Friday, November 10, 2006
“Waiting for the wheels to come off”
One of the duties incumbent on any director is to make sure that all your actors are performing in the same play. Not that the programme team is anyway responsible, but tonight’s edition of Hearts and Minds hosts a strangely dysfunctional discussion on the St Andrews Agreement. Five individuals, five differently referenced realities, with little sign of any mutual reference. Quote of the night comes from Naomi Long: “The things that you leave out tell their own story. When we get to the First bump in the road, the wheels will come off”.
Mick Fealty @ 12:18 AM
I don’t usually pay much attention to Naomi (nor her to me to be fair!) but in this she is probably correct.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 01:11 AMJulian
Pay more attention and you might learn something!
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 01:43 AMNeat line, but the Alliance’s whole position is fundamentally wrong. You cannot force people together. To do is counter productive, because people resent it and the thought of it might be enough to break the deal. The way forward is to create a solutions where people can move together by themselves, at their own pace.
It is not up to this Agreement to solve these problems. The Agreement is there to put in place structures where these problems can be solved - in other words some kind of working local government. Forcing a lot of extra preconditions helps no one on that.
The Agreement is brittle because people do not trust each other, and do not trust each other’s representatives to do the things they have said. That remains the case regardless of what is in the document.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 01:58 AMkensei
spot on, parties seem to want to solve all norn iron’s problems prior to as Assembley, forgeting that that’s exactly what the Assembly is for.
Its trust though, that ‘s the biggie, and that has to be built.Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 02:08 AMI thought Alastair McDonnell made the most interesting contributions of the evening with regard Sinn Feins dysfunctional attitude to policing - ie. its ok when it do with something like a parking tickets but beaten up grannie and raped teenagers are another case and the police should not be involved.
He put Michelle Gildernew on the back foot. It was refreshing to see nationalists bickering for a change altho Gregory Campbell clearly felt left out as he then picked a fight with Alan McFarland
In terms of the poll results, for Ian Paisley Jnr to have done so well was a surprise. I’d say the brood of ex YU workers at DUP headquarters weren’t too pleased about that!
One final point - are DUP representatives told to deal with any questions about future leaders of the DUP with a big grin? I have noticed this a few times before and then last night when asked about the poll results in terms of the next leader of the DUP, Campbell stretched his mouth into a cheesy grin. Slightly disconcerting.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 08:49 AMPerhaps the DUP is taking its cue from the old Russian Communist Party, after all most of their old leaders were dead for a few years before any one was told/noticed. Do you think Ian will end up like Lennin pickled on the Ravenhill Road !!
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 09:48 AMI usually enjoy Hearts and Minds but last night’s edition was mind-numbingly boring, consisting of will never bees from each of the parties. Interesting to see that Alan McFarland, lacking any serious comments to make, was reduced to taunting the DUP about the Irish language section of the Agreement. This follows on from comments in a simliar vein by Michael McGimpsey. It was ham-fisted and ineffective as Campbell was able to dismiss it out of hand. What in the name of God are we paying these idiots for?
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 10:02 AMI think people in NI are finally starting to see what the DUP are, a party who can only succeed when they have something to attack - first the UUP now SF, taking decisions is not what they do.
They have made a complete and utter mess of the negotiations and Blair and Aherne have run rings around them..........the awful thought of these people being in power is second only to continued direct rule by the NIO and the biggest megalomaniac of all Hain.
A rock and a hard place come to mind!
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 10:05 AMHrvatska
I usually enjoy Hearts and Minds but last night’s edition was mind-numbingly boring
I know what you mean. I went to bed half way through. I think it was because all the parties had the B team out so everything was predictable and scripted. One sensed the real action and reaction to the poll was elsewhere.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 10:15 AM“strangely dysfunctional”
What’s the problem?
That’s the province’s strong suit.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 10:24 AMKensei
No one’s trying to force people together. Alliance is a Liberal party, “forcing” people to do anything is fundamentally opposite to what we believe in.
Problem is, the current deal is trying to force people apart. That cannot work.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 10:32 AMIJP
I shall pay rapt attention henceforth.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 10:47 AMPerhaps the DUP is taking its cue from the old Russian Communist Party, after all most of their old leaders were dead for a few years before any one was told/noticed. Do you think Ian will end up like Lennin pickled on the Ravenhill Road !!
They tried to pickle me a while ago, but fortunately I had a miraculous recovery at one of Kim Il-Sung’s private hospitals, at the expense of the CIA.
Neat line, but the Alliance’s whole position is fundamentally wrong. You cannot force people together.
Kensei, as IJP has said, this is not the policy.
The idea is to try to persuade people to stop thinking of themselves as being apart in the first place.
Compare this with the policy essentially being pursued by the governments and the four largest policies, which is is a kind of forced accomodation between people who are being actively encouraged to regard each other as different and irreconcilable. What they are all about is “separate but equal”. That can’t work, and anyone who says that it is the basis for a sustainable future is lying to you. However, despite stacks of successive failures of power sharing built on this model, the politicians still don’t seem to get it.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 12:13 PMAs stated by Kensei the key issue is trust. Not just among the parties doing the dancing, but with their electorate as well.
It was quite a boring edition last night, McFarland could have got more stuck into the Campbell over the DUP u-turn and got him a bit hot under the collar.
The exchange between McDonnell and Gildernew was the highlight of the night.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 12:24 PM“No one’s trying to force people together. Alliance is a Liberal party, “forcing” people to do anything is fundamentally opposite to what we believe in.”
Ok. I’ve never heard an Alliance person come up with any solution that deals with the reality on the ground, but let’s see. What was missing from the StAA that the Alliance would like in there? What is Alliances solution to tackling those problems?
“The idea is to try to persuade people to stop thinking of themselves as being apart in the first place.”
We are apart. Ignoring reality doesn’t change it one bit.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 12:31 PM‘Trust’ is a red herring, IMO. It’s the constitutional question, stupid.
As the unionist/nationalist percentages have come closer together the political arteries have hardened and the paramilitary godfathers have intensified their control over local communities. Apartheid rules, KO.
It’s likely that the two governments will continue to pay more attention to the demands of the godfathers than to politicians from the UUP-SDLP spectrum; the victims will be left with the scraps.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 12:39 PMOk. I’ve never heard an Alliance person come up with any solution that deals with the reality on the ground, but let’s see.
(1) None of the large parties have come up with a sustainable, comprehensive solution that deals with any of our problems in Northern Ireland. The latest one, the St Andrew’s “Agreement” (not an agreement at all, but a position paper from the governments) is just about to fail as well. Why hold Alliance to standards that you’re not holding the other parties to ?
(2) You’re approaching the problem from the wrong direction. The whole idea is not to “deal with” it, but change it. The reality on the ground is a divided people, led astray by tribalist politicians who have no vested interest in seeing the community united. We need to unite people and break down the tribal barriers. Without that, there cannot be a solution.
What was missing from the StAA that the Alliance would like in there? What is Alliances solution to tackling those problems?
Forgive me for avoiding the question, but the StAA is dead. Neither the SF nor the DUP are prepared to move upon it.
You can read all about the Alliance alternative on their website.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 01:09 PMIt’s likely that the two governments will continue to pay more attention to the demands of the godfathers than to politicians from the UUP-SDLP spectrum; the victims will be left with the scraps.
Nevin, the paramilitaries cannot exist without support on the ground. That support can be broken by application of a balanced mix between politics, and law and order.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 01:10 PM...the paramilitaries cannot exist without support on the ground…
The paramilitries only need one or two numb-nuts to carry out a campaign of terror, e.g. the recent fire bomb attacks not needing a huge organisation behind them. Such people were attracted to the Provos for years, when SF and the bhoys had a minority level of support and, as we all know, that didn’t stop their treason.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 01:17 PM“Interesting to see that Alan McFarland, lacking any serious comments to make, was reduced to taunting the DUP about the Irish language section of the Agreement. This follows on from comments in a simliar vein by Michael McGimpsey. It was ham-fisted and ineffective as Campbell was able to dismiss it out of hand. What in the name of God are we paying these idiots for?”
And why not? It has been sneeked in under the noses of the DUP and is essential to the way life will be lived in this part of the country. Not only will the Irish Language be a huge waste of money, it is an attempt to alienate unionist people from the mainstream of civic society here.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 01:46 PM“(1) None of the large parties have come up with a sustainable, comprehensive solution that deals with any of our problems in Northern Ireland. The latest one, the St Andrew’s “Agreement” (not an agreement at all, but a position paper from the governments) is just about to fail as well. Why hold Alliance to standards that you’re not holding the other parties to ?”
The StAA is not, and I don’t think it claims to be, a solution to all our problems. No such document could exist. It is trying to set up a framework in which those problems can be solved. So my question is valid.
“(2) You’re approaching the problem from the wrong direction. The whole idea is not to “deal with” it, but change it. The reality on the ground is a divided people, led astray by tribalist politicians who have no vested interest in seeing the community united. We need to unite people and break down the tribal barriers. Without that, there cannot be a solution.”
What lovely sentiments unfortunately they are meaningless gibberish. The first step to creating change is accepting the current reality. If you don’t do that and just wish hard that people could just come together, you’ll get nothing done. A lot like the Alliance Party.
“Forgive me for avoiding the question, but the StAA is dead. Neither the SF nor the DUP are prepared to move upon it.”
We’re not quite there yet. Though I think I just moved into the “No” camp after reading more on The DUPers position on devolution of justice powers:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=713642
There is no way any sane Republican could support this.
“You can read all about the Alliance alternative on their website.”
I’d prefer is someone gave me the abridged version, thanks.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 02:17 PMparsifal ,
‘spot on, parties seem to want to solve all norn iron’s problems prior to as Assembley, forgeting that that’s exactly what the Assembly is for.’
So that’s what it’s for then ? I though it was just to keep local do nothing politicians on the public payroll so that instead of doing nothing and getting half pay they will be able to do more nothing on full pay ?
It’s already been established that a devolved NI two part Government will have no power to legislate on economic policy for NI or change it’s tax structure .
Question :
‘Who do prefer as Northern Ireland’s Minister for Justice ?’
Answer :
Paul Goggins ( The present Minister flown in from England to do the necesary )
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 03:04 PMKensei,
‘It is not up to this Agreement to solve these problems. The Agreement is there to put in place structures where these problems can be solved - in other words some kind of working local government. Forcing a lot of extra preconditions helps no one on that. ‘
On the face of it your post makes absolute sense .
The question which has to be asked is can any ‘structure’ solve these problems in the context of a 6 county NI State ? I would say No . For the very State itself is dysfunctional from a ‘normal democracy’ point of view .It’s not as if both Governments haven’t tried for the past 40 years or so ? You can call them preconditions or qualifications but at the end of the day they mean the same thing . There is no trust between the politicians on both sides. When one side is determined to maintain the State and the other to end the State’s existence preferably sooner rather than later then all you have is a two legged bar stool that will never get off the ground without third party support .
A permanent politically and economically handicapped State with a future barely less bleak than it’s past . A ‘Nowhere” State a public sector dominated ‘utopia ‘ for losers .
Irish Nationalists and Republicans are making a huge mistake in thinking that the SAA is anything more than another narrow political cul de sac , from which sooner or later they will be forced to retreat
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 03:20 PMparsifal ,
Correction .
Question :
‘Who do prefer as Northern Ireland’s Minister for Justice ?’ Gerry Kelly (SF) or Ian Paisley Junior (DUP) ?
Answer :
Paul Goggins ( The present Minister flown in from England to do the necesary )
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 03:23 PMCS, I think it’s more likely that the governments will ‘legitimize’ the control that the paramilitary godfathers exert in their fiefdoms. As a friend of mine once graphically described it: “baseball bats with blue flashing lights”.
Posted by on Nov 10, 2006 @ 03:24 PM
