Wednesday, October 24, 2007
“What affects us most…”
A RTÉ report refers, in particular, to one response from Taoiseach Bertie Ahern in relation to the proposal for a strengthened e-border - as noted here. But his argument - “What affects us most is people entering the UK illegally and coming across the Border to the Republic” - ignores some of the other reasons behind the need to re-inforce border controls.. along a virtually non-existent Maginot line. Reasons such as this. And that’s before the effect of cross-border smugglers, or some of the benefits of implementing Schengen, are considered. Nevermind those other, more global, considerations.. Update According to Mark Devenport’s blog
UPDATE: A Home Office statement says “There are no plans to require domestic passengers to produce passports on all domestic air and sea journeys”. So does that mean NI passengers won’t have to produce one to sail to Stranraer?
If it does, those new UK border controls will have to be mirrored by the Republic of Ireland if they’re to be effective.
Pete Baker @ 11:15 PM
Illegal immigration would be a significant reason for this scheme and both NI, ROI and mainland UK all need to tighten their borders as all three areas have taken all the immigration they can accomodate.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 11:57 PMOutsider
Pay closer attention to the detail - illegal immigration across the Border to the Republic is not the driving force behind this proposal.
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 12:05 AMIf you would pay closer attention to my post I was stating that illegal immigration is going to be one of the main reasons although the ROI government are not going to come out a say this for fear of being branded racist.
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 12:09 AMOutsider
You need to re-read your actual comment.. and the original post.. rather than what you might have thought you said.
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 12:17 AMWhat I meant to say in my original post is that illegal immigration is the main reason for this scheme with smuggling being presented as a smokescreen.
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 12:19 AMSo you agree with Bertie..
*shakes head*
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 12:20 AMPete, I’m having difficulty with this one. Are you saying illegal immigration is being used as a smokescreen for concern about smuggling and the presence of immigrants with possible links to foreign terrorist groups?
I read all the links, but I’m unclear if you believe those reasons already are a bigger concern to the Irish gov’t than illegal immigrantion, or if you are arguing that they should be a bigger concern?
*improbably rotating one ear clockwise, one ear anti-clockwise*
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 10:05 AMSorry susan
It had already been a long day by the time the conversation with outsider began.
What I was saying was that Bertie’s proffered reason for the need for a strengthened e-border for the Republic ignores the actual reasons why it’s now become an issue for the UK government.
i.e. Ireland’s weak border controls have allowed a flourishing market in the trafficking of all many of people and goods into Ireland and the UK.
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 10:12 AMI understand, Pete.
I’m glad you think trafficking is now a front-burner concern. I’d like to believe so—I hope you are right.
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 10:21 AM“i.e. Ireland’s weak border controls have allowed a flourishing market in the trafficking of all many of people and goods into Ireland and the UK.”
So, what you are saying is Ireland should do a better job to repel unwanted foreigners and their nefarious wares?
*collapses on floor from irony overdose*
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 10:44 AMPete,
are you saying that the flow of illegal immigrants is greater south to north than north to south?Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 11:10 AMVery droll Wilde Rover.
But to get back to the substance (excuse pun - see later)some of those wares are nefarious indeed, being heroin and cocaine.
Not only are they being transhipped, they are also blighting the lives of many young Irish people.Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 11:14 AMGeorge
All I’m doing is pointing to Bertie’s suggestion that, “actually, this will be good for the Republic because, you know, the vast majority of the illegal immigrants we get are from the North!"*
..and the absence of the other points made in the original post.
*paraphrased
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 11:21 AM“But to get back to the substance (excuse pun - see later)some of those wares are nefarious indeed, being heroin and cocaine.
Not only are they being transhipped, they are also blighting the lives of many young Irish people.”Very true joeCanuck.
But the idea below is the solution to the problem?
“UK citizens will carry biometric ID cards and foreign nationals staying longer than six months will need a biometric ID card.
Mr Ahern told the Dáil that if the UK is introducing such measures the sensible thing for Ireland is to introduce a similar system.”
The only connection I can see between an ID card and the “war on drugs” is their potential use as a tool to chop up cocaine
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 12:16 PMI was referring to human trafficking, Wilde Rover. Although I’m not clear yet on whether ID cards would help prevent human trafficking, or increase the vulnerability of victims once here.
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 01:17 PMWhen you refer to “human trafficking”, Susan, I take it that you intend to mean the bringing of people into a country by subterfuge or force, for the purposes of prostitution or a form of slave labour.
If this is correct I really don’t see how the issuing of biometric ID cards would help deter this appalling practice as the unfortunates who are so exploited would not be required to have any documention other than their own national passports, work permits and visas all pretty easily arranged by pimps and gangmasters at present.
On the other hand the one undoubted beneficial effect (and probably the only one) of implementing such ID systems would be that it would be a nice little earner for the executives and shareholders of the companies who supply the cards, for which bounty they would no doubt be unfailingly grateful to the political masters who made it all happen. Isn’t that nice?
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 01:34 PM“I really don’t see how the issuing of biometric ID cards would help deter this appalling practice as the unfortunates who are so exploited would not be required to have any documention other than their own national passports, work permits and visas all pretty easily arranged by pimps and gangmasters at present.
On the other hand the one undoubted beneficial effect (and probably the only one) of implementing such ID systems would be that it would be a nice little earner for the executives and shareholders of the companies who supply the cards, for which bounty they would no doubt be unfailingly grateful to the political masters who made it all happen. Isn’t that nice?
Posted by Rory on Oct 25, 2007 @ 01:34 PM
I’m inclined to agree with you, Rory. I was just leaving the door open for further debate and discussion.
*burnishing halo”
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 01:49 PMHow is this supposed to addrss illegal noth-south migration, if there are no id checks on the border?
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 06:40 PMTom
I suspect Bertie’s pointing to weak UK border controls letting the illegal immigrants into the UK first.
Yep. It’s the Brits fault. ;o)
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 06:48 PMHow is this supposed to address illegal north-south migration, if there are no id checks on the border?
A good question TG and one which deserves an answer.
Presumably our/their bureaucrats will erect a system similar to the Green and Red customs channels at the airport with some modifications of course .
From the NI side Irish , British or EU or legal immigrant will use the clearly marked Green ‘Legal Channel ‘ The clearly marked Orange ‘Illegal Channel ‘ will be for the undesirables/unwanted /non documented etc etc. The Orange Channel will be of an elongated oval construction which will take the ‘illegals ‘ back to NI :) From the Republic the colour scheme of the channels will be reversed :)
Posted by on Oct 25, 2007 @ 08:18 PMI know it’s way out in left field, but, if the e-border is implemented, will the Home Office subsidise passports for Northern Irish residents, as they are the most likely to be effected, and least likely to be able to pay? And, would people that get an Irish and British passport and therefore be a exempted, as in each country they could be considered natives, a returning national on the their disembarqment, rather than a foreign national?
Posted by on Oct 26, 2007 @ 01:27 PM“I was referring to human trafficking, Wilde Rover. Although I’m not clear yet on whether ID cards would help prevent human trafficking, or increase the vulnerability of victims once here.”
Ah yes Susan, but it seems that the ID card is a panacea for every malady.
And it goes without saying that both these islands would be in a lot better shape if more people were a little less clear about a lot of things.
Posted by on Oct 26, 2007 @ 06:17 PM
