Friday, May 16, 2008
West Belfast stuck in economic ‘siege mentality’?
Newton Emerson pours scorn on Forbairt Feirste’s investment conference, aimed at consolidating support for the establishment of a Ceathrú Gaeltacht (Gaeltacht Quarter) in west Belfast. (H/T Concubhar) In essence he argues that the economic aspect of case is flawed, not least since “residents of the lower Falls live within a mile of 30 per cent of all the jobs in Northern Ireland.” He goes on to accuse the area of excessively cleaving to a kind of internal separatism:
One point repeatedly raised at the west Belfast conference was that the Titanic quarter will shift the city’s economic centre of gravity to the east. But thousands of people from west Belfast once worked on Queen’s Island. They travelled there by tram and they could do so again if Sinn Fein regional development minister Conor Murphy would spend £1.86 million a year on a west Belfast light rail line.
West Belfast is a place and a community apart, not least due to the massive and traumatic population shifts of the late sixties and early seventies. Early attempts by some residents to move their families out into mixed areas, even well beyond the confines of the city ended in some of them being intimidated back into the safer reaches of their original communities. This is often underestimated by outside commentators. If there is a siege mentality, some of it arises from what many in that community would see as good reason.
But Emerson does have a point when he suggested that some of the Troubles-centric development decisions have helped deepen a sense of isolation from the rest of the city. Not least the deep (and widening) trench that is the Westlink:
One obvious and highly profitable solution would be to drop the road into a trench and roof it over, creating hundreds of acres of prime city centre real estate. It might seem perverse to suggest this while the current Westlink widening is still under way but that project ripped up years of recently completed improvements.
Even mundane cities such as Leeds manage to bury their urban motorways, despite having no local ministers with devolved powers. However, burying the Westlink has never been seriously considered throughout all the many opportunities to do so, including the Invest NI conference.
It appears that certain people, both inside and outside west Belfast, are only too happy with its tarmac moat.
He argues that Sinn Fein’s leadership on this issue is at best misguided:
Last week’s ‘cultural conference’ may have helped some republicans to cope with the stench of global capitalism emanating from the Invest NI conference. But few of the party’s constituents will be helped by pretending that a neighbourhood Irish-language quango will be a force for economic growth even if they find this tribal totem more pleasing to contemplate than the difficult decisions that are actually required.
“Whenever I hear the word ‘culture’ I reach for my gun,” Hermann Goering famously never said. Sinn Fein, conversely, has put down its gun and reached for the word ‘culture’. There is little reason to believe that this strategy will be any more successful than the last one.
Mick Fealty @ 12:30 PM
...about 95 percent of the patter you hear at the Culturlann, would be the Saxon tongue or Spanish, or Portugeese.
Totally incorrect.
Irish of course is the language used by 95% of staff at An Chultúrlann, and the majority of regular customers. English is spoken by many other visitors and those attending classes/concerts and indeed there are quite a few tourists speaking a range of European languages.
I was in An Chultúrlann for lunch last week, there may have been 30-40 there, and i only heard English once.
Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 05:20 PMWhy not ask the people of West Belfast to choose an option
Their benefits allowance forms in Irish?
OR
An extra £10 a week to spend on scratchcards?Then we’ll see how much they give a shit.
Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 05:25 PM“I didn’t realise people had ever been threatened with court for setting up Irish-language schools. Rather ironic, now we have a minister who supports them, for her to be threatening people with court for setting up selective schools.
Seems like educational absolutists all over enjoy their legal strong-arming.
Gotta add, by the way, that schools do not make money. They spend it. “Parents are taken or threatened with proceedings all the time for a variety of issues which could be described as cultural,
I get it from parents opposed to hoisting, opposed to graphic sex-ed, bullied kids, a whole range of cases, I may even have more than the other NI charities combined.
I have had kids brought over from England as a class of dissident refugee pitching for a very real type of devolved asylum at Stormont. The Polish and Sikh stuff in England, is for real, it is not a joke (to them).
Schools make money, ( the same way the Chinese make a pile selling Americans exciting tires for US motor cars), it is a transfer of cash, whether it is wise, desirable, is for argument.
They are clearly a major sector of the economy, people work hard to pay tax etc, they’re a bit like the old Northern Ireland, they grab tax and spend it, they’re not too good at generating it in-house,
That’s life, it is a sector, people on welfare are a ‘real’ sector. People too ill for work make macro-money by buying stuff that their neighbors bake, pour, or grow.
G.
Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 05:34 PM“Irish of course is the language used by 95% of staff at An Chultúrlann, and the majority of regular customers”
I know the staff can speak it.
I go there quite often, my experience would have languages other than Irish or English doing quite well and English in the clear lead.
I won’t put percentages on it.
Best
G.
Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 05:38 PM“about 95 percent of the patter you hear at the Culturlann, would be the Saxon tongue or Spanish, or Portugeese. “
I retract the fake percentile measure.
I should have said the ‘greater part’ in my visiting experience.
G.
Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 05:43 PM“West Belfast is as entitled to regeneration as East Belfast. More so, I would argue, as it has suffered generations of neglect.”
Ah, entitlement. As I said: victim and handout culture.
“I tend to feel, that if you can put punters on seats, then you just do it. If you can open an Irish speaking five star hotel, you should go and open it.”
Hear, hear.
Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 05:48 PM“According to Mr Binary and all the other naysayers around here, it’s once a ghetto, always a ghetto.”
In fact, I said nothing of the sort.
Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 05:54 PMMr Binary,
You obviously have a serious chip on your shoulder regarding west Belfast and the Irish language. The import of what you said was exactly as I stated - if an area isn’t to be regenerated, it’s going to remain a ghetto.
Talking in terms of entitlement isn’t necessarily talking ‘victim/handout culture’. The entitlement to fair investment exists and doesn’t mean that those seeking it are victims seeking handouts - they’re communities seeking investment. They too have contributed taxes....and they have greater potential for greater development than other communities.
Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 08:26 PMCol
Why have “they greater potential for greater development than any other community”.
This is an extraordinary statement.
They seem to be different in some way or other which I do not understand.
Please explain.Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 10:19 PMI was unfortunate enough to be in Bundoran, mid July a few years ago and experience West Belfast culture. I did learn some West Belfast Irish though! Merrydown, WKD, burger, kebab, vomit, Special brew,tennents super? and various other distasteful phrases. “Under the counter fags” was prominent.
Whatever, good luck to this thriving culture.
What’s the “Irish” for hooped earrings, tracksuits and snakebites?Posted by on May 19, 2008 @ 11:19 PM“Mr Binary,
You obviously have a serious chip on your shoulder regarding west Belfast and the Irish language. The import of what you said was exactly as I stated - if an area isn’t to be regenerated, it’s going to remain a ghetto.”
Mr. Gaeilge,
You’re awfully quick to make personal assumptions, but that’s not shocking given our culture.
It’s a skill picked up in the business, of course, but you continue to argue past me: I believe it takes action from the people to improve their communities. Ghettos will only remain ghettos if the residents don’t have any aspiration to act towards change.
“Doctor, doctor, I need an investment. Investment… Investment...”
I support the rebranding of districts in Belfast, including a Ceathrú Gaeltacht, as part of a wider plan but it’s just polish; a lick of paint.
I don’t support sinking public money into projects without an economic basis, a realistic scope or that exist only to create ideological vanity projects for Orgburos.
“They too have contributed taxes....and they have greater potential for greater development than other communities.”
I like the argument for entitlement based on contribution towards taxes—care to think it through to its logical conclusion?
Not much of a stretch to imagine those innocently nebulous “other communities” would take issue with your assertion.
Posted by on May 20, 2008 @ 03:30 AMUlster Fan - the main reason I believe West Belfast has greater potential for development than other communities is because of the lack of investment there over the generations by successive governments, including this one. I believe that the development of Irish language services in the area - the Cultúrlann, the various primary schools, Coláiste Feirste, Lá Nua, Raidio Failte, illustrate what could be achieved with the hard work of the people there. Couple that with significant investment from the state, a la the Titanic Quarter, and the possibilities are endless.
As for Driftwood - well sure I’m fairly positive that those denizens of west Belfast were thrilled to find such a cultured fellow as yourself in Bundoran. It would have been an education
for them. You would have been able to advise them as to the best Cider vintages and the like.Mr Binary,
The people of west Belfast have already, as pointed out above, worked might and main and succeeded in emerging from the ghetto to create a Gaeltacht Quarter. All it needs now is state investment to bring it to the next level. And the case for that is overwhelming, given what’s already been achieved without signficant state investment. The ghetto exists in your limited imagination and, no doubt, that’s where it will remain.
However this idea that you seem to be implying, that the people of west Belfast don’t pay sufficient taxes to merit investment is a joke. Significant numbers of people from west Belfast work throughout Belfast, as pointed out by Newt in his original article. They pay taxes. So the logical assumption is that the community from which the come and to which they return every evening deserves investment - a la Titanic Quarter.
I don’t subscribe to your cynical and prejudiced point of view of west Belfast having lived and worked there for eleven years. It has problems, sure, but seeing past the arguments of cynical bigots is no problem to them or me.
Posted by on May 20, 2008 @ 06:28 AMCoL
Thank you for your reply.
You do however make the mistake of claiming under investment in West Belfast when in fact the opposite is correct.
Over the years it has received more than its fair share when compared with other constituencies.
The comparison of Titanic Quarter is not on a fair basis.
Whilst it is situated in East Belfast people living there will not have any advantage.
Workers in the construction industry will come from West Belfast ,Dungannon ,Cookstown and all parts North South East and West.
The titanic Quarter is of national importance and everyone will benefit not like the inward looking investment of the gaeltacht Quarter.
How many loyalists do you think will find employment there?Posted by on May 20, 2008 @ 03:06 PM“Mr Binary,
The people of west Belfast have already, as pointed out above, worked might and main and succeeded in emerging from the ghetto to create a Gaeltacht Quarter. All it needs now is state investment to bring it to the next level.”
Well done all concerned. If a successful, economically stimulating, self-sustaining Gaeltacht Quarter is already in place, why is the begging dish out for an injection of public cash? What is this vague “next level” for the Field of Dreams that will benefit the people of Belfast?
“And the case for that is overwhelming, given what’s already been achieved without signficant state investment. The ghetto exists in your limited imagination and, no doubt, that’s where it will remain.”
The case for what, exactly? Is it quantifiable?
You were the one who compared the quarter to a ghetto, not I:
“According to Mr Binary and all the other naysayers around here, it’s once a ghetto, always a ghetto.
My own take on that is from ghetto to Gaeltacht. It’s already happened.”
No, the ghetto exists in the minds of those, like yourself, interning themselves. That’s the fundamental problem.
“However this idea that you seem to be implying, that the people of west Belfast don’t pay sufficient taxes to merit investment is a joke. Significant numbers of people from west Belfast work throughout Belfast, as pointed out by Newt in his original article. They pay taxes. So the logical assumption is that the community from which the come and to which they return every evening deserves investment - a la Titanic Quarter.”
I’m implying nothing of the sort. It amuses me greatly to be on this particular side of the argument for once, but are you seriously arguing for a system where tax contributions lead directly to entitlement? Do you not see where that leads? Really?
Dare I ask: what does the Titanic Quarter have to do with the feasibility of investment in the Ceathrú Gaeltacht? They are very distinct projects.
“I don’t subscribe to your cynical and prejudiced point of view of west Belfast having lived and worked there for eleven years. It has problems, sure, but seeing past the arguments of cynical bigots is no problem to them or me.”
Oops. Do up your fly, your own prejudice is showing. You know nothing of me. What is the definition of bigot for today? Someone that happens to disagree with you?
I take the double-affirmation of cynicism as a compliment, mind, although I can’t say I share many of the ideals of those particular Cynics.
Posted by on May 21, 2008 @ 04:55 AM“How many loyalists do you think will find employment there?”
How many loyalists do you honestly think would get off their arses to apply? Of our sects, loyalists have the worst reputation for interning themselves in their own communities for fear of themmuns.
Posted by on May 21, 2008 @ 05:03 AMob101010
Your opinion of loyalists is unfair. After all they have a lot in common with republicans
1 declining state hand outs
2 hardworking
3 tax paying
4 law abiding
5 support law and order
6 tolerant of other views
7 supportive of government
8 etc---etc---etc( fill in the blanks yourself)Posted by on May 21, 2008 @ 08:53 AM
