scale bloodshed, and it certainly looks like the 5’th will follow the same path, started with a civil war barely averted, and is now entering the end game with wide scale chronic civil unrest.Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 09:13 PMJ McConnell.
I’ll have to check the story about Michael pajon, but it’s the first time I have heard of him requesting the army be sent in, and I have yet to see the situation so bad that all the police are being overstretched.
Yesterday De Villepin said that the police were still in a position to handle the situation, which does not suggest trouble on the scale your assumptions suggest.I’m not even going to bother replying to an assertion that the rioters were mostly Magrebian based upon something you saw on one report.
As for your other points, again you are taking what one person in Finistére said and extroplating, which is never the best basis for making an argument.
And as for your conclusions about what France is liely to do in the long run, it’s a non starter.
Why?
Well because France like the UK is facing a real crisis unless it can find a way to increase the number of working age people to keep funding the pensions juggernaut that is heading our way in a decade or so.
What’s the best and easist solution?
Immigrants with their traditionally large families.
People will be thinking ways of bringing more immigrants into rich western countries, not getting rid of them.Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:10 PMTafkabo and Comrade,
I have been learning a lot about France over the past few days. Thank you for your perspectives and thoughts. That is what I like about Slugger. One gets a different take on things from ‘the other side’. I am just sorry that you feel you have to resort to mud-slinging and name-calling to make a point.
Things have moved on, and the causes of the violence seem to be a little clearer. But we are not out of the woods yet. God forbid that this will turn into a European Intifada.
Tafkabo, you initially said that 40% of the rioters were Muslim (7/11 1050pm, 8/11 12.33pm). Now you ask me: Where have I argued that the initial riots were not predominantly made up of people who were, at least nominaly, moslem? That’s progress.
I have also come to recognize that my initial impressions were flawed in that I thought the whole thing was being orchestrated by extremists. Maybe it was/is, maybe it isn’t. Let’s just hope the French authorities can get a handle on this thing before it gets completely out of control.
An editorial in Le Figaro seems to make some sense:
“France is paying for its arrogance. In the eyes of the world, our famous model of social integration is going down the drain… Vengeance is a dish best served cold. America will never forget the criticisms of its society during the Iraq war and after the hurricane in Louisiana.
“But their criticism is not entirely unjustified. It underlines 40 years of political failure… Too often, ideology has trumped pragmatism in dealing with the problems of the suburbs. Plans to rebuild and renovate have not been followed up with money. In particular, it is misguided to think that tweaking around the edges would give pride and hope to the descendants of French immigrants, who have too often been soothed by speeches presenting them as victims rather than responsible citizens…“Is Islam at the heart of the current violence? Not as far as one can tell. The solution seems to lie in reaffirming everyone’s rights and responsibilities.”
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:45 PMTAFKABO
Here is some more Pajon quotes from France Culture
“Women have been made to stop on the streets of my town. They were dragged from their cars by their hair, they were practically stoned and their cars were set ablaze… “
or how about
“ My town has a psychiatric hospital which has been attacked with molotov cocktails.”
Again this is a PS depute speaking…
> As for your other points, again you are taking what one person in Finistére said and
> extroplating, which is never the best basis for making an argument.I dont know how long you have been in France, or how well you know the country, but as someone who has known France for more than twenty years, has family there, and spends part of the year there, I think it is a very reasonable line of argument to infer from what is going on in a part of France I know very well, and knowing how the institutions of France really work, to infer just how widespread the disturbances really are.
> And as for your conclusions about what France is liely to do in the long run, it’s a non starter.
You obviously know little or no French history. The relative political stability of the last thirty five years is an aberration in French history since the revolution Find a good book on the last years of the 4’th republic to give yourself a better feel of what normal French politics is like, and what future 5’th republic politics are going to be like. It aint pretty.
France is a very brittle country, with very fragile political institutions above the mairie/prefect level. It is ill at ease with itself, and has been for quite some time. France does change badly, very badly, and the French know it.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:56 PM
