Sunday, July 01, 2007
US Orange Order Documentary
A Documentary shot in Northern Ireland by a U.S. film crew following Maghera Sons Of William LOL 209, Northern Ireland & Sons Of William LOL 1003, Birmingham, Alabama, USA.
I believe this was aired on PBS in the USA. The Alabama based Orange lodge comprises Anglican / Episcopal Bishop, Rev Paul Zahl and other ministers. They have been regular visitors to the South Londonderry Twelfth in recent years. The 32 minute documentary is viewable in 5 parts here
Kilsally @ 02:47 PM
my oh my
what an insightful outburst of MOPEryAnd over what?
A harmless little video showing ..er..normal people doing what floats their boat.
Yes, none of these champions of free speech have been able to find anything outrageous or hateful in the documentary, so it’s open up the floodgates of bile and away we go.
So it’s onesided- it’s their perception-stupid.
But then the faceless residents’ group have only been able to print leaflets which have been clearly demonstrated to be a lie- falsely claiming the band carried paramilitary flags. I wonder if the MP for the area will be keen for a repeat performance this year?Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 11:19 AMOf course I’ve seen the newsreels Prince Eoghan, who hasn’t? Such stuff is shameful but it’s noticeable that today the places that have the race relations problems are not now the southern United States but rather in the northern states, the South has actually adapted fairly comfortably to civil rights.
The reason for this is that civil rights would have happened anyway but what caused the huge bitterness at the time was the feeling that the federal government was imposing something (I fully accept that the Federal government was absolutely correct to enforce the ending of segregation). In the same way that the Civil War was not “about” slavery but would have occurred anyway it’s just that slavery was the most potent issue (the American war of Independence was also not about tea taxation in Boston but much larger issues). So it is that men who have a deep suspicion of central government and elite ruling classes, usually for very good reasons, are very quick to fight back even if their chosen battle ground is politically deeply unpleasant.
I am glad however that you see my wider point that deriding and sneering at rednecks or hillbillies is jolly good fun among us fair minded liberals, but these men for all their faults were the sort of people that when liberty needed defending were the first to pick up a gun and funnily enough still are. Like you say you take their bigotry and orneriness but you also have to take their broad political viewpoints, freedom fighters aren’t always pretty as our own history proves (and just as their cousins the Boers were antisemitic racists they were perfectly justified in fighting the British) but the end result in the United States has to my mind turned out very well for all its faults.
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 11:21 AM‘’my oh my
what an insightful outburst of MOPEry etc… ‘’Not very Christian remarks now are they Darth!
Words of a judgemental haughty proud man? Christ Jesus your Lord God and Saviour will be very disappointed with you.Regarding the video and the birth of the USA, the founding fathers of the States held somewhat atheistic beliefs to match their republicanism, ie Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine etc..
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 11:34 AMSuch begrudgery and there’s still 10 days to go ;)
If mdern Ireland can acknowledge brave men like William Melville (cue whine from petty shinner )surely that can give some leeway to the brethren that supposedly feature on the national flag? Maybe you should ocnsider changing it to Green, black and Orange?
{"Here is an Irish Catholic, who was proud of his Irish identity, defending Britain from terrorist threats that included Irish terrorism,” said Helen O’Carroll, the museum curator.
“As a Kerryman born and bred, Melville is part of our story and to fit him in we must acknowledge that Irish identity encompassed a broader spectrum in the past as indeed we are beginning to recognise that it does in the present.”
Robert Beasley, a local Sinn Fein councillor, was less enthusiastic, however.
“I don’t think local people would want to commemorate anything to do with the British Secret Service, whether it is in the past or today. I don’t see any reason to have him honoured,” Cllr Beasley said.}
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 11:40 AM“The organisation you are part of is fundamentally anti-Catholic.” - Question, are the AOH, Opus Dei, Knights of Columbus and indeed the Roman Catholic Church anti-Protestant when they say that Protestant churches are not true Churches and that there is only “one, true church”? It`s theology man, if you cannot separate theology or sin from the individual then you cannot practise “love thy neighbour” in regards to people of other faiths or indeed sexualities as in the homosexuality topic regarding Christianity. The present Pope’s publicly stated view of homosexuality is that it is “intrinsically immoral†and “objectively disorderedâ€. There is not one thing in the Orange Order that promotes hostility to individual Roman Catholics, indeed the opposite is true. The problem is not the Orange Order but rather the ethno-cultural divide and a case of people not listening to or acting according to what is preached or keeping to the rules.
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 11:54 AMthe RC church does not expel it’s members for attending Protestant services,being godparents to Protestants,marrying Protestants etc.It does not call on its members to ‘resist Protestant encroachment’ and to convert Protestants.”
Hmm wasn`t Tony blair told to stop going to Mass because he was not in full communion with the one, true Church? Didn`t the Irish establishment remain outside the Protestant church`s at funerals? What of the Ne Temere decree requiring children to be brought up roman Catholic in mixed marriages? What of the Pope. Pope Benedict XVI has spoken out on a few occasions about the threats to the Catholic faith posed by Protestant groups, including on the first day of the conclave that elected him pope.During a homily April 18 in which he denounced the “dictatorship of relativism” in the world, he cited the groups as well as Marxism, liberalism, atheism and agnosticism as threats to the fundamental truths of the church.
More recently, in a speech to priests in northern Italy, the pope lamented that Protestants were attracting Africans looking for religion beyond their traditional faiths and “present themselves as the best, the simplest and the most accommodating form of Christianity.”
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:08 PMHis remarks in Brazil raised a few eyebrows as well Alan !
{On a tour of Brazil earlier this month, the Pope said indigenous populations had welcomed European priests, who arrived with the conquistadores, and claimed they had been “silently longing” for Christianity. The proclamation of the gospels, he said, “did not at any point involve an alienation of the pre-Columbus cultures, nor was it the imposition of a foreign culture”.
Mr Chávez, who has a fraught relationship with his country’s Catholic hierarchy, went on television to protest at the Pope’s remarks, saying: “There was a real genocide here and, if we were to deny it, we would be denying our very selves.” The episode was reminiscent of the row ignited last year by Pope Benedict’s references to Islam. And it appeared to indicate a surprising degree of insensitivity or indifference on the part of the Pope and his advisers to the views of others.}
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,2087937,00.html
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:14 PM‘Maybe you should ocnsider changing it to Green, black and Orange?’
Na Cruimh, I suppose we should abolish the tricolour altogether. Dunno why we have an emblem that represents unity when one section of the people’s allegiance lie somewhere else. Probably should get rid of that orange bit. Green and gold would suffice. Green for the land, the gold for the culture. The IRA using the tricolour was a massive and unforgivable contradiction.
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:17 PMGold being the papal colour ;)
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:21 PMThe Orange Order, The Ancient Order of Hibernians, Opus Dei, Knights of Columbanus, Nights Templar, The Priory of Zion, Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code....all one and the same. Why are people in this day and age so enthralled by fucking religion. FFS!.....it’s the 21st century. Please wake up!
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:26 PMNa Cruimh....Yellow is the Papal colour!
The colour of the streak up the man’s back… from wiping his own holy arse incorrectly.
http://www.anyflag.com/country/vatican.php
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:29 PMGréagóir O’ Fránclin, Grand Master of the Honorable Order of Nihilism ? ;)
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:30 PMThe flag of the Vatican City consists of two vertical bands of gold (hoist side) and white with the crossed keys of Saint Peter and the Papal Tiara centered in the white band.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Vatican_City
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:35 PMPotato, Tomato....Cruimh.
....Then we’ll concoct our own formula for a shade of Irish gold...(just like Dutch Gold in cans) Perhaps beat the shit outta some ancient gold torcs and attach them to the flag!
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:47 PMI don’t need no Torc Gréagóir - I’m operant without one LOL
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 12:59 PMDo ye reckon the OO lads may draw a historical link between the Celtic neckware of yore to theirs of today. ATQ Stewart may be on the case.
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 01:28 PMCeltic would be green and white surely ?
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 01:33 PMPrince Eoghan: “I’m not so sure that you are ignoring it, more like making a case of saying we should take the good with the bad. For the record have you ever seen the newsreel footage of when civil rights protesters were going through neighbourhoods in the south of the US? The hatred coming from the ordinary folk was a sight to behold, the kind of hatred that I have witnessed from time to time, be it from personal experience or Holy Cross for example.”
Naive, PE, seeing as only the worst of the worst made the newsreel—a non-contentious, non-violent parade is simply not news. You take the very worst of the data points and, because you saw them “in the news,” assume they were the norm.
Kind of a blind-spot, that.
Now, none of this is to say what happened was either just or fair, or even that changes were unnecessary. Ironically, there were no shortage of blacks who want many of the same things those Southerners wanted, including seperatist ambitions in some cases. Many things are more complicated than the newsreels would suggest.
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 01:42 PMHa ha ....good one Cruimh!
Na, fuck it ....scratch all the suggestions. We’ll just go with a white platic bag, in honour of consumerism, the environment and the €20 cent levy we have in the ROI. Huzzah!
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 01:46 PM“Not very Christian remarks now are they Darth!
Words of a judgemental haughty proud man? Christ Jesus your Lord God and Saviour will be very disappointed with you.”I imagine he will, though not for exposing cant and humbug from people who clearly put the whining on autopilot while they went off for a nice cup of tea.
Imagine what they could have posted if they had actually found something objectionable in the film! Instead they’re reduced to redneck stereotyping.
Perhaps the pre-Christian activities of the ancestors of our Togolese Brethren should be trawled up- for all I know they were notorious cannibals, and thus by extension we secretly want to eat Catholic babies
“Regarding the video and the birth of the USA, the founding fathers of the States held somewhat atheistic beliefs to match their republicanism, ie Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine etc..”
Well many of them were generally deist,including Washington and Franklin, but naturally sceptical of state organised religion after their experience of Anglicanism. And they were certainly motivated by the ideals of the Glorious revolution. I suggest a thorough read of Michael Barone’s excellent tome “Our First Revolution”, linking 1690 with 1776 before dismissing the thesis out of hand…
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 01:52 PMHarry
I concede that hill billies are resposible for the advancement of modern liberties(please be warned sarcasm filter will be activated)As for the Chinese they were imported into america like cattle to be used and discarded. They were never to be allowed to become citizens and they were to be repatriated to China when the railroads were built and the only reason they werent is because the rail roads convinced the government that it would be too expensive to do so. For this benevolence they were murdered by corporations and individuals with impunity and few if any people were prosecuted for these murders.
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 02:23 PMVery true Darth,
But would you not take it a step further and be sceptical about your own religious convictions.‘I am the light of the world’, so someone said but as Franklin said ‘A lighthouse can be more useful than a church’
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 02:25 PMWhat was that song by that Manchester group ‘The Fall’ hailing the Glorious Revolution....Ah yes, Curious Orange, I remember it now.
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 02:43 PMHi All,
It never ceases to amaze me the vitriol of some nationalist posters against Orangemen. You want to unite with these people remember. Yet you completely despise them and constantly tell them so. It’s like wanting to marry the ugliest pig in the village and you woo her by calling her an ugly bitch. No slight on Maghera there btw ;)
If you really want to unite with us why not compliment us the odd time or of course you could just pligh us full of drink…
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 03:33 PMCongal C,
“It’s like wanting to marry the ugliest pig in the village and you woo her by calling her an ugly bitch.”
I don’t know how you do things down on your farm, but here we make a clear segregation between the hogs and the canines. Call us old-fashioned, but we like to adhere to the proscriptions of our prophet.
Works well, too. We’ve had to incinerate far fewer cross-species monsters than neighbouring farms, and the government inspectors told us we got extra subsidy coming.
Posted by on Jul 02, 2007 @ 04:19 PM
