Thursday, November 22, 2007
Unloved unionists fear new border with Great Britain…
NOTHING could demonstrate to unionists how little London loves them than this little exchange in the Lords last night involving David Trimble and Lord West (who seemed unaware - despite having served here - that Northern Ireland is part of the UK). There seems to be considerable unionist unease about the eborders scheme, which, from a unionist perspective, will result in an electronic security ring being thrown around Great Britain, while NI is left to take its chances with the Republic. This, the argument goes, will result in people from Northern Ireland being treated like foreigners when travelling to any other part of the United Kingdom. The problem for Westminster is Ireland’s porous border, about which, apparently, nothing can be done - GB fears that illegals enter the Irish Republic easily, cross the border into Northern Ireland without hindrance, which they then use as a jumping point into Great Britain. I’ve copied the exchange below the fold.
Northern Ireland: Electronic Border
3.23 pm
Lord Trimble asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What discussions have taken place with the Northern Ireland Executive and the Government of the Republic of Ireland on the impact of the electronic border on the British Isles common travel area.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, we continue to work closely with both the Northern Ireland Executive and the Government of the Republic of Ireland on operational policy and legislative issues, including the implementation of the e-borders programme, which is a key part of the Government’s plans for securing our borders.
My Lords, I wonder if the Irish Government have pointed out in their discussions with Her Majesty’s Government that British citizens make up the largest group of foreign nationals in the Irish Republic and that they, together with the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Irish passport holders domiciled in Great Britain, have been accustomed to travelling back and forth between the two states without any formalities ever since the creation of a separatist Irish state. With the e-borders, there will of course be considerable inconvenience to them. Would it not be much better to take the existing informal common travel area and put it on a formal basis analogous to the Schengen agreement that applies elsewhere in Europe? This would solve the problems that arise in practice and relieve the difficulties experienced by the Home Office, which seems to be intellectually challenged by the idea of a land frontier.
My Lords, as was said before, there is a lot of dialogue between ourselves, the Border and Immigration Agency, the UK police, the Garda National Immigration Bureau and the Northern Ireland Executive on these various issues. We carry out a lot of joint operations, and we all believe that the way we are moving forward with two chunks of work—one relates to the Police and Justice Act 2006 and the other to e-borders—are good ways of covering the problems. We know both anecdotally and from taking samples that there are people who either come through the Republic of Ireland, move into Northern Ireland and then come across to the United Kingdom or vice versa. The sample evidence we have suggests that it is a considerable problem, and this way forward will resolve those issues.
Lord Rogan: My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that the same quality of protection against external terrorism will be afforded to citizens of the United Kingdom residing in Northern Ireland as to our fellow citizens who reside in the mainland?
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the quick answer is yes. We are making sure that is exactly what happens.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I return to basic Northern Ireland politics after a very statesmanlike Question from my noble friend Lord Trimble. Do Her Majesty’s Government really understand Ireland and Northern Ireland? I think not. They are expelling the people of Northern Ireland—I am one of them; I live there— geographically from the United Kingdom. They are putting an electronic boundary around England, Scotland and Wales, excluding Northern Ireland and packaging it in with the Republic of
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Ireland. Do Her Majesty’s Government really think that that will help political friendship and political progress between these islands given their delicate state? I would love to answer the question. I hope the Minister’s answer is the same as mine.
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I do not agree. The Government do understand Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic and the status of the people there. There is no doubt whatever that, in the interests of the Republic of Ireland, the people in Northern Ireland and the people of the United Kingdom in general, it makes sense to move down this route. On the e-borders area, for example, we have carried out a trial run called Project Semaphore, and in that very small pilot project 1,300 arrests were made for crimes including murder, rape, assault and so on. On a counterterrorist basis, it is better for the safety of all our people. I cannot accept what has just been said about our lack of understanding. There is absolutely no intention, no desire and no wish; it would be contrary to everything we believe in.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, will the Minister reply specifically to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble? Would it not be more optimal to maintain the common travel area rather than hive off Great Britain from our neighbours in both Northern Ireland and the Republic? This is a complex issue. Given the mix of population between the islands, it is absurd to go down the route that the Government appear to be going down.
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, we are maintaining the common travel area, which is recognised by the EU. We are applying a sensible way forward to identify the loophole that existed of people moving in through the Republic of Ireland, into Northern Ireland and then travelling across to the United Kingdom. We know, as I said, from anecdotal and sample evidence that that is a considerable number of people. Similarly, the Crown dependency routes are being maintained. So the common travel area is staying as it is.
Lord Elton: My Lords, do the Government not recognise the enormous symbolism of what they are doing with the map? What will be the security losses of including the province of Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom instead of leaving it out?
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, there has been mention already of the common land border in Ireland. Those of us who have patrolled and walked along it know how permeable it is. That is part of the issue in terms of the ability of people arriving in the Republic of Ireland to get into Northern Ireland. Nothing that is being done makes any declaration about the status of Northern Ireland. It is for the safety of all the people of these islands that we are doing these things. There is a great deal of discussion going on. I think it is a sensible way forward.
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Lord Trimble: My Lords, does the Minister not realise that, when he spoke a moment ago of travelling from Northern Ireland to the United Kingdom, he demonstrated clearly his lack of understanding of the basic concept?
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, it was a slip. I certainly understand it. As I said, I have served in Northern Ireland. It was rather like the slip that people make when they forget that the United Kingdom is in Europe. It is a slip that is made sometimes.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, will the Minister let me have details of how the projected security measures across the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic will be similar or different to the projected border controls within and without the European Community?
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, perhaps I may come back to the noble Lord in writing on those details.
Belfast Gonzo @ 11:44 AM
I can understand why a Unionist would be upset.
Don’t see that it would cause me any problems as an Irish citizen though. I just show my passport the same as I do everywhere else in the world. It usually dosen’t take very long. Actually I think I prefer it.
If Irish borders are as porous as GB seems to think though we really need to do something about it.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 02:13 PMIt makes perfect sense to deal with this issue on an island basis - it’s a lot easier and more effective.
Showing one’s passport isn’t that big a deal, anybody travelling does it all the time now anyway.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 02:27 PMwhat they need is a coordinated policy of immigration control, rather than face the silly contortions of having UK citizens show their passports in order to move around the UK and the selfish and disloyal idea of leaving Northern Ireland to fend for itself, as an outpost harbour for whatever the feck the Government think they are protecting GB from.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 02:27 PMIt is an ‘outpost harbour’, always was, always will be.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 02:34 PMMost people on the mainland don’t seem to realise that NI is part of the UK, this is very evident when talking to them.
Unionist politicians have done a bad job with regards to this and while it is the general consensus amongst Unionist that an independent NI is the preferred option it is not viable. At least the link with mainland GB is better than a UI.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 02:55 PM“At least the link with mainland GB is better than a UI.” - Economically ?
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:04 PM“it is the general consensus amongst Unionist that an independent NI is the preferred option “
Another contender for Internal Contradiction Howler of the Year?
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:04 PMI wonder
I don’t think so the main aim of Unionism is to prevent a UI as its becoming clear the mainland don’t want NI. In an ideal world an independent NI would be the option however the status quo is the best Unionism can hope for.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:12 PMLeaving the northeast and going to Britain and then being addressed as a Paddy by a Brit must be a real kick in the teeth for a lapdog unionist.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:14 PMJo, it shows that ‘Unionists’ of Outsider’s mindset aren’t loyal to Britain - they just don’t want to be Irish.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:14 PMIncidently, Outsider: you’re closer to PSF re independence than you realise. If it was viable, PSF would support it in preference to a UI wherein their power would vanish. Like you, they put their own interests first. ;)
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:17 PM” the main aim of Unionism is to prevent a UI “
Bloody Hell, and there was me thinking it was to maintain the Union.
Wherever did I get such a notion?
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:17 PMHow can you call yourself a Unionist if your main aim is independence? Maybe you can call Northern Ireland the Free State at some point in the future!!
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:17 PMJo, it shows that ‘Unionists’ of Outsider’s mindset aren’t loyal to Britain - they just don’t want to be Irish.
Dubliner
I am Irish and British however its difficult to remain loyal to the mainland when it really does not want NI and most of its population don’t even realise NI is part of the UK.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:20 PMBloody Hell, and there was me thinking it was to maintain the Union.
Wherever did I get such a notion?
I Wonder
You obviously don’t come into contact with mainstream Unionism too often, Slugger is not the place to get the views of mainstream Unionism either.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:23 PMGB fears that illegals enter the Irish Republic easily, cross the border into Northern Ireland without hindrance, which they then use as a jumping point into Great Britain.
Is there any justification for believing that illegals, with evil intent or otherwise, find it easier to enter the mainland UK via the Republic rather than doing so directly through Birmingham or wherever?
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:31 PMGB fears that illegals enter the Irish Republic easily, cross the border into Northern Ireland without hindrance, which they then use as a jumping point into Great Britain.
Wheres the protection for NI then, this is another example of NI being an unwanted commodity by the mainland.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:33 PMBy Mainland you mean Brussells and Europe etc right?
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:40 PMBy Mainland you mean Brussells and Europe etc right?
D’oul 32
Here is a cryptic clue simply take the ‘l 32’ from your user name and you will find my response to your question.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:45 PM“I don’t think so the main aim of Unionism is to prevent a UI as its becoming clear the mainland don’t want NI. In an ideal world an independent NI would be the option however the status quo is the best Unionism can hope for.”
No outsider. The main aim of unionism is to preserve the Union. If you do not want to preserve the Union then you are not a unionist.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:46 PMThe problem for Westminster is Ireland’s porous border, about which, apparently, nothing can be done - GB fears that illegals enter the Irish Republic easily, cross the border into Northern Ireland without hindrance, which they then use as a jumping point into Great Britain.
Yeah, ‘cuz immigrants magically teleport from Eastern Europe, North Africa and Asia directly into Ireland without setting foot in any of the thousands of miles of intervening sovereign nations.
Obviously it must be the fault of the Irish.
*rolls eyes*
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:46 PMUm, there’s not *one* piece of evidence that passports are going to be required for UK nationals going Great Britain from Northern Ireland, or vice versa. There’s plenty of evidence that the Dublin government is being bounced by Whitehall into signing up for an ‘e-border’ scheme spanning the entire British Isles.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:48 PMNo outsider. The main aim of unionism is to preserve the Union. If you do not want to preserve the Union then you are not a unionist.
Chekov
Obviously Unionists are prepared to do that, our problem is with the lack of respect and equality being afforded to us by mainland UK.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:48 PMIt looks like this just the outworking of preparations towards a unified island approach.
Unionists should be happy to be asked to produce ID to clarify the britishness that they hold so dear.
I would just produce my Irish pass port as I do when visiting any other foriegn country.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:53 PMWhen will ye people ever cop on to the fact that NI is not part of the British Isles. If you want to class Ireland with the British Isles then you need to call them their correct name. The European Western isles or the North Atlantic Archipeligo. Constantly quoting incorrectly won’t make it correct.
Posted by on Nov 22, 2007 @ 03:59 PM
