Friday, May 19, 2006
UUP need to learn some tough lessons, fast…
If some of the UUP’s insiders were relishing the media attention the Ervine deal got them at the beginning of the week, they’re unlikely to still be doing so now. It seems Reg Empey has suffered the first crisis of his leadership: and he has some important lessons that will have to be learned and learned quickly if they are to have a viable long term future.
Mick Fealty @ 05:06 PM
The PUP and UVF officially represent about 4,000 people across Northern Ireland. I for one would like to think that the ‘loyalist community’ is somewhat larger than that.
It is. Most of them vote for the DUP.
Sinn Fein lie when they say they are not connected to the IRA. The DUP lie when they they that they are in favour of law and order and opposed to terrorism. People who vote for SF and the DUP know that. Such is life in the north of Ireland. Farcical!
Posted by on May 19, 2006 @ 09:18 PMwu: “Dread, facts, litter, TAFK (are u all one person?!) - funny how none of you answer the point about the red berets! “
LOL… Here that TAF—you’re just a figment of my fevered imagination!!
As for the red berets—are they extant presently? If so, where? If not, what’s the point?
Arguably, its the one point of not living in the past I’ve seen in a while, making it, if not a “good” thing, a sign of progress.
Posted by on May 19, 2006 @ 09:22 PMWee Ulsterman.
Why you are asking me to answer questions on behalf of the DUP I don’t know.
Take it up with the DUP, I’m sure they have more than enough people who would be happy to speak for the party.Posted by on May 19, 2006 @ 09:30 PMIf Carson had a cat it’s claws would have been sharper. Get back to your ball of wool kitty.
Posted by on May 19, 2006 @ 10:21 PMhave been asking people i know to be UUP voters if the Irvine factor will make any difference to how they vote, i.e. UUP, no difference, as I see it the big danger for the UUP isn’t being deserted by loyal UUP voters in the future, the danger lies with the party getting into a panic, as for the DUP criticism people are not stupid the know that;
* DUP sit on the Police Board with the PUP’s Dawn Purvis.
* DUP votes elected Hugh Smyth as Lord Mayor in 1997
* DUP had no problem with Tommy Kirkham supporting its group on Newtownabbey Council
* DUP was involved in Ulster Resistance
* DUP was involved in the Third Force
* DUP’s Willie McCrea spoke on a platform with Billy Wright, then head of the LVF
* EX UDA man Gary Blair, who was convicted of aiding and abetting murder, is a DUP party officer in Ballymoney.
There is even a photograph of Jeffrey Donaldson’s one time party leader and employer Lord Molyneaux inspecting ranks of balaclava wearing paramiltaries while wearing full Orange regalia complete with medals!Posted by on May 19, 2006 @ 11:09 PMWee Ulsterman your spot on, they led the loyalist community into the mess we are in now. And its plain to see that they dont want things to change as they wont go into government until everyone is bowing down to there rules, instead of going in and fighting the fight from within. If they keep going on like this they will find themselves out of a job and they will push the unionist community into a united ireland and the likes of Paisley and Robinson will take of somewhere without a second thought. Everyone knows they have connections with a paramilitary group and im sure it will all come out.
Posted by on May 19, 2006 @ 11:10 PMHave been asking a few people both at work and locally who claim to support us if the Irvine affair will make any difference in how they vote, no difference, I am convinced that the real danger lies not in a voter backlash but in the party getting into a panic!
Also people aren’t stupid, they can see through the DUP, after all they know that the DUP sit on the Police Board with Dawn Purvis, Chairwoman of the PUP, they helped elect Hugh Smyth as Lord Mayor way back in 1997 and have no problem with Tommy Kirkham supporting its group on Newtownabbey Council. They were involved with both the third force and Ulster Resistance and that Willie McCrea spoke on a platform with Billy Wright, then head of the LVF. Finally we have Ex UDA man Gary Blair, who was convicted of aiding and abetting murder, employed by the DUP as a party officer in Ballymoney.
There is even a photograph of Jeffrey Donaldson’s onetime employer lord Molyneaux complete with Orange regalia resplendent with war medals inspecting ranks of balaclava wearing loyalists.
Posted by on May 19, 2006 @ 11:46 PMops
Posted by on May 19, 2006 @ 11:47 PMHas it really now reached the stage at which the UUP is defending its actions with the argument that “the DUP got there first”?
Alex
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 12:03 AMWhat now seems to be certain is that Empey reached out to 2 and possibly 3 other MLAs before he reached Ervine.
His claims on Monday, that he felt he had a duty to reach out to Loyalists was, in fact, hypocritical crap. He ended up with Ervine because he had run out of other options. This boils down to pure greed for an extra seat.
Well said Alex Kane about the “Dup got there first” argument.
In exactly the same way that the UUP’s inner circle refused to believe that they would meltdown at the last election, they are now back in the bunker and inventing stories of how much support they are getting on the ground
GoodByeReg
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 12:25 AMhttp://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/may18_UUP_egg_on_face__NEmerson.php
Interesting piece here on the UUP/UVF/Pup. It even mentions the Chinese translation: Irleand means love, which is, of course, all you need.
Shalom!Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 03:15 AMGood point about getting there first
We all know about the DUP’s hypocrasy, but that is in no way a justification for the UUPs latest actions
They have vindicated every nationalist critic who ever claimed that the UUPs “no guns no governmenrt” was a clever reworking of no fenian about the place.
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 09:50 AMCarsons Cat
Whole bucketloads of information exists on DUP members and Loyalist paramilitary groups, those silly pictures of red berets and the third force are the tip of the iceberg, they can only be used becasue they are in the public domain already. The problem would be getting people to say/print the real juicy stuff. But I have no doubt that it will come out if the DUP keep pushing.
There are plenty of people who are holding the DUP by the balls whether the DUP know it yet or not.
Its not that Cunningham house couldnt find anything on the DUP, its more likely not to be them who hold the information, its that the stuff is just to big to bring out of the cupboard without a legal shield or loophole.
I would like to be clear that I dont hold these stories, I just know they exist.
I
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 02:01 PMI have seen different parts of the Stevens reports which makes very clear that the guns used in Sean Graham book makers attack were also used by different Loyalist groupings.
These guns were brought in by Ulster Resistance, so for Gregory Campbell to claim on H&M;that Ulster Resistance never killed anyone is utter bullshit.
They brought in the Guns and acted as quater masters for the Loyalist groupings.
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 02:14 PM“His claims on Monday, that he felt he had a duty to reach out to Loyalists was, in fact, hypocritical crap” ‘GoodByeReg’
It was the cornerstone of his speech when he was elected to the leadership and was widely reported at the time
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 02:35 PMTiny
Cutting and pasting Party briefings is somewhat poor form.
“DUP sit on the Police Board with the PUP’s Dawn Purvis.”
They sit in Belfast City Council, NI Assembly etc with PUP representatives and all other parties in Northern Ireland. So what?
“DUP votes elected Hugh Smyth as Lord Mayor in 1997”
If you check you will find that 1997 saw the first NATIONALIST Lord Mayor of Belfast, Alban Maginnis.
“DUP had no problem with Tommy Kirkham supporting its group on Newtownabbey Council”
The Council website shows Mr Kirkham sitting as an independent.
http://www.newtownabbey.gov.uk/council/councillor/councillor1.asp
http://www.newtownabbey.gov.uk/council/councillor/ward.asp“DUP was involved in Ulster Resistance”
Yes they were and then they ended the relationship long ago.
“DUP was involved in the Third Force”
Yes they were. However, it was never defined or proscribed as a terrorist organisation nor was it ever implicated in any act of terrorism or crime. The Third Force no longer exists. The UVF does.
“DUP’s Willie McCrea spoke on a platform with Billy Wright, then head of the LVF”
Yes he did and he shouldn’t have done it just like the UUP shoudn’t have done what they did.
“EX UDA man Gary Blair, who was convicted of aiding and abetting murder, is a DUP party officer in Ballymoney.”
What part of EX do you not understand?
“There is even a photograph of Jeffrey Donaldson’s onetime employer lord Molyneaux complete with Orange regalia resplendent with war medals inspecting ranks of balaclava wearing loyalists”
Which he did when an Ulster Unionist and remains so. So how exactly does that highlight DUP hypocrisy?
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 03:26 PMfair_deal
“What part of EX do you not understand”
The crux of the matter is how much ex - which is my problem with Ervine
In my opinion yes we can all move on, we can even work with these people as political oponents, if they have unfortunately been given a political mandate, however you do not accept them into your midst unless they can answer the simple question
“Do you believe it was right to take up arms in the first place ?”
I cannot speak for Mr Blair but I know Ervine has said he makes no excuses for his past and although he may not be proud of many things he still believed he was ‘defending the loyalist community etc etc.
ie he is not fit to be in a political party that believes in democracy and the rule of law.
ie there was never a justification for either loyalist or republican violence - if loyalists wanted to serve the union militarily they could have joined the securuty forces. If republicans wanted to change the Union they could use constitutional nationalism - ie what they are doing now.
Once you accept their argument that they did nothing wrong then you have crossed the line.
The Belfast Agreement was never about constitutional parties considering as acceptable the murders of the previous thirty years.
In terms of your response above the issue would be has Mr Blair accepted this ?
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 06:40 PMJEB
“In terms of your response above the issue would be has Mr Blair accepted this ?”
I am in the same position as you “I cannot speak for Mr Blair”.
If it is any help when the issue of his election as an officer came up Jim Wells (who conducted the elctions) said:
“We do not accept membership of anyone who is currently involved in paramilitary activity.”
“My understanding is that Mr Blair has no involvement in paramilitarism and has turned away from all forms of illegal activity.”Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 07:02 PMtiny--your post of 2.35. Empey claimed on Monday that the Ervine pact was part of the reaching out to loyalism which he had committed himself to.
The problem is, why did he approach at least 3 other MLAs before he got to Ervine? Why didn’t he just go to Ervine first?
Five UUP MLAs (who will be listed in Monday or Tuesdays papers) are now claiming that they weren’t actually told that the DUP and Alliance had been approached. And nor were they told on the Monday morning that Standing Orders had been changed and that there was therefore no need for Ervine to join them that day.
This has all been very shoddy. MP wasn’t informed. Party Officers weren’t informed.
And maybe you couold explain why not one MLA--other than the Major and Empey himself---have been willing to say anything in public.
Do they actually supply laughing gas and happy pills in that bunker you lot inhabit!?
GBR
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 07:16 PMUnionism is better of today with the DUP at the helm than it was under the UUP’s reign of terror.
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 07:19 PMfair_deal
“currently” and “turned away” isnt strong enough for me.
It has to be a repudiation of the past - I always thought this was what the DUP demanded of SF let alone a party member ?
Every party member to the UUP has to be ratified by an Association Management Committee.
I have no doubt that any applicant for membership who said he was no longer a member of the UVF and was no longer involved in their activities but who wouldnt condemn the past murders of the UVF would be denied membership.
Those standards have been compromised by an alliance with David Ervine.
I am surprised Jim Wells statement that you have quoted is not so unambiguous - however we never got an explanation of McCrea’s platform sharing with Billy Wright either.
Considering the current flak the UUP are taking over Ervine I think the DUP should be clarifying the views of their Ballymoney Party Officer on his past activities in the UDA
Posted by on May 20, 2006 @ 09:42 PMJEB
My understanding is that the difference between Blair and Ervine is that Blair as member of the DUP would state that his previous activities were “wrong”, Ervine, as you pointed out will state that he was “defending the community” etc.There has to be a clear statement that there can be no excuse for terrorism That’s where the water gets muddy with Ervine - he will not state wholly that loyalist terrorism was wrong, end of story.
Tony
You might ‘know’ all sorts of stuff told to you by whatever conspiracy theorist spoke to you last. However, even if all this mythical explosive stuff exists the problem of the press refusing to carry it so far is unlikely to diminish.If we’re going to go down the route of claiming to know all sorts of things told to us by some bloke down the pub but not actually having much evidence to back it up then I fear this will not be a very enlightening debate.
Posted by on May 22, 2006 @ 10:19 AMI find it frustrating that the UUP and the DUP continue to attempt to denigrate the other. The parties and individual members have both been involved in activities both present and past that they should not be proud of.
The ambivalence of both at times to loyalist criminality and terrorism has not been and remains unacceptable. In fact on some occasions when their words are carefully analysed sectarianism and racism could also be included in the criminality.
There is no place for either in democratic politics. It is therefore not possible for so called democratic parties to form alliances with unreformed criminals and terrorists. They may speak to them to attempt to persuade them of the error of their ways but that is all.
When the main parties refuse to give a lead to the people of Northern Ireland with unequivocal actions and words that leave no doubt as to where they stand on criminality and terrorism, then at some level criminality and terrorism can become quasi acceptable to sections of the population.
This was the error that Tony Blair made in his operation of the Good Friday agreement when an acceptable level of criminality and terrorism was thought to be conducive to its success. We all know what that has brought to this country, mass criminality on a scale never before seen with £100’s of millions being siphoned off from banks, businesses and the government.
Is anyone among the larger parties prepared to take a lead and actually say that, sectarianism, racism, criminality and terrorism in which ever form they manifest themselves are totally unacceptable and then act in a way that is completely unambigious to prove they mean what they say.
Posted by on May 22, 2006 @ 12:01 PMthere should be no ‘not’ in the first line of the second paragraph.
Posted by on May 22, 2006 @ 12:08 PMlots of pertinent points here.
I would say that if only all Unionists had the moral fibre of Bob McCartney, we would have none of this nonsense.
The uup is finished, and have played right into the dup’s hands.
The issue of past terrorists is one which will surely inevitably come up more and more, and one which will pose problems for all parties.
If we are to move on and be inclusive, and bring in the former terrorists into politics, then how do we include them in party structures?
The uup look to be a complete and utter mess...someone turn out the light on the way out…
Posted by on May 22, 2006 @ 12:37 PM
