Thursday, August 09, 2007
What Catholics don’t know about Protestants…
David Adams was good enough to post his Talkback piece yesterday in the middle of a thread where, strangely, it seemed to have been completely ignored by his most trenchant critics. It’s worth posting at the top of the blog, since, in many ways, what it claims is easy enough to read in the threads here at Slugger and on the airwaves each weekday between 12noon and 1.30, but is rarely explicitly stated. Namely that everything in Northern Ireland would be okay if Ulster Protestants just admitted they were/are wrong about everything, and Ulster Catholics are right.
From Davy Adams
I’ll be speaking about Catholics and Protestants today, so that’s what I’m going to be calling them – none of this politically correct, shorthand stuff. None of this coded language nonsense, about “the nationalist community” and “the unionist community”, when everyone knows precisely who I mean.
Something else, I’ll be talking in general terms – I know fine well that what I have to say doesn’t apply to all Catholics or all Protestants – however, it does apply to enough people on either side to make it a major problem.
If Talk Back is anything to go by, Catholics are forever wondering why Protestants just can’t get with the new programme.
Well, I’ll tell you exactly why that is.
I heard somebody on here the other week talking about “the fear” that exists within the Protestant community. That’s nonsense - there is no fear.
What there is, though, is a deep anger and resentment.
And, no, this anger isn’t about the fact that the DUP is sitting with Sinn Fein in an Executive – deeply distasteful as that was for them, by and large, and except for a few people on the fringe, the Protestant community has come to terms with sharing power with Sinn Fein.
The last assembly election results were proof enough of that.
No, there are two interrelated issues that have Protestants so resentful – and I suspect many Catholics know exactly what they are.
One is this constant rewriting of history and highly selective revisiting of past events that is slowly but surely creating a historical narrative that has Catholics as virtually the only people who suffered during the Troubles.
If Protestants try to raise incidents of mass murder, ethnic cleansing or any of the countless atrocities they were subjected to, they’re accused of living in the past and not being able to accept the new dispensation.
Catholics, on the other hand, seem to be forever raking over the ashes of the Troubles – but, when they do it, well, it’s all to do with a search for justice isn’t it.
In this narrative, Catholics are the innocents and Protestants are always the bad guys.
What Protestants are hearing from Catholics is this: “Of course, it was terrible what happened to some of you and it certainly wasn’t done in our name, but you know you did bring it upon yourselves a wee bit, because you discriminated against us Catholics”.
Well, I wouldn’t try to underplay in the slightest long-ago Unionist Party discrimination in housing allocation and council representation, but let’s be honest here, despite what the Shinners and others have claimed, this place was never anything remotely like a South Africa or a Nazi Germany.
And the truth is, most of the main Civil Rights demands had been met by 1973 – but the wholesale murder of Protestants under all sorts of pretexts, continued for another 20-plus years.
And besides that, just how many Protestant lives was unionist discrimination worth?
The other issue that angers Protestants and something that’s being propagated at every opportunity is the notion that, bar the odd exception that proves the rule, they’re the only people here who are guilty of sectarianism.
Protestants are guilty of sectarianism – but they’re certainly not exclusively guilty of it.
As anybody who was raised in a mixed community or works between the two communities will tell you, it might manifest itself in different, sometimes more subtle ways, but sectarianism is something that blights all of society here.
Catholics seem eager to show Protestants that they forgive them – but only on their own terms.
That is, as long as Protestants accept most of the blame for the Troubles and are willing to be reminded at every turn of all the wrongs they committed, then Catholics are only too happy to forgive them.
Well, this might come as a bit of a surprise, but Protestants don’t want or need that kind of forgiveness. What they do want is a recognition that both sides suffered terribly and that both sides were guilty of inflicting hurt on the other.
Despite what Gerry Adams might claim, the Protestant community has continually held its hands up and admitted its part in the Troubles – which, incidentally, is more than he has ever done – so they feel it isn’t they who need to “get with the programme”.
They feel it’s time that Catholics dropped the condescending attitude, faced up to the truth, acknowledged their share of the blame, and allowed us all to move on – on an equal footing.
Who knows, in those circumstances, Protestants might even accept the idea of a genuine Truth Commission – but only if Gerry Adams is prepared to lead the way, by example.
First broadcast on Talkback, Wednesday, 8th August 2007
Mick Fealty @ 01:22 PM
As vapid and useless as saying everything in Northern Ireland would be okay if Ulster Catholics just admitted they were/are wrong about everything, and Ulster Protestants are right
“Despite what Gerry Adams might claim, the Protestant community has continually held its hands up and admitted its part in the Troubles – which, incidentally, is more than he has ever done – so they feel it isn’t they who need to “get with the programme”.”
I’m not sure what planet he’s living on.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:36 PMOne of the most annoying things (to me) is that the term “narrative” seems to have emerged as a way of describing a version of events which is only partly true but is entirely self-serving.
Who wants a “narrative” the most? Only those who really fear the whole truth!
I would rather we leave the truth to the academic historians at 5* rated history departments, whose job it is.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:40 PMUnbelievable.
“the Protestant community has continually held its hands up and admitted its part in the Troubles “
Really? The whole protestant community? God forbid I should have to take up the role of defender of the protestant community, but like the rest of us nagging fenians, most prods had fuck all to do with the mayhem unleashed by the alphabet soup brigade, preferring to duck and cover for 30 years.
The ONLY party that has failed to admit any wrongdoing are the British, whether through their proxy druggies or their own official murder gangs.I’m sure if the ROI government had spent 30 years colluding with the IRA, and if they had sent the Irish army in to the Shankill to murder people, then Davy would be doing a bit of raking himself.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:42 PMHe is 100 % correct.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:43 PM“Despite what Gerry Adams might claim, the Protestant community has continually held its hands up and admitted its part in the Troubles – which, incidentally, is more than he has ever done – so they feel it isn’t they who need to “get with the programme”.”
The only protestant politican who I can think of who came close to saying anything like this was Davy Ervine.
For all Gusty Spence’s fine words over a decade ago about abject and true remorse the organisation from which he sprang, along with Davy Adam’s UDA cronies, continued to murder both Catholics and Protestants.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:44 PMWell put Mick. Loved it.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:44 PM>>Namely that everything in Northern Ireland would be okay if Ulster Protestants just admitted they were/are wrong about everything, and Ulster Catholics are right.<<
Everything? Don’t think so!
I for one believe that many Protestants are living in denial. We seem to be going from ‘blame the IRA for everything’ to ‘one side was/is as bad as the other’ Deary me, If I didn’t laugh I would cry. We witness almost day and daily on here Unionists projecting their bigotry on Nationalists. It is almost like a cry for help, if they can prove that we really hate them as much as they hate us it will assuage consciences. I do not hate Prods, would not associate with anyone that did, and have on two occasions in my life pulled someone up for mentioning Huns/Prods in a derogatory manner. Don’t give me a medal, just clarity from the bullshit!
We also have at least one seemingly professional Unionist troll on here who has probably amassed tons of material on Irish history ready to use should the occasion arise(on slugger it always does). He uses this info to stir up hatred and probably get’s hard from having annoyed someone that day. His mission in life seems to be to have everyone regard Adams et al (our lot) on a par with Loyalist paramilitaries. Harping on about how his nice Unionist community would spit on the working class scum from ‘either side’
Sad!
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:44 PMI for one believe that many Protestants are living in denial.
Way to prove the guy’s point.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:50 PMMick,
I think your point’s been proved.Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:50 PMI think your point’s been proved
or even “proven”!
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:51 PMIf Protestants try to raise incidents of mass murder, ethnic cleansing or any of the countless atrocities they were subjected to, they’re accused of living in the past and not being able to accept the new dispensation.
Catholics, on the other hand, seem to be forever raking over the ashes of the Troubles – but, when they do it, well, it’s all to do with a search for justice isn’t it.
So Davy’s the latest in a long line of Unionists who appear not to be able to distinguish between State murder and paramilitary murder. Has one Unionist ever asked themselves why Nationalists (amongst others) want inquiries into the murders of Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finuncane but not Senator Paddy Wilson? Perhaps he should ask himself why people want enquiries into the murders of the loved ones nstead of blindly yapping on about ‘raking over ashes’.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:54 PMThe two reasons that Protestants are so resentful according to Adams:
Number 1: The selective revisiting of events past, and the way these events are looked upon.
For starters (as was pointed out on the other thread) this comes from a man representing a community that spends more than a month of the summer every year gazing back over three hundred years.
Second, why should nationalists not look back on events and tell their story? Why don’t Unionists do what they want and Nationalists do likewise? Why should it be a case of “You Nationalists do this, but we don’t/won’t/can’t so stop it”?
Number 2: the idea that the only people guilty of sectarianism are Protestant. BALLS. I don’t know any nationalist who would back that up, it is lies. Maybe that’s the way Unionism sees things, doesn’t make Unionism right. Every nationalist/catholic/republican I know will readily admit that sectarianism is a problem in their own community.
The basic problem here is that Republicans can now start to try to prove what they’ve been saying all along was true, HMG has blood on their hands and that our civil liberties were restricted (the civil rights that Adams never had denied which he fleeting mentions above).
The problem is with Unionism’s lack of confidence in building their own narrative, it’s easier to say Nationalists can’t have a narrative, than to try to construct one that doesn’t make Unionism look bad.
everything in Northern Ireland would be okay if Ulster Protestants just admitted they were/are wrong about everything, and Ulster Catholics are right.
I don’t think any republican suggested this, I certainly wouldn’t. However it is the kind of cheap dig I’ve come to expect, nicely making republicans seem condescending, when no Republican ever uttered those words.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 02:56 PMAs Peter Baker keeps (vainly?) pointing out, there is a campaign for Half-Truth going on.
It ain’t gonna wash.Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:02 PMMick in relation to such a simplistic question:
“Namely that everything in Northern Ireland would be okay if Ulster Protestants just admitted they were/are wrong about everything, and Ulster Catholics are right.”
Most Protestants would probably answer Yes to the above if Catholics would admit that it was there fault too for not being more socially mobile and moved down South as actual proof that things were so much better down there.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:04 PMnmc your post is b*llocks & you know it.
As for most of the above, well done guys for proving Davy Adams right, I also love the mention of “his UDA cronies” a grouping he’s had no connection with for a very long time.
Now he’s caught you all out & made you feel so obviously uncomfortable you can heap on the opprobrium as much as you like.Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:13 PMJoe
“As Peter Baker keeps (vainly?) pointing out, there is a campaign for Half-Truth going on”
LOL!
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:20 PMIts not only on Slugger or from Prods you’ll hear complaints about the SF campaign for half-truth.
As I pointed out on the other thread.Davy Adams on talkback yesterday - ‘What they do want is a recognition that both sides suffered terribly and that both sides were guilty of inflicting hurt on the other.’
Widely reported yesterday - The SDLP is attacking Sinn Fein over what it says is an “insensitive, repugnant and hypocritical” march in Belfast this Sunday.
The march is being organised by republicans to demand the truth about collusion between the British security services and loyalist paramilitaries over the past 35 years.
However, SDLP Assemblyman Declan O’Loan says the event is hypocritical given the IRA’s own responsibility for loss of life during the Troubles.Senator Eoghan Harris speaking at the West Belfast Festival last night -
On the past Mr Harris told questioner John Finucane, youngest son of murdered Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane, and others that the “cultivation of victimhood would not do anything for peace in the country”.Senator Maurice Hayes speaking in Derry last month - “If we’re going to have truth, then we cannot have a one-sided truth, such as is being actively pursued now. If we really want the truth then let’s have it all out in the open.”
Everyone of them said much the same thing. But spot the only Ulster Prod and wonder why Chris Donnelly and his friends at Sinn Fein Central decided he must be attacked so viciously.
Sectarianism? Surely not.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:21 PM“So Davy’s the latest in a long line of Unionists who appear not to be able to distinguish between State murder and paramilitary murder. Has one Unionist ever asked themselves why Nationalists (amongst others) want inquiries into the murders of Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finuncane but not Senator Paddy Wilson? Perhaps he should ask himself why people want enquiries into the murders of the loved ones nstead of blindly yapping on about ‘raking over ashes’.”
Yep - the answer being republican terrorists killed Paddy Wilson, and he was only a Prod anyway.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:34 PMFintan O’Toole the other day in the Irish Times writing about the murder of Darren Graham’s father Cecil as he was visiting his Catholic wife and newborn son in a Catholic area.
‘Cecil Graham’s Catholic father-in-law told the inquest in 1983 that he was upset that in the two years since Cecil’s death “none of the neighbours had extended sympathy or even mentioned the murder of his son-in-law”.’
This killing of a non-person, along with his two brothers at different times, didn’t even merit a mention at the time. Not much chance of it and the 100s of others being recognised now.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:38 PMsurely Paddy Wilson was killed by loyalist terrorists-but why let the truth get in the way of a good oul’ MOPE, Suilven?
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:41 PMSurely this whole “what about the truth” nonsense is becoming irrelevant and, possibly, counter-productive.
All it seems to be turning into is a verbal stick to beat each other over the bake with. To be honest most people in Northern Ireland know “the truth” of what happened to them and happened to others. They also know that, being normal people, they actually have little to be blamed for in regard to “the truth” as they were just trying to have a normal life like the next man.
Those seeking “the truth” most vocally also know “the truth” already and, in truth (lol), are the people who least need to be pandered in their current “whataboutery” phase.
If >all sides< agree that >all sides< participated in the shite and were part of the cause and part of the victim-ry and just get on with life now we’ll be better for it.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:43 PMShould that be Billy Fox, Suilven?
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:44 PMPaddy Wilson was killed in 1973 by the UDA…whose ‘political’ wing was the UDP…a former member of which is Davy Adams… who yesterday complained about selective victimhood….Oh dear..
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:45 PMThe identity of the killers of Billy Fox has long been the source of much speculation, as you well know, Tochais.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:48 PMMy fault - it was Billy Fox I was thinking of. I now understand what the original poster was driving at, not that I necessarily agree.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2007 @ 03:53 PM
