Wednesday, April 02, 2008
Two pieces of blue touch paper
A Fermanagh GAA player and journalist has called for a more substantial push to make the GAA more attractive to Unionists including changing Rule 2. Martin O’Neill and Pat Jennings have expressed support for an All-Ireland football team.
Fair Deal @ 03:28 PM
Excellent and long overdue. As someone from the P/U/L community, I have long enjoyed football and hurling. The atmosphere at any matches I went to was brilliant. The crowd really gets into it. The language is foul and the banter is great.
But as I have written before, out of my social circle, I’m the only one from that particular community that would openly say it. I’ve tried to get mates to come to matches, but it just ain’t happening.
Why? Well, he’s absolutely right about the language. And I think if you really want to get some sort of mass movement on this, the flag and the anthem would have to go too.
As I found out before when I wrote this, this isn’t going to go down well (*waits for the slings and arrows of outraged followers of the sports*), but ultimately, if the GAA is serious about this, those are the sorts of changes that will have to be made.
(That, and a bit more open-ness about getting tickets for the Final!!)
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 04:53 PMObviously if i was from Fermanagh, I would be in favour of anything that increased the county selection pool, lord knows they need it. Tir Eoghain Abú !
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:05 PMIf the GAA started assassinating GAA members or burning down GAA halls, would that help?
We need an all Ireland soccer team like we need a hole i nthe head. There is an all Ireland GAA team and an all Ireland rugby team and neither set the world on fire.
Also Martin O’Neill is not highly regarded in Provie circles. He got an MBE and Beardy did not.Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:25 PMAnd I think if you really want to get some sort of mass movement on this, the flag and the anthem would have to go too.
shudders
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:28 PMOn the GAA
Yeah agreed that changes are needed. The political rhetoric in the rulebook and in the ethos of the GAA are from previous times reflecting the enviroment of the times in which it was drafted. It now seems dated (in much of Ireland) and it isn’t really the purpose of a sporting organisation to take a political stance. Also agree the flag and anthem are surplus to requirements, would say this even if the Irish were one happy united bunch, don’t believe the Brits bother with theirs for the FA Cup.
On the all-Ireland football team
Society probably not quite ready for this one. Obviously with nationalists ignoring the Northern Ireland team, its direction is completely controlled by unionists, making the merger at best a fantasy.Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:36 PMGood to add Big Pat and Martin added to the ranks of NI players such as George Best wishing to see an All-Ireland team-although with Ulstermen Shay Given and Darron Gibson already playing for Ireland, to all intents and purposes this already exists.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:42 PMDec wrote: Shudder
Yeah, I know you mean. It’s anathema. I understand. But for some of the less enlightened brethren, that’s the step that would have to be taken. I’m not advocating it. But if they’re serious about it, that’s the road they’ll have to go down.
But you know, a little change is often a good thing. Consul notes that the language comes from a rhetoric now long past. Times have changed - are the GAA willing to make their own changes?
It’s all in the marketing.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:45 PMConsul
I suggest you acquaint yourself with the constitution of the GAA before you describe it as [purely] a sporting association. Also the idea that, outside of Ireland, sporting associations are devoid of political undertones is bizarre. Have you ever heard of international competition?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:50 PMRaven
I know we’ve been down this route before, but it’s a 32-county organisation and can you foresee a future All-Ireland football final between Cork and Dublin, devoid of anthem and flag to placate some people who aren’t actually there.
btw I’ve often wondered that when it comes to the GAA, sport and politics are incompatible but when it comes to the Orange Order, they’re perfect bedfellows.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:54 PMSo we have some of this region’s best ever soccer players advocating an All-Ireland team - do the IFA and FAI take advice or do they just play dumb?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:57 PMDec
I’ve read the constitution before actually, I’m aware of the conditions that brought the GAA about. The costitution was relevant to that era.
Thats what I mean, in 1884 it was more than a sporting association, I guess it still is. Thats the problem, maybe it should divorce itself from politics completely. Outside Ulster it has already done this subconciously. I have heard of international competition incidentally, but the GAA is on a domestic sphere unless you’re suggesting the border makes it international.Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:03 PMDon’t bank on the IFA agreeing to an all Ireland team anytime soon. The Northern Ireland football team is as popular as it has ever been and I can’t see them wanting to lose that. I for one love the NI matches and I think a NI supporters culture is just forming and it would be terrible to see that go
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:04 PMAustin,
Shay Given is indeed an Ulsterman. But from the part of Ulster that is in the Republic. Not really evidence for the supposed all-Ireland nature of the team.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:05 PM“That phrase ‘through the strengthening of the national identity of a 32-county Ireland’ does rankle with unionism. That came in in 1971.
“Before that, the Rule (merely) talked about the ‘preservation of Ireland’s games and pastimes’.
I never knew that the wording of that particular rule was as recent as 1971.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:05 PMDec, the last time we had this sort of thread, that’s absolutely where the conversation went! Please understand here: I am not advocating any of the above.
Perhaps for matches in the North - and maybe even then only in certain areas - there could be some flexibility to allow this to happen. How bad a thing would it be?
In fact, if I take that one stage further, and take your Cork/Dublin scenario….how badly affected would play be, without the flag and the anthem?
It’s only a thought. I love watching the stuff, I’m not a GAA know-all, I don’t even go to that many matches any more. But imagine a few steps taken to potentially add a third more revenue to the clubs…? Worth thinking about…and we know how dear to their hearts money is… ;-)
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:05 PMDec
I suggest you acquaint yourself with the constitution of the GAA before you describe it as [purely] a sporting association.
But isn’t Colm BRadley arguing that the constitution should be changed. Presumably he would support ditching the ethno-political ethos and becoming purely sporting?
Also the idea that, outside of Ireland, sporting associations are devoid of political undertones is bizarre. Have you ever heard of international competition?
Usually, when a sporting body combines more than one political jurisdiction, it attempts some kind of neutrality with symbols, anthems, etc., e.g. West Indies cricket, Irish cricket, British and Irish Lions rugby, etc.
btw I’ve often wondered that when it comes to the GAA, sport and politics are incompatible but when it comes to the Orange Order, they’re perfect bedfellows.
Interesting that you make the comparison.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:09 PMReally Garibaldi? A significant number of young Ulstermen have been declaring for the Irish national team instead of NI at all age levels. Add this to the thousands of fans who attend games in Dublin,then I think the all-Ireland nature of the team and the all-Ireland composition of its support is quite evident.
Next thing on the horizon will be the continuing decline of the IFA Irish League which given the events of Saturday can’t come quickly enough-bullets in the post to Catholic managers, the attempted sectarian murder allegedly by Linfield Fans and their Blues Brother fascist cohorts not to mention the waving of UVF flags by Linfield fans at the Oval last Saturday.
No wonder Big Pat and Martin O’Neill have now voiced their desire for a unified team….
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:29 PMThe GAA is a very democratic body. Protestants if they joined in sufficient numbers could effect change from within the organisation. I’m sure some kind of fudge could be done whereby the GAA would acknowledge that there are two traditions/identities on the island and that the Association cherishes both.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:32 PMbtw I’ve often wondered that when it comes to the GAA, sport and politics are incompatible but when it comes to the Orange Order, they’re perfect bedfellows.
Dec, as someone who was born protestant, has never been invoved with Orangism in any way and considers himself Irish first and foremost, I find myself totally baffled by this statement.
For which sports is the Orange Order a governing body? Or, failing that, in which sports does the Orange Order wield significant influence?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:42 PMThe GAA is a very democratic body. Protestants if they joined in sufficient numbers could effect change from within the organisation. I’m sure some kind of fudge could be done whereby the GAA would acknowledge that there are two traditions/identities on the island and that the Association cherishes both.
You won’t get sufficient numbers joining unless the GAA ditches the republican ethos and rules.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:47 PMbtw I’ve often wondered that when it comes to the GAA, sport and politics are incompatible but when it comes to the Orange Order, they’re perfect bedfellows.
Should have read:
btw I’ve often wondered that when it comes to the GAA, sport and politics are incompatible but when it comes to the Orange Order, religion and politics make perfect bedfellows.
WF
Presumably he [Bradley} would support ditching the ethno-political ethos and becoming purely sporting?
Clearly not:
“I should also point out that you don’t have to dilute the Irishness or to dilute the gaelic culture. Some rules can be changed quite simply.”If it’s purely sporting, it’s not the GAA.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 06:49 PMA bit of a conundrum for the GAA alright.
If it was solely a sporting organisation then I don’t think there would be a big problem but the association was set up to achieve more.
This is from the preamble to the GAA constitution (While some of the language is pretty archaic the general gist is clear):
“Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the G.A.A. a means of consolidating our Irish identity.
The games to them are more than games - they have a national significance - and the promotion of
native pastimes becomes a part of the full national ideal, which envisages the speaking of our own language, music and dances.The primary purpose of the G.A.A. is the organisation of native pastimes and the promotion of athletic fitness as a means to create a
disciplined, self- reliant, national-minded manhood. The overall result is the expression of a people’s preference for native ways as
opposed to imported ones.Since she has no control over all the national territory, Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired. It would be still more impaired if
she were to lose her language, if she failed to provide a decent livelihood for her people at home, or if she were to forsake her own
games and customs in favour of the games and customs of another nation.If pride in the attributes of nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in our race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost makes us so much poorer as a Nation. Today, the native games take on a new significance when it is realised that they have been a part, and still are a part, of the Nation’s desire to live her own life, to govern her own affairs.”
Obviously if the above is your goal, then you wouldn’t have a problem with the Irish national flag and anthem at games.
So how do you attract Protestants who are also British unionists who would feel uncomfortable in an association which promotes Irish Nationhood so strongly?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 07:12 PMGeorge,
Therein lies the problem, the GAA isn’t a purely sporting body, never has been, it is based on identity, culture and community. Attempts to increase uptake from those that need dilution of the core values of membership seem to be about changing the organisation into something much poorer - a solely sporting body.
I can think of some things that I’d be happy to see change that don’t dilute the core values - things like club masses, Catholicism isn’t part of the deal when you sign up so I don’t see why it should be part of the programme.
In 21st Ireland I see the GAA as relevant as ever, defending one sense of Irishness in an increasingly multi-cultural Ireland. If others are uncomfortable with that form of Irishness that’s their prerogative but I see no need to change it anymore than I would expect ChineseIrish to make their New Year more European and see attempts to make Orange events more inclusive as ludicrous.
If Protestants of whatever political outlook can’t engage with the GAA on the terms it was set up, that really is their loss but no need to turn it into something it isn’t.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 07:58 PM“If Protestants of whatever political outlook can’t engage with the GAA on the terms it was set up, that really is their loss but no need to turn it into something it isn’t.”
And therein lies the quandary. Of course, as I said, I advocate none of the above. I’m not a member. I’m not overly offended by the flag and anthem at the game.
But if we all recognise that things like the flag, the anthem, the language in the rule book etc are stumbling blocks to increasing Protestant participation, and the GAA recognises this, but nobody is willing to explore the notions of the flexibility that I mentioned above, then why are we bothering with the discussion at all?
Might someone from “the other side” not have written a few years ago:
“If Catholics of whatever political outlook can’t engage with the RUC on the terms it was set up, that really is their loss but no need to turn it into something it isn’t.”
“If Catholics of whatever political outlook can’t engage with the statelet/region of Northern Ireland on the terms it was set up, that really is their loss but no need to turn it into something it isn’t.”
Hold fire on that trigger finger there a moment.
What I’ve just written of course, is absurd. But if things like the Orange Order, the police service in whatever format, the IFA, the civil service, the statelet of Northern Ireland all recognise that there is need for change, and that the opinions and views of all need to be mutually respected - then can’t the GAA do likewise…?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 08:25 PMWith Greats like Best, Jennings, O’Neill, Dougan & Lennon all supportive of a single Ireland team, it makes you wonder when football will join with every other major sport on the island in playing as a single team.
I think however, with the heavily politicised football support and asociation in the North, its likely that unionism will continue to hold onto its wee team.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 08:42 PM
