Friday, May 23, 2008
“undermining old certainties..”
Thanks to PJM in the comments zone at this previous, related, post. Poet Michael Longley’s filmed contribution to the Digging Deeper project discussing his sense of Irishness and Britishness and neither in a region of the archipelago where identity has been reduced to a “pathological political form”. Also related thoughts on identity from Hugo MacNeill.. and John Hewitt.. and John Banville on his own personal culture.
Pete Baker @ 02:10 PM
Nothing that either Micheal Longley or Hugo MacNeil says should be a threat to anybody or for that matter a surprise . However both and John Banville come from what can be called the better heeled and better educated element in Ireland / North and South .
For the less well off in the Shankill and West Belfast and other parts of Northern Ireland the somewhat esoteric and philosophical luxury of indulging in multiple identities is a luxury they can’t afford and even if they could their neighbours might not be enamoured of their ‘new found’ tolerance .
Susan McKay in the other clip was I thought much closer to the ‘on the ground’ feelings of the majority of people in NI (both communities) than any of the above .
Whats at stake is not Britishness or Irishness or Europeaness -for each one of us can have the multiple ‘identities’ that all of the above can provide .
Getting the politics to work for the good of all is ultimately much more important than these ‘navel gazing exercises’
Anyway with apologies to Mr Longley its POETS day (Push Off Early Tomorrow’s Saturday)
Posted by on May 23, 2008 @ 04:54 PMThere is much wisdom from Michael Longley in this excellent piece. I especially like his position on the “confluence of cultures” and the greater benefit derived from drawing from all of them rather than just one parochial inheritance.
Greenflag
The navel gazing needs to be done across the board before the politics can change. Unless the people change the politics will not change and will remain deadlocked in the present two sectarian camps. Change filters down from the people to the politics, not the reverse in most cases.
Posted by on May 23, 2008 @ 06:42 PMWhat, no shout out to Louis MacNiece, author of the last poem I shared with the man who taught me virtually all the first poems I ever heard, my Catholic, republican grandfather? you’re slipping, pete. You are slipping. ;o)
Moving interview. It’s a nonsense to say that a sense of multiple identities is not a factor to the lesser-heeled, although it may be articulated less. How many Northern Catholics have moved or visited the South, only to find themselves alienated and completely taken aback by the level of corruption and/or cute hoorism in local or national politics? How many proud Ulster Protestants have emigrated to London or Liverpool and found that to the English they were seen, and not so very long ago late in the evening addressed, as “paddies” every bit as much as though they hailed from West Belfast, or West Cork for that matter?
Nor have I ever found that poetry matters less to those most affected by the Troubles. Quite the opposite.
Posted by on May 23, 2008 @ 07:19 PMAs there are those who rarely click on the links and only read the comments—ah, g’wan, g’wan, you say —i had the impulse to reproduce the poem Longley reads at the end of the interview, “Ceasefire” here. hard as it is to believe, some readers here were only teens or younger when it was first published, and might enjoy encountering it again. To some Achilles represents the paramilitaries, to others, the British Empire, and to others, both, or none of the above, but all can feel for Priam’s tears, and his survival.
Ceasefire
1
Put in mind of his own father and moved to tears
Achilles took him by the hand and pushed the old king
Gently away, but Priam curled up at his feet and
Wept with him until their sadness filled the building.2
Taking Hector’s corpse into his own hands Achilles
Made sure it was washed and, for the old king’s sake,
Laid out in uniform, ready for Priam to carry
Wrapped like a present home to Troy at daybreak.3
When they had eaten together, it pleased them both
To stare at each other’s beauty as lovers might,
Achilles built like a god, Priam good-looking still
And full of conversation, who earlier had sighed:4
‘I get down on my knees and do what must be done
And kiss Achilles’ hand, the killer of my son.’To some, Achilles would be PIRA, to others the British Empire itself, but
Michael Longley said:
Posted by on May 23, 2008 @ 07:27 PMsorry for the poor, rushed editing of my own fragmented thoughts. Let me post the poem on its own:
Ceasefire, by Michael Longley
1
Put in mind of his own father and moved to tears
Achilles took him by the hand and pushed the old king
Gently away, but Priam curled up at his feet and
Wept with him until their sadness filled the building.2
Taking Hector’s corpse into his own hands Achilles
Made sure it was washed and, for the old king’s sake,
Laid out in uniform, ready for Priam to carry
Wrapped like a present home to Troy at daybreak.3
When they had eaten together, it pleased them both
To stare at each other’s beauty as lovers might,
Achilles built like a god, Priam good-looking still
And full of conversation, who earlier had sighed:4
‘I get down on my knees and do what must be done
And kiss Achilles’ hand, the killer of my son.’Posted by on May 23, 2008 @ 07:30 PMsusan
“What, no shout out to Louis MacNiece..”
It’s either too many links, or too few..
My bad ;o)
Posted by on May 23, 2008 @ 07:43 PMNew Yorker,
‘There is much wisdom from Michael Longley in this excellent piece.’
There is -most of it plain common sense .
‘I especially like his position on the “confluence of cultures” and the greater benefit derived from drawing from all of them rather than just one parochial inheritance.’
Any European artist , composer , painter etc German , French , Italian.Spaniard , Dutch etc would understand the ‘confluence of cultures’ without for a moment compromising their individual nationality or their common european cultural backgrounds. It’s the relative cultural isolation of Northern Ireland from the european mainstream which makes this ‘confluence of cultures’ seem like a new ‘discovery’
‘The navel gazing needs to be done across the board before the politics can change.’
There’s been too much navel gazing in NI for the past 40 years .
‘Unless the people change the politics will not change and will remain deadlocked in the present two sectarian camps.’
The present political ‘solution’ has been designed so as to maintain the ‘integrity’ of the present two sectarian camps . In fact it’s been cemented into place under the terms of the GFA .
susan ,
‘How many Northern Catholics have moved or visited the South, only to find themselves alienated and completely taken aback by the level of corruption and/or cute hoorism in local or national politics? ‘
True it must come as a shock that southerners don’t kill each other by the thousands because of one’s politics, religion or ethnicity . As we all know Northern Ireland is renowned the world over for it’s principled incorruptible politicians ? So many principles have both sets of politicians had that it took them 40 years to compromise them a fraction in order to sit in the same room without killing each other :(
“ How many proud Ulster Protestants have emigrated to London or Liverpool and found that to the English they were seen, and not so very long ago late in the evening addressed, as “paddies” every bit as much as though they hailed from West Belfast, or West Cork for that matter? ‘
Can’t have very much pride or backbone then can they ?. Anybody who addresses me by anything other than my proper name would find himself apologising and learning it very quickly or would find himself kissing the pavement with a bloody nose or a sore jaw.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 12:03 AMI liked that “Creative Commotion” Very cool phrase.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 04:53 AMGreenflag
There has not been sufficient navel gazing. That is why the present jury-rigged ‘solution’ will fail. Successful societies are not divided into sectarian camps. As our Mayor Bloomberg said - the walls are still there and proof of the problem that prevents bringing the economy up to speed.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 05:17 AMNew Yorker,
‘There has not been sufficient navel gazing’
I doubt if there is a society/political entity/ ethno-religious tribal groups/classes call it what you want -that has been subjected to as much sociological research -conflict /attitude studies anywhere in the world more so than Northern Ireland . Northern Ireland has provided almost two generations of material for budding PHD’s across every academic disciplne bar perhaps physics :(
‘That is why the present jury-rigged ‘solution’ will fail.’
The present ‘solution’ will fail not because of a lack of navel gazing but for two basic reasons,
a) the NI State in it’s present 6 county format can never become a ‘normal democracy’such as the Republic or the UK (excluding NI), France, Germany etc and
b) the local politicians will be unable to deliver the ‘economic ‘ goods longer term at least from the perspective of creating sufficient economic growth to keep the best and brightest of it’s young people in Northern Ireland and not lose them to either the UK or Republic or elsewhere.Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 08:48 AM‘True it must come as a shock that southerners don’t kill each other by the thousands because of one’s politics, religion or ethnicity . As we all know Northern Ireland is renowned the world over for it’s principled incorruptible politicians ? So many principles have both sets of politicians had that it took them 40 years to compromise them a fraction in order to sit in the same room without killing each other :("--greenflag
Greenflag; Would you care to put an estimate on the number of Northerners who have also never killed anyone because of their politics, their religion, or their ethnicity, who ALSO find some of the cute hoorism in local politics in the South disillusioning when they encounter it in person? Or are you claiming you have to grow up in Dublin, Cork, or Galway to have a right to be taken aback by—just off the top of my head—the nursing homes scandal, the long waiting lists of patients who must wait to long for treatment due to the two-tiered health system, or some of the side deals and corrupt practices in planning and development?
My post was in no way a compare and contrast, merely on the topic of competitinig and multiple identities and pointing out that after putting the government and society of the Republic on a (comparative) pedestal, many Northerners encounter a fair bit of, shall we say, cognitive dissonance between their expectations and reality when they spend a lot of time there.
As for this: “Anybody who addresses me by anything other than my proper name would find himself apologising and learning it very quickly or would find himself kissing the pavement with a bloody nose or a sore jaw.’--Greenflag
Greenflag, I’m going to assume you were celebrating the arrival of the weekend, because I’ve read too many insightful, intelligent posts from you over a long period to think that in the cold clear light of day you wouldn’t see the irony of first trumpeting the non-violence of Southerners who ‘don’t kill each other by the thousands because of one’s politics, religion or ethnicity’ and then boasting of your ability to knock to the ground anyone who calls you a name you wouldn’t like.
Again, would you care to put an estimate on the number of Northerners from either community who have never killed anyone because of their politics, religion, or ethnicity, and also managaged routinely not to resort to street violence when called names far worse than “paddy”?
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 09:04 AM‘As our Mayor Bloomberg said - the walls are still there and proof of the problem that prevents bringing the economy up to speed.’
Bringing the NI economy up to speed has nothing to do with the walls . People in NI go about their normal lives everyday regardless of the walls . The NI economy is 70% dependent on the public sector and there is insufficient ‘entrepreneurial’ activity in the private sector because the latter is ‘drowned out ‘ by the former . Corporate taxation rates and political instability (longer term) are the main reasons for the lack of direct foreign and even domestic investment .
The best NI can hope for is for the present accomodation to last long enough so that a return to the previous era of conflict becomes for all not just unimaginable but inconceivable .
If poets and artists have a role to play in the education of the public mind in that regard then I’m all for their contribution - however the practical nuts and bolts of solidifying peace in NI will not come from navel gazing but from -good laws - economic growth - peace and stability and a sound constitution .
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 09:05 AMreturning to the topic of poetry and competiting identities, here’s an excerpt from Gearóid Mac Lochlainn;
‘Tonight, my friends, there will be no translations,
nothing translated, altered, diluted
with hub-bubbly English
that turns my ferment of poems
to lemonade.
no, tonight, there will be no translations.
...
Sometimes, you get tired talking
to lazy Irish ears. Tired
of self-satisfied monoglots who say‹
It sounds lovely. I wish I had the Irish.
Don’t you do translations?The irony that those stanzas are themselves in English is lost neither on the poet nor his audiences.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 09:17 AMSusan , as to your numbers
‘Would you care to put an estimate on the number of Northerners who have also never killed anyone because of their politics, their religion, or their ethnicity,’
98% (my estimate) . Conventional wisdom /perception inculcated by the mass media etc would be much lower (you don’t get a second chance to create a first impression) would probably rate 50% ? Thus the paucity of tourists - investment etc although happily now that is changing
‘find some of the cute hoorism in local politics in the South disillusioning when they encounter it in person?
98% (NI )
75% (ROI) mainly because we’re both used to it and find ways of circumventing it :( And most of know when to steer clear of it .‘many Northerners encounter a fair bit of, shall we say, cognitive dissonance between their expectations and reality when they spend a lot of time there.’
I’m not surprised . People from East Germany also suffered ‘cognitive’ dissonance when they had to adjust to the realities of a mainly non public sector economy when the German border was ‘opened’.
‘you wouldn’t see the irony ‘
No I would’nt :). There’s a major difference in practical outcomes between smacking somebody on the jaw for calling one a name one would rather not be called - and putting lead in a persons head because of their ethnicity,religion, nationality, class or skin colour . In the former a lesson in how to address people by their proper name may have been learnt, whereas in the latter case all potential for learning ceases on a permanent basis.
I assure you I do not as a rule go for the instant jaw fix method of conflict resolution - a request for an apology is always first addressed . The fist only follows if the request is not complied with -I also adhere to Queenberry’s rulesand ensure my victim gets proper medical attention afterwards :)
The above is not I assure you a regular weekend occurrence and so far in life I’ve only had to resort to this strategy twice.
‘would you care to put an estimate on the number of Northerners from both communities who managaged routinely not to resort to street violence when called names far worse than “paddy”? ‘
In NI it would have to be a majority . Call it a learned cross cultural ‘response ‘ . Name calling is part of cultural indoctrination in NI and reaches a crescendo usually in the summer months IIRC. But even the Northern Irish fail miserably when cross comparisoned with the superlative invective dished out by the Arabs to one another :)
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 09:59 AM‘The irony that those stanzas are themselves in English is lost neither on the poet nor his audiences.’
We had the same teacher for English and Irish and he was a particular fan of some English poet and during one class occassion waxed lyrical over one line /sentence from this poet -Coleridge or Tennyson or somebody . One pupil who was not in said teacher’s good books in the Irish class attempted to regain his standing by directly translating this wonderful line from the English into Irish as part of an Irish essay .
Our teacher though a Gaelic ‘nationalist ‘ of the ultra variety was so outraged at this sacrilige on his favoutite piece of english poetry the poetic that said pupil got a clout on the back of his head for his misdirected effort.
Poetry doesn’t translate. Neither sometimes does humour as poor Dustin has discovered recently .
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 10:18 AM2% of the population of NI is approximately 35,000 people.
If this group of individuals killed on average 1 person each, then that would imply approximately 35,000 deaths.
Clearly the population of the North are not quite so murderous as Greenflag thinks.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 12:17 PMthank you for crunching that number, runciter.
On a side note, something struck me during the morning’s rounds (God forbid I concentrate on what I’m actually doing, ever) about the people who’ve held the cross-border post of Professor of Poetry for Ireland.
John Montague was born in Brooklyn, and moved back to rural Tyrone as a child. Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill was born in England to Irish parents, grew up in Dingle in an English speaking household but writes only in Irish. Michael Longley was born in Belfast to English parents. The fourth poet to hold the chair I can’t recall off the top of my head, and I apologise sincerely for that, but clearly there is a connection between poetry and the push-pull of competing or contrasting cultures.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 12:57 PMrunciter,
‘If this group of individuals killed on average 1 person each, then that would imply approximately 35,000 deaths.’
Well it would if killings in NI were always one on one . They were’nt .In many cases death resulted from people being killed by several attackers or a mob . How many times have we read of an innocent catholic or protestant being set upon and kicked to death by a group of thugs .
Do you know the exact number ? Mine was an estimate . In any event the general ‘perception’ would be a lot higher than my estimate at least from te position of most people outside NI.
crunch again :)
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 01:14 PMWell it would if killings in NI were always one on one
That is not what ‘average’ means.
Do you know the exact number?
No, but given that approximtely 3,500 people were killed during the Troubles it seems unreasonable to assume that the number of indigenous killers is ten times that figure.
Mine was an estimate
Based on what?
In any event the general ‘perception’ would be a lot higher than my estimate at least from te position of most people outside NI.
Another estimate, I assume?
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 03:50 PMGreenflag
Good story about your former teacher.
I am not referring to collective navel gazing as some academics conduct it but individual self-reflection. When people reflect and come to the conclusion that they are part Irish, part British, part Northerner, part European - as Michael Longley does in the above - the individual sectarianism and hate recedes. That then seeps into the political sphere and positive change can start to take hold. I think that is the only way out of the ‘basket-case’ predicament. Good laws are only good when people adhere to them, otherwise they are just empty aspirations.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 05:03 PM“True it must come as a shock that southerners don’t kill each other by the thousands”
They were separate from this death?
G.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 05:45 PM“Again, would you care to put an estimate on the number of Northerners from either community who have never killed anyone because of their politics, religion, or ethnicity, and also managaged routinely not to resort to street violence when called names far worse than “paddy”? “
Susan
In Ballymurphy, Turf Lodge, when I was growing up there, the idea of people not being connected to the IRA was not an idea I understood.
I thought everybody was part of the experience. I didn’t think opting out was allowed. I also assumed that everywhere else was like that.
G.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 06:09 PMNew Yorker ,
I understand what you are saying and indeed individual self reflection is usually but not always a part of growing maturity . Most ordinary people in Northern Ireland from both sides of the divide are kinda busy paying their mortgages , rearing their children, and trying to hold on to their jobs and mind their own business. I think the ‘self reflection’ that you refer to probably comes second nature to intelligent people like Mr Longley and others of the artisitic /intellectual fraternity but for most of ordinary folk it’s a bit kinda high falutin.
I believe however that as people ‘mature’ they do take a broader and more tolerant view of differences between themselves and others . Sadly most of those who died/were killed /murdered/ in the troubles tended to be from the younger age cohort of the population which never knew maturity and exited this mortal coil long before they reached it .
I’m not denying poetry /art does not have a role in broadening people’s outlooks but we should not look to this source for solving what people elect politicians to do .
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 07:20 PMRunciter ,
I’ve revised my estimate in the light of your trenchant factual analysis .
Would you believe 0.8572349876% ?
I’m sure it’ll make the dead and their families feel better :(
‘In any event the general ‘perception’ would be a lot higher than my estimate at least from the position of most people outside NI.’
Not another estimate just practical life experience . Go anywhere in the world and mention Northern Ireland and you’ll find that the perception that people have of the place tends to be a good deal worse than that of the indigenes. Hopefully that will now change with NI being advertised as a tourist destination along with the Republic.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 07:27 PMI’ve revised my estimate in the light of your trenchant factual analysis
You’re welcome.
Posted by on May 24, 2008 @ 09:39 PM
