Thursday, August 07, 2008
West Belfast Talks and elsewhere
At a West Belfast Festival debate Martin McGuinness repeated his May stance on the Army Council and the IMC:
“The IRA have clearly gone off the stage and have done so since 2005 but there’s still attempts being made by some people to drag them back on and I think that’s silly.”
While the DUP’s Nelson McCausland said he believed it still existed but its removal would be significant. As regards Loyalism, Dawn Purvis, after some confusion on whether there was a decommissioningt debate going on said:
“If we’re trying to build a normal, modern, democratic, European society, there is no excuse for holding onto weapons and I’ve already started that debate,”
Meanwhile in a DUP press statement Jeffrey Donaldson stated:
“The Unionist electorate want to see the complete and total disappearance of all paramilitary groups, both Loyalist and Republican. These groups have no place in Northern Ireland – they are a noose around the neck of the working-class communities in which they operate and their departure will be welcomed by all right-thinking people.”
Fair Deal @ 07:11 AM
Donaldson, unwittingly, gets to the heart of the matter. He speaks of the “Unionist electorate”. Not Unionists (including those who don’t vote) or, better still, victims or even all of the people of NI but the “unionist electorate”. This is all about posturing and votes.
Might as well ask for Keyser Soze to be arrested and chargedPosted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 08:39 AMi look forward to jeffery & co. working as assiduously to bring about loyalist decommissioning and disbandment as they have done on the republican side.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 08:58 AMWell Lorraine, if we all go out and vote for loyalist killers at the next election to create a comparable scenario by ensuring they’re entitled to a place in the executive maybe that will be accomplishable.
And BJ, you’ve no idea the distaste I have for wee Jeffrey but I doubt he’s clever enough to have deliberately chosen his words for the reasons you suggest.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 09:17 AMLorraine, are you also looking forward to Martin & co downplaying the importance of loyalist decommissioning and claiming it’s a non-issue like they did on the Republican side?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 09:29 AMsemantics boys, semantics. loyalism and republicanism are two distinct entities: while republicans sought an alternative to armed struggle, loyalists revelled in the violence and macho posturing it bestowed upon them.
republicans have moved, times have changed and what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. onwards to a more tolerent society where we can live for a future rather than constantly harp on about a past.Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 09:46 AMLorraine, none of these paramilitary organisations should exist in a tolerant society and the ‘moral’ electorate IMO has held back progress towards a peaceful and prosperous society by voting for their political wings at a time when the organisations are deeply involved in organised crime.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 10:42 AMPurvis also claimed that there was no demand in her community to hand over arms. The disinterest of Unionist politicians of all shades (including the PSNI) in pursuing non-republican decommissioning would appear to support her remarks.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 10:50 AMSo Nevin, like all unionists you refuse to recognize that the DUP were the political wing of the loyalist paras. Its only them nasty nationalists that vote for supporters of violence isn’t it. The UDP and PUP did not receive mass support because the unionist paramilitaries already had their political wing –the DUP.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 11:41 AMEarth to Lenny… come in Lenny
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 12:11 PMYes awm?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 12:48 PMDec
Purvis is wrong in what she said. Ordinary working-class Protestants in places like Donegall Pass, Sandy Row, Lower Newtonards Road etc want these paramilitaries gone right now.
For goodness sake, Tiger’s Bay survived 30 years of the Troubles and was actually destroyed by 10 years of the UDA on ceasefire!
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 01:29 PMNelson also stated the ruc were goodies, there was no discrimination and Derry had a fair electoral process.
He also stated that Iris is entitled to air her views on homosexuality and Mervyn Storey his on creationism, because they are personal views. So the holocoust deniers racists and homophobes can join up now. I wonder is there any collective views within the Dup apart from dinnae want a taig aboot the place.
He also blamed the Provos for hijacking the civil rights movement during 1968…and theres me thinking they came out of the ashes of 69
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 01:37 PMLenny, I vote across the UUP-SDLP political spectrum. I suppose Alliance is one of the few parties not to have been part of a pan-Unionist or a pan-Nationalist coalition, coalitions that contained paramilitaries.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 01:49 PMI have been to this part of the festival every year since it’s beginning.
I must clearly state that I and other believe that the quality of questions get worse every year without fail and the intellect of the audience is on a par with neanderthals sporting a frontal labotomy.Time to close this community embarrassment down and now!
John McCruddin
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 01:52 PMJohnMcCruddin,
I’m from that community and I was there last night.
I disagree strongly with your bar stool views, and I object to your incorrect use of apostrophes, poor spelling, and ropey sentence construction.
You sound drunk and bitter. And stupid.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 02:14 PMI wasn’t at the event last night, but someone who was told me that McGuinness said he could see a United Ireland within 10-15 years, and that the Unionists on the panel didn’t say anything to deny this. Is this true Grassy Noel?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 02:18 PMPOL
That is a gross misrepresentation of what Nelson McCausland said.
Seimi
No. William Crawley asked McGuinness if he thought there would a United Ireland and he said there could be. He then straw-polled the audience and a majority voted that they couldn’t see one happening in 10-15 years time.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 02:21 PMSeimi,
as Lillipudian stated…
GN
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 02:25 PMAh, ok. Obviously the person I spoke to wasn’t really paying attention :)
Cheers for that Lillipudian and GN
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 02:32 PMVery well said blackmouth.
The so loyalist paramilitaries have always been of no benefit whatsoever to the unionist community. They have always been and will always remain a bunch of thuggish criminals. Once they were involved in murdering Roman Catholics, intimidating Roman Catholics, murdering and intimidating Protestants, running drugs, stealing from local people, extorting money from hard working people and generally ruining anything they could.
Now they have changed: they do all the above but do not murder people. Oh well actually they still do that on both sides of the community, so in reality they have not changed one jot.
Ms. Purvis would rather complain when the police try to stop such activity (however inadequate their attempts to do this) instead of support her own constituents against this cancer in their midst. Rather then “start a debate” maybe she should stand up and denounce these criminals though I will not be holding my breath. Hopefully sooner rather than later she will be removed by the electorate.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 04:08 PMTurgon,
What you’re saying about how bad loyalists are is all very well, but until you address the historic relationship they have always maintained with mainstream unionism, no matter how tenuous, then you’re wasting your time. Why did David Ervine know the colour of Ian Paisley’s wallpaper ? And if you guys end up making life hard for the DUP, you can be sure that there is plenty that they can do to embarass the TUV about the connections of some of it’s shadier members. They’ll have no qualms about wheeling those tactics out if the going starts to get rough. Unionism may yet have it’s day of reckoning.
I had to laugh at Jeffrey Donaldson. This is the guy who asked Kenny McClinton in a private email “is that what you fought for?”. In what other ways is Donaldson’s attitude different in private from what it is in public ?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 05:36 PMComrade Stalin,
I do not particularly like speaking ill of the dead and I am no standard bearer for Dr. Paisley but why do we believe the claims of a convicted criminal which is all Ervine ever was? This the man who seemed to think that there was a time when murdering Roman Catholics (and others) was fine. He was a dishonest criminal and as such I put no store by his self serving claims.
As to tenuous links between loyalists criminals and unionists I condemn them. They were pretty tenuous but were utterly wrong. I am disappointed to see you buying even a little bit into the “Unionists were as linked to terrorists as SF was” typed narrative.
If you want to go down the tenuous links line: Remind us about Alliance helping Dawn Purvis and giving her briefing papers etc.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 05:51 PM#
POL
That is a gross misrepresentation of what Nelson McCausland said.
Seimi
No. William Crawley asked McGuinness if he thought there would a United Ireland and he said there could be. He then straw-polled the audience and a majority voted that they couldn’t see one happening in 10-15 years time.
Posted by Lillipudian on Aug 07, 2008 @ 04:21 PMI doubt it Lillipudian i pretty much know what i heard, but do enlighten me. And i pretty much witnessed the show of hands and for you to say that a majority were nays is a tad mischievous.I seen it as probably 50/50 with the majority abstaining.Now i was standing along the back wall and had a very good view of the entire venue, but dont let that put you off.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 07:11 PMWas at the Palestine lecture in St Mary’s tonight. Enlightening, but the more you hear the angrier one becomes at the injustice. Anyone else at it?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 09:15 PMTurgon
the links between loyalist terrorists and main stream unionists is only tenuous to the mainstream unionists. to the rest of us the truth of it is plain as the lines on your face
Posted by on Aug 07, 2008 @ 09:29 PM