Tuesday, December 08, 2009
“typical of the slithery sleeveenism that still infects Irish politics.”
The report of Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin’s meeting with the Apostolic Nuncio to Ireland, Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza, ends on this note
Responding to Mr Martin’s expression of “deep disappointment” at the lack of a response by the pope to the Dublin diocesan report, Holy See sources said until the Holy See received a formal complaint from the Government via its diplomatic mission in Rome, a Vatican response would be “inappropriate”.
Meanwhile, in the Irish Times, Fintan O’Toole questions the validity of legislative echoes of a Byzantine Empire. From the Irish Times article
THE VATICAN, in its refusal to deal with the Murphy commission on child abuse in the Dublin diocese, made it clear that it wishes to be regarded, not as a church organisation, but as a foreign state. Which raises the rather stark question: why do we allow a foreign state to appoint the patrons of our primary schools? If some weird vestige of colonial times decreed that the British monarch would appoint the ultimate legal controllers of almost 3,200 primary schools in our so-called republic, we would be literally up in arms. Why should we tolerate the weird vestige of an equally colonial mentality that allows a monarch in Rome to do just that?
Fintan O’Toole notes
The current line from both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael is not to defend the retention of these powers by unelected and unaccountable people who may or may not recognise Irish law, but to insist that they are little used. This is typical of the slithery sleeveenism that still infects Irish politics. Anti-democratic powers are okay so long as they are not used.
There are just two possibilities here. Either the statutory powers of the bishops have fallen into disuse, in which case who can object to the clearing away of this offensive anachronism? Or they have not fallen into disuse, in which case they remain as an affront to a republican democracy.
Even if the bishops were not collectively and institutionally incapable of putting the welfare of children first, the idea that the primary school system of a 21st century democracy should be ultimately controlled by the appointees of a foreign dictatorship would be shameful.
We need to grow up as a society, and that means growing out of our dependence on a 19th century instrument of power and control. Every intelligent theologian knows that that institution (as opposed to the faith it has distorted and betrayed) is effectively dead. It is long since time that politicians who claim to be republicans stopped prostrating themselves before its corpse.
Pete Baker @ 11:32 AM
It also raises the question of why you allow that state to retain a diplomatic presence when its agents refused to cooperate with an investigation into paedophile activity by its representatives and a cover up by its senior clergy
Should the nuncio go?
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 12:53 PMIs the Pope still intending to visit Ireland north and/or south next year ?
It will be telling the reception he receives this time around
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 01:16 PMCannot see what the Murphy commission was playing at. This was a crass act to demean the Vatican which has backfired on them, it is very easy to use the proper channels and this would have garnered them the information they required.
As for the Pope’s possible visit. You can rest assured thta Catholics will be able to discern the differences between appointees of the Church and their acts and ommissions and the Church itself, for they are the Church.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 01:42 PMAnd the implications for schools governnance in Northern Ireland? As previously noted, Cardinal Brady has already shown his anxiety over the impact of the new Education and Skills Authority,now in the doldrums. Are northern
catholics likely to want to cling to nurse for fear of something worse in the uncertain political climate?It would be undemocratic- impossible - to deny them. There’s another problem with straight secularisation, as faith schools are recognised as specialist schools in GB.Straight abolition may be against human rights (though I’m not sure). Try this option from Bernard Cullan.
http://gtcni.openrepository.com/gtcni/bitstream/2428/7928/21/2020 Book - The Principle of Subsidiarity and the Governance of Schools - Bernard Cullen.pdf“My proposal is that the government should offer the adult citizens of that area
(and many others) a local plebiscite, asking them whether they wish to continue with the current
monopoly situation of school governance, or whether they would prefer to have local democratic
control over the management of their schools….Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 01:48 PM“the implications for schools governnance in Northern Ireland?”
Will they pass their Child Protection vetting?
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 02:05 PMColl: ‘This was a crass act to demean the Vatican’
It’s impossible to demean the vatican any more than they have already done themselves.
Given the gravity of the situation, the vatican should have been falling over themselves to co-operate fully with the Murphy commission and all others concerning past conduct regarding child abuse. Do they wish to be honest and open about crimes committed or do they wish to whistle in the wind and hope it will all go away?
By playing the frankly pathetic diplomatic card the vatican merely portrays itself as uncaring, unco-operative and quite incapable of any pretence of moral standing.The anti-church venom evident in Fintan O’Toole’s article would have been unthinkable a few years ago and represents an animosity which will not dissipate without strong and genuine action on the part of the vatican. The days when the population blindly accepted the words and deeds of church leaders are long gone—if they are to avoid becoming the corpse which O’Toole refers to, they need to be seen to be fully co-operative over the actions of THEIR representatives.
As for a future papal visit, I have no doubt that there will be cheering crowds north and south, but nothing on the scale seen in the 1970s and the whole thing greatly overshadowed by the elephant in the room.
In the current climate I believe benedict would need quite some neck to come here.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 02:24 PMI’m wondering how much more evidence will come to light in the furture regarding abuse in other countries. Unlike what has been suggested on this site by a few tooles, the abuse won’t have stopped at the border, it’s not likely to be limited to just here are parts of the USA. I’m guessing the silence by the Vatican is due to them having a look to see how widespread this problem is. Maybe they already know.
I never understood what the flying spagetti monster had to do with education anyway.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 02:39 PMWell said O’Toole :))
And now for the slogan
Irish Citizen Army update 2009 ;)‘We serve neither King nor Kaiser nor Pope’ !!
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 02:43 PMGerry Lvs Castro
The Vatican has not demeaned itself - the problem lies at the heart of Irish society. The vatican is quite right to insist that protocal is observed, in fact on matters of this gravity it is all the more important that this is the case, otherwise you create a “fog of war” which could be exploited by people trying to escape the rap. I would have thought anyone with an iota of sense would be able to appreciate that. The structures are there and should be used. The Enquiry has shown that it is not professional, I wonder who wants to ensure the spotlight does not fall on them.
The vatican is proceeding properly. In an ordered and structured way. await the announcements following the meetings currently in progress in Rome. Less histeria and more results are needed. This stupid approach and hoo haa serves no one excepyt those more interested in Church bashing than the children involved.
I would love to see it opened right up. Police and Politicians are involved - let us hope they too are jailed. Let us rip open this disgusting underbelly of Irish society.
And why stop there? Lets go on and find out what was happening in the North. Every single orphange, whether state or secular should be investigated. Every single one. No opt outs. and that includes Kincora.
We cannot allow any organisation, from British Intelligence to the Church have an opt out. No national interest comes before children.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 03:22 PMFintan O’Toole is a joke. The Catholic Church saw off Stalin (‘how many divisions has the Pope?’) in double quick time. It will have even less difficulty with O’Toole, Stalin’s representative on earth. The vast majority of the Irish people will always prefer Faith schools to State schools. If anyone disputes this, let’s have a referendum in every parish in the country right NOW. Apart from Faith-related reasons, Faith schools provide far better education than State schools. That’s one of the reasons why the standard of education in the Republic is so far above that in Britain (source: check recent PISA and HBSC reports). As for O’Toole’s absurd claim that the Catholic Church is ‘effectively dead’, a recent survey showed that almost 70 per cent of the population attend Mass at least once a month and almost 50 per cent attend Mass at least once a week. Some death!
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 03:33 PM‘Let us rip open this disgusting underbelly of Irish society.’
Of course Coll my mistake—it’s all Irish society’s fault that the church’s representatives raped and abused children, entirely the police’s fault that they naively assumed the church hierarchy would deal with paedophiles in their midst, entirely parents fault that they trusted these men of god and their supposed moral guardians.
This happened in the US too—is that all the fault of the ‘disgusting underbelly of US society?’
It is Irish children who have been the victims of a church who demanded and still demand complete control over society. The vatican bear responsibility for the actions of their employees—such ‘diplomatic protocols’ are entirely superflous and merely give the impression of an unco-operative hierarchy hiding in ivory towers.
I’ve no arguments with you regarding the scope of child abuse investigations—no organisation can have any excuse for concealing such actions. I personally would feel no different were the organisation in question the presbyterian church, the GAA or the OO.
Unfortunately for the catholic church, the extent and duration of the abuse and the cynical and criminal way it was systematically covered up completely dwarf any accusations of other groupings. The extent and scope of these crimes against children are literally mind-boggling and require complete unconditional co-operation and access.
Rather than hiding behind diplomatic protocols, the vatican should be doing everything in it’s power to demonstrate it’s good faith and determination to fully put it’s house in order.
‘No national interest comes before children.’
And no church interest comes before children either.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 03:53 PMTHe key question that is running through my mind regarding the vatican’s refusal to release papers - why had they these papers inthe first place?
If the vatican is now a foreign state, why was it holding papers relating to crimes committed by irish citizens against irish citizens? or were the crimes committed by vatican citizens against irish citizens?
If they were of course acting as a wider part of the church then no diplomatic niceties should have been necessary.
This whole mess exposes the duplicity of the catholic church, one minute they are part of the country’s society, involved in everything part of everything and then amazingly they are they are a foreign state.
So quick question when a priets sits on the board of a school or a hospital, is he an irish citizen representing the church or a vatican citizen representing the vatican?
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 03:54 PMIt’s kind of ironic that republicans who shortly after winning freedom from England, freedom which they claim(and I don’t doubt)came at a great cost to nationlists, hand it over (willy nilly) to a foreign power…...the Vatican. Can anyone answer why?
It appears that the R.C. church controlled the police commanders in the south along with the politicians. Would I be right in saying that John Charles McQuaid helped write the republics constitution? An elderly relative of mine who worked for the Irish Times in Dublin just after the war, told me recently of the clashes between the protestant editor of the paper and McQuaid and how he believes(McQuaid)didn’t want a protestant about the place.
It looks like the old saying Home rule is Rome rule was actually true. It would be interesting to know what the political parties in the south knew about what was going on and was there any cover up at the behest of the R.C. church. It is good to see that foreign minister Martin is prepared to speak out and as we say here to “call a spade a spade.”
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 04:17 PMHome Rule was indeed Rome Rule in the Republic, and it seems it will continue to be so. However the power was not taken rather it was freely handed over.
There is something in the Catholic psyche that at a fundamental level avoids questioning the old men of the Church and meekly accepts their edicts.
As a Protestant I had to accompany my then soon to be wife to see her priest to ask permission for her to be married outside her home parish.I was astounded to see this strong-willed intelligent woman become a meek little mouse totally in thrall to the priest.
I had to endure poorly veiled insults about my own church (I had been warned before the meeting to keep my mouth shut) and that the prospects for our intended marriage was down to this man’s whim.
I was left with the impression that if this was typical of the interaction between priest and parishioner there was something deeply unhealthy about the clergy’s attitude to their flock and vice versa.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 05:30 PMalan ,
‘Can anyone answer why?’
At that particular time broadly (1890 to 1920 ) the RC Church hierarchy was coming around to the idea that an ‘independent ’ Irish State might actually come into being and thus they hedged their bets for a while with the higher clergy still supporting the Union because of the worldwide ‘marketing’ reach of the British Empire whereas the lower clergy were more influenced by the rising ‘nationalist ’ elements . At that time also the RC Church was what distinguished the majority of Irish from the majority of Britons so it became a badge marker for identity. The RC Church lashed on to this stick as a way to ‘differentiate’ themselves from the mid 19th century RC Church which was very pro Union
With the Free State 90% plus RC the Vatican did’nt have a lot to do in the 1930’s except collect the cash . Dev’s ‘1937 ’ Constitution was an artful ploy to find favour with the hierarchy of the RC Church many of whom would have accused the Dev of the 1920’s of being a ‘red’ .
peter ,‘However the power was not taken rather it was freely handed over.’
I don’t think the new political establishment either the Free Staters under W. Cosgrave or the later Dev could have tackled the Church authorities in the way that is possible today -particularly given the religious demographics of the 26 county State at that time .
‘I was left with the impression that if this was typical of the interaction between priest and parishioner there was something deeply unhealthy about the clergy’s attitude to their flock and vice versa.’Typical of many I would say but not all . I can recall family members standing up to clergy in no uncertain terms but then in rural areas that would have been less possible or would have consequences .
But you are correct it was and where it still exists deeply unhealthy . Those clergy accused of abuse you will find mostly performed their abuse on the weakest members of their flocks - the poor -the orphans -the isolated the ignorant and uneducated and the fearful .
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 06:14 PMgerry
Of course it is not the fault of the Church - it is the fault solely of men within the church and beyond. It is purely societal. It occurs outside the Church, and not only in Ireland also. The secular orphanages in England for example, were just as bad. Irish society is full of this. Ask the men at Garnerville - they will tell you as they told me that there is a paedophile on every street. What the Church is guilty of is not dealing with it properly. They are no more guilty of paedophiles in their priesthood as the schools who also have them as teachers. So, yes, it is societal.
As for the US there is more Protestant clergy been found to be paedopghiles there than Catholic clergy so it is hardly a solely catholic problem there at least and yes - some of those establishments also covered up.If you say that “The vatican bear responsibility for the actions of their employees—such ‘diplomatic protocols’ are entirely superflous and merely give the impression of an unco-operative hierarchy hiding in ivory towers”
then you accept that as employees of the state the state also holds responsibility. And, this is a serious point, those who do not address that are seeking to cover that involvement up. As for “ivory towers” that shows how flawed your approach is. It allows others involved to escape. Rome will answer, but only in the correct fashion ensuring justice is done. The politicos trying to cover up their colleagues and their police forces part in this may get upset. That is their peoblem. I suspect Rome is going to make sure that all is revealed. More surprises are on the way for seculatr society. I wonder if their will be many calling for the demise of the state or its police?
I would agree with most of the rest of your post but I do insist that all involved are equally to blame for the cover up. And it is the cover up which is really galling. Who does not expect these things to happen? They will happen again. The recent expose of boxing and swimming coaches show how widespread this problem is.No one is hiding behind protocol except those who do not want to use protocol as it would expose those who do not wish to be involved. I trust the vatican is putting the house in order - await the result of the talks ongoing in Rome.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 06:40 PMColl I don’t intend to get into a theological argument over ‘who’ or ‘what’ the church is. For my purposes here the church is it’s human representatives as opposed to buildings or supernatural aspirations.
You seem extremely eager to point out that child abuse is present in all stratas of society and no-one would dispute that. The difference here is not only the magnitude of the abuse and cover-ups but the fact that the church purports to be a guardian and teacher of morality whereas say the GAA isn’t.
As such everyone is entitled to expect much higher standards—in any large organisation with close proximity to children there will inevitably be paedophiles present—the proof of the organisation’s morality is how they react to this discovery. At the very least we might expect such individuals to be dismissed and reported to the police. Is this unreasonable?Instead we find an institution whose repeated policy is to move the paedophile to another parish, merely to abuse elsewhere. A culture of denial, obstruction and arrogance. An organisation supposedly of high moral standards branding children and their parents as liars for having the temerity to report crimes of whic they are already well aware.
It’s the sickening hypocrisy, the complete lack of even the most basic morality, the arrogance of self-preservation at all costs that sets the catholic church apart from the secular institutions. The fact that the church demanded and was given complete immunity from investigation merely made a bad situation infinitely worse.
Yes the state must accept some culpability—a police force failing to act in the interest of it’s most vulnerable citizens—children, a govt so dependent and complacent that they brushed aside all reports and rumours. But the ultimate blame lies with the catholic church and their abject failure to ensure even the most basic morality in an institution purporting to be moral guardians.
‘‘Rome will answer, but only in the correct fashion ensuring justice is done.’‘
Coll Rome has had decades if not centuries to do justice by the innocents. They chose not to in the face of overwhelming evidence and went to incredible lengths to ensure that no-one even attempted an investigation.
To suggest that after all this time we should trust the vatican to do the right thing is beyond laughable.Your attempts to defend the indefensible with arguments such as ‘sure everyone does it’ and ‘the police & state are just as guilty’ are valiant but ultimately misplaced.
The time for diplomatic protocols and deafening silence is long past—Ireland north & south as well as the rest of the catholic globe deserve at the very least to know what went on and why. The church can co-operate and salvage something from the wreckage or become pariahs to all but the hardcore few.Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 07:55 PMcoll, you are very niave indeed if you think that Rome will co-operate fully or release all the information it posseses about the abuse.It is Rome that has been helping to cover it up for all these years. This has been going on for generations and the church has been moving priests all over the world to hide them from the authorities. There is no way on earth that any of the previous popes knew nothing about what was going on. In fact did jp11 not make benedict his troubleshooter for a while to help cover it up?
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 07:59 PMThe Papal Nuncio should be expelled for the appaling disrespect shown to the Irish people and State by his failure to respond let alone co-operate with the Inquiry. The Church wants to be a foreign power when it suits and an integral part of Irish society when that suits. Every person with any knowledge of this matter should be before the Courts.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 08:40 PM‘Couldn’t comment - shouldn’t’, asks why the Vatican had “these papers”.
In 2001 the Pope, then Cardinal Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the world.
The letter, ‘concerning very grave sins’, was sent from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office that once presided over the Inquisition and was overseen by Ratzinger.
It spells out to bishops the church’s position on a number of matters ranging from celebrating the Eucharist with a non-Catholic to sexual abuse by a cleric ‘with a minor below the age of 18 years’.
Ratzinger’s letter states that the church can claim jurisdiction in cases where abuse has been ‘perpetrated with a minor by a cleric’.
The letter states that the church’s jurisdiction ‘begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age’ and lasts for 10 years.
It orders that ‘preliminary investigations’ into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzinger’s office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the ‘functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests’.
‘Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,’ Ratzinger’s letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotectionI live in the Republic of Ireland. I doubt I will continue to do so if I can sell my house any time soon!! Today I listened to an old man who was sentenced to 15 days in Mountjoy jail because he had adopted a small dog from the ISPA and had forgotten to get a licence. His ‘debt’ - 12.50 Euro. A state pensioner, he was fined 350 Euro + a further E300 to cover costs.
It is impossible to reconcile this with the fact that priests who abused children have been facilitated by the Church and the political system to move to the UK without any warning given to the relevant authorities there. That none of them appear on the Republic’s sex offenders register that only came into being in 2002. That many of them are living in Ireland, in retirement, funded by the pennies of the elderly still attending mass.
Seanie Fitzpatrick of “no f**king Prod is getting my bank” fame, (David McWilliams quote) is a free man, his bank, Anglo Irish, bailed out by taxpayers. Nobody in the upper echelons on banking has been removed despite evidence of corruption and fraud.
Politicians have squandered millions on themselves and the country is bankrupt. Developers and builders have conned people into buying houses built on flood plains. Those houses are unihabitable today.
NOBODY in that ‘golden’ circle - Church, government, banks, developers, builders - is called to account. This is a people indoctrinated from birth to grave in Roman Catholic dogma - unquestioning obedience to authority and a carefully divided society - the privileged got an education and gave their allegiance to the church. The poor got dumped in slave labour camps, emerged illiterate and then emigrated. The irony of that is the huge numbers that found refuge in England!.
NO child of the middle-class was incarcerated in the Industrial school hell-holes, I haven’t heard of any child of a lawyer, doctor, dentist, politician, rich builder, having been abused by the parish priest. No.The victims are ALL children of the ‘devout’ working class or the poverty-stricken poor.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 09:00 PMWell said K. Scott!
Its time for the Irish people to throw these bunch of parasites off our backs. Their collective behaviour over the past years displays very clearly what they think of us. Now, let us stop bowing and scraping. No more deference to those who would protect child abusers.
Posted by on Dec 08, 2009 @ 11:19 PMGerryLvsCastro 17
No an awful lot of that I disagree with. However let us remain focused. I do disagree with the attack on the Vatican for its insistence that protocol be maintained. This is because I do not want anyone escaping the net. The best way to ensure that is to follow procedure and ensure that a thorough investigation occurs, however painstaking and slow it may be. I prefer slow and sure than fast and loose. Which is what the enquiry is playing by not observing proper protocol.I especially agree with your assertion that more is expected from the Church. I am very much aware of the entire Chapter 12 of St Luke. Very appropriate.
Posted by on Dec 09, 2009 @ 12:00 AMK Scott - seems you have been dupedd by people with an agenda against the Church which means they will misrepresent facts. The letter deals with Canon law and in fact imposes stricter control to ensure malefactors are more seriously dealt with. It has nothing whatsoever to do with civil law.
http://www.snapnetwork.org/news/vatican/Doctrinal_congregation_takes.htm
Posted by on Dec 09, 2009 @ 12:16 AMjust today
They are irish people - and we are them.
Posted by on Dec 09, 2009 @ 12:17 AMThey are irish people - and we are them.
Posted by Coll CiotachSorry mate… the Vatican is NOT the Irish people.
I am for the Republic - 1798 ... 1916. What De Valera, desperate for respectability and the acceptance by the Church gave us was a Theocracy.
And his natural inheritors FF, the incompetent ‘Soldiers of Destiny’ (the lots of dosh for me and mine breed) have corrupted, squandered and imitated their masters in the Vatican - secrecy, self-interest, arrogance and silence. And don’t forget “assets”. Assets gained on the backs of child slave labour and the pennies of the Irish poor.
They don’t know a damned thing about Republicanism. The men of ‘98 had principles. So too the men who died in 1916. Do you think James Connolly and Michael Collins would have sold the Republic to Rome?
It’s a betrayal - a Theocracy masquerading as a (Banana) Republic. If you cannot see that then the conclusions of the Ryan and Dublin reports are totally accurate. Everybody knew, nobody saw, nobody spoke. What’s changed? A brainwashed, infantillised nation.
Posted by on Dec 09, 2009 @ 01:45 AM
