Tuesday, December 11, 2007
West Belfast: eastern Europe without perestroika or glasnost…
Pól Ó Muirí is a blogger now as well as a columnist in the Belfast Telegraph and ‘eagarthóir’ of Irish language in the Irish Times. He even wrote for the Andersonstown News when at University. Over at El Matador he gives his view of what has happened to his old community in West Belfast. It’s a story of decline that could be matched with the loss of traditional authority right across the English speaking world. Indeed, he might be speaking about Walton or Scotland Road in Liverpool in the eighties. Except that he blames a new political hegemony he believes has politically sponsored the decline.
Mick Fealty @ 02:25 PM
Here’s a thing Oili.
If, I presume, means that he hasn’t done either of those things. That would suggest that you are in the process of rather guilelessly constructing a Straw Man. Or, put another way, making a calculated attempt to misrepresent your opponent’s position.
If you can’t challenge his argument in the particular, then don’t start with the ad hominem stuff.
This particularly important in your case since it could trigger a second ban, and we ban IP addresses these days. It’s a highly regrettable form of action which can lead to some very embarrassing conversations with work colleagues.
I know of one office in Dublin which contacted us with a request to unban them, but when we could not find a match between their current IP addresses and the ones on our black list they remain to my knowledge unable to access Slugger.
In the meantime, play on. Just try to make some passing contact with the ball!!
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 07:33 PMMick
By running this opinion piece does the man not become the ball?Surely if you want to forward yourself as part of your article and your opinion as fact then surely you become the ball?
And some one else’s opinion of you would be a legitimate response
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 10:31 PMBrendan
Bad example re Andytown Barracks, given that the decision to go with the Carvill Group was made by an SDLP Minister (Ritchie.)
Secondly, if we are to make the mistake of judging the performance of political leaderships by the deprivation indices, then I’m afraid the combined efforts of SDLP MPs Hume and Durkan amount to little, given the predominance of Foyle SOAs/ wards on the list of most deprived wards today.
Mick
Regarding the toleration of ‘black sheep,’ the people of west Belfast have long displayed a tolerance of such opinions, and annually provide a platform for such people- and unionists- to articulate these viewpoints through discussions and debates at the Feile.It’s a pity that O’Muiri avoids reading the Andersonstown News these days as the variety of opinions on offer, reflecting sentiments within the local community, may enlighten his attitude- that’s if he’s interested.
And perhaps O’Muiri could spend a little time reading other local papers across the north. It’s a habit I have of picking up local papers wherever I am to get a feel for local sentiment, regardless of the political leanings of the majority of people in any given district.
Were O’Muiri to have picked up the Andytown News recently he would have caught pictures of the annual Aisling Awards, when local people are rewarded and celebrated for their contributions to the community. Local businesses also provide bursaries for university students from west Belfast- including the Shankill (though that may not fit in with his idea of the narrow minded republican voting westies.)
If he had’ve caught the Aisling Awards, he might have discovered that the narrow-minded, insular bigots of west Belfast nominated Ian Paisley alongside Martin McGuinness as their Persons of the Year (I just know Ballymena will be reciprocating with an appreciation award of some kind for the Mid-Ulster MP.) Several other awards were given out on the night, including to community groups from loyalist areas, whilst the son of former PUP leader, David Ervine, was also nominated for an award.
But why let such examples of a self-confident, outward reaching community get in the way of another baseless anti-republican rant?
Would that other communities would follow suit- certainly a greater degree of respect and tolerance exhibited in west Belfast than in those many areas which hold bonfires to burn flags and effigies of political opponents....
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 10:42 PMSteve:
“By running this opinion piece does the man not become the ball?”
No.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 10:47 PMSorry that was a bit curt. This is why it’s not permissible:
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 10:52 PMAw come on now Chris, surely the Doc’s been co-opted into the project? ;-) All Martin’s jibes about the Taliban now forgiven and forgotten.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 11:11 PMWhat I believe, and you can do with it what you want, Mick, is this: I don’t think the Belfast Telegraph or the Irish Times are bastions of diverse opinion. I see that they promote a rather narrow view of the world in which anything can be said or written about republicans or those who share a greener view of the world. If because I say that I feel that Pól Ó MuirÃ’s writings conform to that line pretty diligently I am to be accused of launching an ad hominem attack on Pól Ó MuirÃ, I would view that as a rather crude attempt to suppress debate. After all what was Ó Muiri’s original piece except a thinly veiled ad hominem attack on those who believe differently to him. I have read pieces by Pól Ó Muirà which have been downright nasty and libellous regarding people I know and respect. That’s playing the man for you. As far as I can see nothing I’ve written comes close to an ad hominem attack and I resent your representation of my contributions as such. Simply put, as far as I’m concerned, Ó Muirà has a credibility problem and you’re only compounding it with your, if I may say so, selective protectionism.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 11:20 PMYou know very well that you have past form on this. But have it your own way.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 12:04 AMPast form isn’t the issue or it shouldn’t be.
But it reminds me of that old xtc song - the censors appear to be working overtime.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 12:34 AMSlugger works on two main principles so far as participation in debate: the entry bar should be as high as possible, but the quality bar should be as high as possible.
What you are engaged in is purely personal knobbling of the writer. Worse some of it at least is based on fraudulent conjecture.
That you have repeated the offence when you know exactly what the line only indicates mal-intent.
As for censors, where’s the incision? It’s called putting a marker down. Consider it laid down. I’d rather have you included, but if you continue to self-exclude by seeking to play fast a loose with the rules, there is nothing much I can do.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 08:57 AMChris the A’Town Barracks is not a bad example, whatever Minister made the decision(and it was actually a Direct Ruler who decided in principle tghat the land should shamefully become anotther apartment block above / chinese take out below) -SF should not have stood for it.
They should have added this issue to their barganing list at St Andrews instead of Irish Language (they did well on that) OTRs and the McCabe murderers.
The point it - and you will not accept it - that other MPs argued for their constituencies, in the absence of having Executive powers - and got things delivered.
SF prefer street politics and placards to delivering progress.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 10:11 AMWhere’s the fraudeulent conjecture? Kindly point it out to me so I can ascertain that you are in fact talking out of your backside in order to protect what is an invidious position.
Self exclude? The ultimate cop out of a censor. Like SInn Féin excluded themselves from participation in television programmes during the reign of Section 31 because they believed in what SF believed in then…
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 10:50 AMbrendan,belfast:
“Chris the A’Town Barracks is not a bad example, whatever Minister made the decision(and it was actually a Direct Ruler who decided in principle tghat the land should shamefully become anotther apartment block above / chinese take out below) -SF should not have stood for it.”Did one of the Maskeys, Paul I think, not actually welcome the DSD announcement when it was first made? Can anyone here clarify?
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 12:33 PMcorrect URQUHART Paul Maskey, one of the more pro active SF councillors / MLAs in the west did welcome the development before somebody had a word in his ear about ‘the community’.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 02:32 PMChris the A’Town Barracks is not a bad example, whatever Minister made the decision(and it was actually a Direct Ruler who decided in principle tghat the land should shamefully become anotther apartment block above / chinese take out below) -SF should not have stood for it.
Brendan
I fear you’re a bit behind the game. Sinn Fein didn’t stand for it- they led the charge against the Carvill plans and the group dropped their involvement in the project after meeting with Gerry Adams.
I note you omit to acknowledge Margaret Ritchie’s involvement.
Oh, and have we dropped the reference to deprivation indices after I pointed out the ramifications of such an approach for the respective SDLP MPs in Derry?
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 04:27 PMOh, and have we dropped the reference to deprivation indices after I pointed out the ramifications of such an approach for the respective SDLP MPs in Derry?
No - i just didn’t bother reading your long, rambling contribution.
you just dont want to take my point on the west and the barracks. why did SF politicans let the situation arise whereby there was ever going to be apartments built there? whay didn’t they negotiate the issue properly in the first place?
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 04:36 PMChris,
Do you have the Moyle result? I hear your man humiliated the SDLP and improved SF’s percentage in the ward.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 04:42 PMBrendan,
Surely there is a question of scale here?
Would anyone really expect what is essentially a planning matter, no matter how serious, to really be a part of negotiations which sought a solution to the conflict we have had here? Which were attempting to form a power-sharing executive between diametrically opposed groups.
I really don’t think so.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 04:42 PMFolks, let’s not get too far into the Noble Indices thing. Because up there with Derry and Belfast is Newry & Mourne, Moyle, Strabane and Limavady, if memory serves me right.
In essence they prove very little about political leadership, other than some areas - through often no design of their own - are higher up the list than others.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 08:17 PMThis is a long way from West Belfast. The riots took the kids out of school, they burned down or blew up the jobs, they vilified any nationalists and socialists who did not get their joined up total war thinking, until the only jobs left were made up community jobs, and then they took those.
The problem was the difference between revolution and tradition. Das Kapital and Social Capital. Socialism on an island of smallholders. Violence and civil rights, Agrarian disorder and industrial relations. Equality and enterprise. Ourselves alone and globalisation. Republicanism and religion.
A movement on one side of a sectarian fault line.
There was no resolution by way of the Provo ‘revolution’. They were a waste of time.
West Belfast is their space.
Posted by on Dec 13, 2007 @ 10:40 PM
