Monday, November 07, 2005
What is happening in Paris?
The troubles in Paris just seem to be going on and on. After eleven straight days the riots themselves have claimed its first fatality. There’s no shortage of schadenfreude in liberal Britain or in some circles in Israel. But what is actually going on over there?
France’s Ambassador to Ireland Frédéric Grasset gave a candid interview on Morning Ireland this morning (sound file). He suggested that there is a great deal of caution in the reporting of causes in France because of a fear of the political consequences arising. So far although the riots have centred on the Arabic suburbs of of Paris, AFP reports that there is no descernable religious element to the rioting itself. Indeed a Fatwa was declared against rioting on Sunday.
So is it to do with economics? Much of the anti government anger seems focused on Nicolas Sarkozy, the second generation French interior ministry. Unusually for a top French politician of any stripe, he did not attend the École nationale d’administration. Unusually too, he is an admirer of Tony Blair and is known to hanker after the freer Anglo Saxon economic model.
The Nation magazine is in no doubt that political complaicency lies at the bottom of the rioting:
Behind the facade of France’s democratic idealism – Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite – frustration among fast-growing ethnic minorities, which make up almost 10 per cent of the total population, over racism, unemployment and police harassment have been brewing for years, if not decades. Impoverished Muslims and North African immigrants and their children have become disillusioned by harsh social and economic realities, particularly structural factors that they feel have trapped them in a never-ending cycle of poverty and destitution.
Such factors include attempts by France to protect its own particular brand of welfare state at the expense of new entrants to the job market, particularly those belonging to ethnic minority groups, who tend to be poorly educated and low-skilled and therefore less employable. Relegating poor minorities to the outer suburbs hardly make fermenting problems go away, as the current violence has shown.
Rioting provides a way for these second-class citizens to protest a system they feel is keeping them down. No country in the world can lay claim to a harmonious race-relations model that has worked in the past, continues to work today and will work in the future without regular adjustments and overhauls. The process to correct the injustices may be long and fraught with obstacles, but the time to start is now. And the most crucial first step is the restoration of law and order.
It’s worth noting this short thought note on how the left and right tend to box all manner of events into their own pre-set grand narrative.
Richard Delevan, in his new column in yesterday’s Sunday Tribune warns against smugness elsewhere, least of all in Ireland. In the wake of the race riots in LA in 1992, he quotes a report in the Chicago Sun Times: “The consensus of French pundits that something on the scale of the Los Angeles could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place with a much stronger committment to social welfare programs”.
He goes on to note Michael McDowell’s recent speech when he suggested that Ireland could not afford to have a second generation immigrant population that grows up institutionally disaffected from the police force, “we have to plan for this, rather than ending up with a largely white, native force policing migrant communities who don’t feel any bond with the police force”.
Mick Fealty @ 05:08 PM
Mick
That should probably be headed “What’s happening in France?”
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 07:44 PMFrench pundits think social welfare programs prevent rioting? How does that explain that the majority of the rioting in Los Angeles took place in neighborhoods with heavy populations of people on welfare?
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 08:06 PMThis First Post article makes that point from a different angle, Emily, namely the heavy-handed state regulation of the workplace condemns immigrant communities to welfare programs.
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 08:15 PMThanks for the Blog Mick.
For those who don’t know, I live in one of the suburbs affected by the rioting.
It has caused me no little amount of dismay to see the riots being labelled “Islamic riots” or being interpreted as some kind of militant Islamic uprising, when in fact they are pretty much as described above.Namely the inevitable result of long term economic neglect and racist policies and attitudes of the police force.
They are not race riots in the sense that you do not see one ethnic group pitted against another, the parts of the suburbs labelled “ghettoes” are economic ghettoes, not racially segregated ones.
Neither is it the case that all the suburbs are chronically disadvantaged, the area where I live is lower middle class and full of well to do leafy streets and expensive houses.From my own perspective the present trouble ought to be laid fairly and squarely at the feet of Sarkozy.
Though the trouble was obviously simmering under the surface and waiting to happen, he played a dangerous game by talking tough about the suburbs.
With one eye on the Presidential elections in two years time he tried to play up to his nickname of Le Flic or The Cop by making a speech which, roughly translated said that the suburbs needed to be “bleached” clean.
Well this strategy has backfired on him, and then some.
Every person I have spoken to wants the violence to stop, but they also understand and empathise with the young people involved.
It ought to be noted that rather than encouraging the violence, just about every Islamic organisation has called for the violence to stop, though one would be hard pressed to get this message from the disgraceful media coverage over the last ten days or so.This trouble started with the death of two young lads on the run from the police.My own opinon is that it will take some more deaths before people stand back and decide that enough is enough.
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 08:20 PMAP reports: As urban unrest spread to neighboring Belgium and possibly Germany, the French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm.
So maybe the title should be ‘What is happening in Europe?’
John Simpson of the BBC says that Chirac would be in even greater trouble if he had supported President George W Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair in Iraq . But, maybe if the French had not been such wimps, the Muslims in France might have a little more respect for them.
Chirac’s weakness was exposed when he failed to help in the overthrow of a Muslim megalomaniac, and when he failed to stop those who were intent on freeing the Iraqi people, and France’s Muslim youth is now exploiting that weakness. France has no interest in giving freedom and equality to its Muslim immigrants, or in helping to free Muslims from bloodthirsty dictators.
For an interesting perspective from an American with a French wife, read this.
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 08:43 PM6countprod, “possibly Germany” ? Is it or is it not ? What sort of reporting is that ? Oh, it’s Fox.
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 09:09 PMComrade…that’s just feed from the AP newswire, not a Fox produced story.
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 09:14 PM6countyprod
I’ve just told you that this is not an islamic phenomenon, and I’m a position to know.
The people rioting are by no means exclusively moslem, nor are the riots about religion or encouraged in any way by religious leaders, least of all islamic clerics who have universally condemned the violence.
But hey, don’t go letting something as trivial as the facts get in the way of your opinions.Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 09:20 PMRight on, Comrade. Let’s not tell anyone what is happening out there.
The Washington Post has a 1,189 word report on the destruction and violence in France. The word Muslim is used once, in the 22nd paragraph.
btw, as well as Germany, did you see that Denmark is also getting a little touch of the Muslim European Intifada? Brussels Journal, and Denmark riots.
Interesting days for liberal Europe.
A view from Beirut, and from the Captain’s Quarter
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 09:34 PMRight on, Comrade. Let’s not tell anyone what is happening out there.
I’m an Ulster prod, unionist to the core.You are accusing me of coming to live in France and basically lying?
Cui Bono ?
The Washington Post has a 1,189 word report on the destruction and violence in France. The word Muslim is used once, in the 22nd paragraph.
Sorry, is this a defence of my argument or some bizzare support of yours?
If the article only mentions the word Moslem once, why do you make such a big deal out of it?For the record, was the violence is Belfast a month or so back clear evidence of a new Crusade, since most of those rioting were of Christian origin?
I’d really like to hear your view on that.Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 09:45 PMTAFKABO
Trouble seems to just follow you around.
Let me know where you’re going next before I plan my holidays ;-)
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 09:50 PMTafkabo,
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think Muslims (my Shiite friend, anyway) resent the American spelling ‘moslem’, which you used in your post. You may need to be a little more sensitive in your spelling, although north and west African Muslims (those involved in the riots, right?) are almost exclusively Sunni, so they might not care.
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 09:50 PMTafkabo,
Whatever gave you the idea that I was accusing you of lying? I was talking to Comrade Stalin in that post (9.34pm).
I am not discounting you comments. I’m just saying that there seems to be an attempt to play down the fact that the huge majority (99%?) of those involved in these riots are indeed Muslims who have not integrated, assimilated or even feel part of French society. What’s the problem in stating it as it is.
Most of France’s former colonies in Africa were/are Muslim countries, so it stands to reason that most of the immigrants are Muslim. The Algerians seem to be the ones who are causing most of the problems for the French authorities.
I am as surpised as anyone at this explosion of ‘youths’. Poor old Jaques is scratching his head and wondering: where did we go wrong?
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 10:12 PMThe reality is that certain cultures do not mix well. You only have to look at opinion polls in the countries of origin of Muslim immigrants. Even in Turkey - supposedly the Islamic world’s most secular state - a recent poll by a major university has shown that when asked what should happen to a wife who has an affair, 37% say she should be killed, 21% say she should have her nose or one of her ears cut off, while 25% say her husband should divorce her. If these are the attitudes in the most “secular” of the Islamic countries then indeed it is scary to comprehend what those in more extreme fundamentalist countries must be thinking.
No offence, but Islamic immigrants have consistently demonstrated a stubborn resistance to integration and assimilation. The violence in France is sadly a symptom of this. The mass-migrationist politicians are simply trying to reward their corporate backers with cheap foreign labour, and to hell with cultural concerns as far as they are concerned, or the affects of overcrowding on the health-service etc. It is not good enough for the international Left to condemn all who express fears over immigration as “racist”. Down here in our recent Citizenship referendum where we changed the law so that people born on the island only automatically get Irish citizenship if they have a parent born on the island, the No side called the referendum “racist”. Almost their entire campaign consisted of calling their opponents racist, but 80% of us in the South voted Yes. Ordinary people in the West recognise that there are non-racist justifications for tighter immigration-controls, and it is undemocratic to silence such concerns. In a democracy such people have a right to be heard.
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 10:21 PM6countyprod
I mistook your comments to Comrade Stalin for words aimed at myself, apologies.
As for the spelling, to be honest, it’s a trivial matter, I’ve never met a single person that would bother to get offended, and if they did I’d tell them to wise up.I get tired of people walking on eggshels around most moslems as if they are liable to go crazy the moment they are offended.It’s a stereotype that needs to be dealt with.I’d be surprised if the number of those rioting was 99% moslem.There are no official statistics, but I’d guess 40-60% moslme at most.
Another point to keep in mind is that a ot of immigrants from former colonies like Algeria are in fact Kabyl, and not even necessarily moslem.
You can say they haven’t integrated, but I’d suggest that they have not been allowed the opportunity to fully integrate, and this is precisely what they want.
No special treatment, just equality of opportunity.And it’s no great mystery where the state went wrong.
Keep treating a group of people in a certain manner and they will eventually rise up against you.No justice, no peace.
Same as it ever was.Henry
Do you think my leaving Norn Ireland had anything to do with the current largely positive state of play?
Maybe I can persuade Bertie and Tony to pay me to stay away?Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 10:25 PMRight on, Comrade. Let’s not tell anyone what is happening out there
You posted a made-up, speculative article dressed up as a news report. What point is there in saying “there might be riots in Belgium and Germany” when there’s no flipping evidence that there are ?
Your desire to blame this on Muslims is no different from the desire in 1930s Germany to blame bad things on Jews. This is nothing to do with religion or liberalism any more than the Los Angeles riots were in the 1990s. Your agenda appears to be religious persecution and that makes you a very dangerous person indeed.
I’m just saying that there seems to be an attempt to play down the fact that the huge majority (99%?) of those involved in these riots are indeed Muslims who have not integrated, assimilated or even feel part of French society.
Why don’t you just call call a spade a spade and describe them niggers or pakis ? Most of them are blacks or Arabs.
Posted by on Nov 07, 2005 @ 10:50 PMComrade,
Sorry to disappoint you, but I do not use derogatory terms. Anyhow, there are probably very few Pakistanis in France, so you can’t blame it on them.
It’s mostly north Africans involved in the violence, and possibly some sub-saharan Africans, although, if you remember, over the summer, dozens (?) of west Africans died in a series of fires in slum areas of Paris and there wasn’t any violence from them. Black Muslims are nowhere near as radical or extreme as the Arab-speaking north African Muslims.
I was reading a column by Michael Barone that you might find interesting: Is Paris burning?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 12:12 AMActually most of those rioting are French, and not naturalised French, but born in the country French.
I am finding your tendency to attribute likely negative characteristics based upon ethnicity to be racist and offensive.The unfortunate victims of the fires on the other hand were immigrants, hence their tendency to be living in these hostel type accomodations, as opposed to those raised in the suburbs since they were born.
And it is the result of dealing with state racism and mistreatment from the police since the day they are born which has caused the anger to overspill.You never asnwered my question about the new crusade by the Christian rabble in Belfast BTW.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 12:24 AMIt’s mostly north Africans involved in the violence,
Niggers it is, then. Why pretend you are doing anything other than dressing up race hate in fancy language ?
Your Hitlerian race theories, sitting as they do alongside your false pieties about saving oppressed people from dictators, are a shameful and sickening disgrace.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 12:51 AMTAFKABO, do you know of any good politics discussions forums in France? I´d like to know what French people are saying about what´s happening. I have looked at Libe´s forum, mais c´est assez nul.
6 County Prod, do you really think that some French Moslem youths would have respected the French state more and felt less disposed to riot if Chirac had backed Bush in the Iraq war? If so, you are well deluded…Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 01:34 AMTAFKABO and Stalin,no no no! I am sick of this ‘racist’ argument which is flung around when anyone dares to challenge the fallacies of cosy multiculturalism, it will not do. Challenge the argument with facts don’t just shout ‘racist!’ those days are over. As far as I can see 6countyprod specifically denied his argument is based on race but does base it on religion, last time I checked Islam was not a race.
It is perfectly in order to point out the religious make up of rioters, in fact TAFKABO, unless I am very much mistaken that is PRECISELY what happens when there’s rioting in Belfast. There is a video on the net right now, Ill find the link later, showing the rioting French ‘youths’ shouting “Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar”, one is quoted as saying how Paris will be the new Baghdad, furthermore they have petrol bombed a couple of synagogues (quelle surprise) no mosque has as yet been attacked. Now you can ignore the elephant in the corner if you wish but howls of “racist!” just ain’t gonna cut it no more. By the way did you notice the riot in Birmingham last month, you know the small matter of ‘Asians’ versus ‘West Indians’ according to the BBC, ain’t it funny how they fail to mention that the guy who was killed was hacked to death by a group of “assailants” who just happened to pick him out as he returned home from church, hmmmmmmm, no religious factor here folks, nothing to see move along.
There are a vast number of immigrants and descendants of immigrants in France, from Indo china and subsaharan Africa who are presumably subject to the same discrimination as the ‘youths’ but curiously they don’t feel the need to riot why do you think that is?
So call us racists all you want, it no longer has the chill factor it once had due to overuse. We’ll call it as we sees it and we sees Muslims rioting, not ‘youths’ nor ‘immigrants’ but Muslims if you choose to ignore that simple fact then by all means do so but don’t be surprised by the consequences of your sticking your heads in the sand, by the time you pull them out it may be just in time to see the knife slicing it off.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 03:53 AMAnd I´m sick of racist idiots saying that the racist argument won´t wash any more, because they don´t want to be prevented from giving full vent to their hysterical, frightened discourse.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 09:43 AMBefore this argument descends into an unholy emotive mess, it might be useful to avert to this article, which outlines the arguments in David Goodhart’s essay on the progressive dilemma.
I’m not suggesting it’s comprehensive or even correct, but it questions society’s ability to handle cultural diversity and remain coherent enough to provide for the public goods the west has become accustomed to drawing upon. And it is not from hysterical.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:16 AMWhen the dust settles the result will be that pure globalisation is dead. Only the good old US will hold those ideals to be true. First Asia then South America and now its happening in Europe. Nothing to do with race or class just an idea that got out of hand.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 10:43 AMComrade and Tafkabo,
You lose! (per Yer man’s Rule. But maybe that rule applies only if you call someone a fascist.)
I remain to be convinced that most, if not all the violence in France this past two weeks is not being carried out by followers of a certain person whose name starts with ‘M’. (How’s that for ambiguity. Could be Moses, or McGuinness, but let’s not get too specific.)
Posted by on Nov 08, 2005 @ 11:01 AM
