Tuesday, August 07, 2007
Truth, half-truth and nothing like the truth..
Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams has been promoting his party’s March for Half-Truth again and is talking up the prospect of extending its declared objectives.. He’s also been criticising the Eames/Bradley consultative group - “I have problems in relation to its remit”. But it’s the BBC report on the press conference which points to one of the reasons why I and, I’d suggest, others are sceptical of his self-appointed role as a ‘campaigner for truth’ - “he said criticism of his own past should not mask the central issue.” [and which past would that be, Gerry? - Ed]
Pete Baker @ 04:51 PM
Is it not fair, irrespective of whether it’s Gerry Adams or Ian Paisley, who is calling for “the Truth”, that the British government make full disclosure of all of its involvement in the Troubles?
Lord Stevens cobbled together something like 25 files, I think it was, in which he felt probable cause existed for prosecution, only to have the PPS refuse to proceed. Does that not give rise to the reasonable conclusion that the grand cover up is continuing?
It would seem no longer a matter of whether or not there should be full disclosure, but only the manner in which it can best be brought about.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 05:49 PMGerry “I wasn’t in the IRA” Adams calls for truth.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 05:50 PMThe ‘truth’ on Bloody Sunday cost so far £180m.
Perspective: that’s about three times the £70m cost of the new high quality dual carraige way from the M22 to Castledawson. (see here).
Lets invest our money, friends.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 05:55 PMPerhaps if Lord Widgery had done his job properly a the Saville Inquiry into the events at Derry, 30 January, 1972, would not have been necessary; and perhaps, if the British Army had made full and complete disclosure of all facts at the outset, the Exchequer would have not had to expend the amount of funds it has expended.
The real problem will be when the latest report into the events at Derry, 30 January, 1972, is finally released, and all we have are blank pages, because the British government and British Army have stonewalled the Saville Inquiry.
The mere existence of the Saville Inquiry, some thirty-five plus years out from that Sunday in Derry, only supports the need for full disclosure by the British government, and not the other way round.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 06:45 PMSomebody though should run with this and go for all the truth like a fierce wee pitbull.
I mean FFS Gerry, we want the truth about Scap, Lough Gall, you and the masked men and all that as much as we want the collusion stuff.Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 06:48 PMIt’s interesting that there is no attempt to deny or query the substance of Gerry’s demands for truth just the usual what-aboutery. ‘Self-appointed’? FFS he’s the leader of the largest nationalist party in NI and speaks for a large part of the electorate who have supported him repeatedly at the ballot box.
Is there any hope that the unionist posters on this site will ever try and get their heads around this democracy thing?
The UUP reneged on the GFA and suffered because the voters really aren’t that stupid. The electorate knows that we need powersharing and an agreed future, which will include an acknowledgement from the British Government of it’s dirty war.
The IRA have turned their weapons into ploughsnares and it’s time for the Brits and their glovepuppets in the UDA to do likewise.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 07:10 PMI might be being undly cynical here, but, given the deal that was struck over OTR’s and no prosecutions of government personnel, I suspect very strongly that the main reason for this march is to continue the appearance of being an active, campaigning and oppositional party while actually now being the establishment.
Clearly a lot of disgraceful things from government sources happened during the Troubles, especially springing from the army’s attitude to civilian life in the early 1970s in places like Ballymurphy, not just Derry. The people who lost loved ones deserve an apology and an acknowledgement from government of the mistakes made. But I think for society as a whole neither a series of endless inquiries nor a trutch commission would be useful, or in fact effective.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 07:46 PMThere have been recent trials in Italy over administrative actions taken during WW2, and in America over murders of Civil Rights workers in the 60’s.
There is no reason to believe that the actions of Mount Vernon loyalists in recent years aided and abetted by HM Forces as they were are different in character or less culpable merely because the British Government is belatedly withdrawing from Ireland.
If Pinochet can be hounded to the grave then let’s have the Brigadiers in court, and if Britain won’t clean it’s own house then do it in the Hague. Let’s see just how far up the trail can be followed.
It’ll end when the torturors and murderers are dead or locked up, not before.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 08:14 PMSo Gerry and co are after the truth are they?
I have no special knowledge but some degree of collusion probably did happen. How much was there? unclear. What effect did it have, probably not that much in the great scheme of things but clearly a great deal to anyone whose family members were murdered or injured as a result of it. Was any collusion done to try to minimise the total ammount of death and destruction? Quite probably but that in no way excuses it. Collusion between the state and terroists is unacceptable. I guess it can start as just informers in organistaions and esclate. Maybe the line was fine at times but I suspect that most people would actually be aware (with hindsight at least) when it had been crossed and something perfectly reasonable (informers) had become something wrong (collusion).
The Saville enquiry will no doubt come out and if it says the parachute regiment murdered those people it will be lauded and further enquiries demanded. If it says anything else there will be further howls of cover up and further enquiries demanded.
A vast elephant in the room of getting at the “truth” is, however, the IRA campagin.
SF/IRA admit to have caused hurt but that is hardly much of the “truth” is it?
Why will Martin McGuiness not tell us whether or not he killed people or sanctioned their deaths?
Why did the IRA not admit Kingsmill? Indeed have they ever admitted it?
Why did the IRA lie about the Enniskillen bombing?
The list could go on and on.
Various posters have previously told us that nothing would be gained by the IRA telling us these things and anyway how would we know if they are telling the truth? Well exactly the same could be said about the British government.
If the British governemt told us what the security forces know / suspect about the various murders then it would be up to the IRA to try to deny these “truths”
Also if the British government did state that Martin McGuiness had been in cahoots with the government for 20 or 30 years how would that “truth” be recieved by the republican movement? How would the republican movement take to being told that the IRA leadership helped ensure Loughgall, if indeed they did?
The truth sought by SF is a truth for their own ends. It would be a partial truth and any bits they did not like would no doubt be denied. As Garibaldy says it may well be they are not interested in any relevations just in being seen to want them.
Lib 2016, you want your truth because of a democratic mandate for SF, well do the unionist community deserve truth? As to “it will end when the torturors and murderers are dead or locked up, not before.” what about Martin and Gerry do you want them and their friends locked up or just dead?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 08:24 PMSlug,
“Perspective: that’s about three times the £70m cost of the new high quality dual carraige way from the M22 to Castledawson. (see here).
Lets invest our money, friends.”
That is what is called false economy. Invest in necessary truth and you will get honest toil in return.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 08:36 PMThe truth will never be known so lets stop fooling ourselves and draw a line under the past.
If GA insists on the brits coming clean about their activities the rest of us will insist on GA telling us what he knows about SF/IRA and their crimes but perhaps I have made a mistake because they did not commit any crime!
Lets move on and forget.Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 08:59 PMLib2116: ‘It’ll end when the torturors and murderers are dead or locked up, not before.’
Actually Lib most were released under the GFA.
Surely even the most blinkered SF supporter must be tiring of Gerry’s endless search for the truth whilst denying his own past.
The man certainly has some neck on him. Having signed up to partition, decommissioning, administering British rule and the PSNI, he’s now wanting to march against the establishment he’s firmly in bed with. Anyone remember the ‘make partition history’ campaign whilst simultaneously signing up to the consent principle? Adams antics are becoming increasingly tedious and he’s well on course to pass John Hume’s world boredom record sometime in 2009.Face it folks, SF are a beaten docket. They’ve played all their cards and failed abysmally to deliver a UI, gain support for the left or impress the southern electorate. Now that they’re just another party without weaponry, no-one wants to know.
All Gerry has to offer is a sad revisionist notion of the troubles and the odd protest march that most people could care less about. The man and his party deserve nothing more than to be roundly ignored.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 08:59 PMTurgon,
If you have evidence of wrongdoing by anybody then present it to whatever authorities you believe in or make it public.
I’m quite happy to see the law take it’s course. The question of whether violence was done by republicans or unionists or by the British authorities is simply immaterial. If Justice isn’t blind then it’s not justice.
How long does it take for unionists to understand that Sinn Fein has gathered support as it moved away from violence?
The IRA and Sinn Fein have repeatedly apologised for Enniskillen and regretted ALL the killings. When we will see their opponents do likewise or are these daft attempts to divide the dead into ‘good’ victims and ‘bad’ victims to continue forever?
And the nonsense about McGuinness and Adams being run by the Brits? It’s black propaganda of the most obvious kind. The final sign of the huge cultural gap that exists here and the reason why the Brits are leaving - they simply can’t govern us because we’re different.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 09:01 PMGLC,
...and yet the Council of Europe demands that the British Government introduces proper inquiries here. The mills of justice grind slowly but there are a lot of survivors left to see that they continue to grind.
Never mind - another sixty years or so and it should all go away. ;-)
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 09:07 PMlib2016
the IRA have repeatedly apologised for ALL the killings????
im sorry but i dont recall them ever coming out and saying sorry for killings,they still mintain to this day that gene mcconnville was an informer!
they still claim that the IRA fought a “JUST WAR” which to everyone else seems to mean every death was just! unless ur taking a different meaning to the full thing???
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 09:10 PMCuchulainn,
Read what I wrote. Then attempt to reply to it.
Goodnight
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 09:14 PMLib 2016,
“The final sign of the huge cultural gap that exists here and the reason why the Brits are leaving - they simply can’t govern us because we’re different.”You really do not get it or consistently ignore it. You feel different from the “Brits”, most unionists feel British. Yes maybe they are a distinct sub group of the British but the majority still feel British.
In terms of the “Brits” leaving as you are so fond of. I feel a “Brit” what do you do about me?
As to the IRA apologising for Enniskillen, I do not regard their weasel words as an apology and you will go a long way before you get many unionists to regard anything that SF/IRA have said as an apology. Yes they regret that they “had” to kill us. How kind of them.
You want an enquiry into collusion and such like. Why do you not see that enquiries into numerous IRA crimes would be appropriate? Also of course enquiries into alledged RoI collusion in terrorism?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 09:21 PMLib,
“If you have evidence of wrongdoing by anybody then present it to whatever authorities you believe in or make it public” .. apply the same to your previous comments.
Do you seriously believe apologies can suffice when people demand the truth?
You really highlight you don’t have any fecking understanding of the magnitude of the suffering that militant republicans have inflicted on society.
Sure it was all just for the greater good and and all a bit ‘o craic, no harm done.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 09:49 PMAny time I see or hear Gerry Adams this weather, it strikes me that he is struggling to appear relevant, at a bit of a lose end. Now with this latest ruse, credibility must surely be a problem, unless this is the time to bite the bullet, take a cue from the now Deputy First Minister, and come clean?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 09:55 PMIf Pinochet can be hounded to the grave then let’s have the Brigadiers in court, and if Britain won’t clean it’s own house then do it in the Hague. Let’s see just how far up the trail can be followed.
Just remember, lib, that what is sauce for the goose is what is sauce for the gander. Are the IRA going to come clean about Enniskillen, La Mon, Kingsmill, and dozens of other actions that were within it’s own terms of reference war crimes? I’d haul all the bastards up in court - the Brigadiers and the Active Service Units - but do remember that the Brits and the Shinners cut a deal to keep all of this out of the courts.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 10:17 PMLib:
Never mind - another sixty years or so and it should all go away. ;-)Well at least you’re accepting that NI will be under British jurisdiction for at least the next 60 years. Progress my friend progress :)
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 10:28 PMlib
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the IRA ‘regret’ civilian deaths only?
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 10:38 PMI always knew that Gerry Adams had a brass neck, but this just proves he has a neck like a jockey’s bollocks. If he wants the truth, surely he must understand that he must be fothcoming with same before demanding it of others. Either everyone will have to come clean (including yourself, Gerry) or we’ll just have to put up with some of the more sordid (and that’s saying something) secrets remaining just that - secret.
Posted by on Aug 07, 2007 @ 11:56 PMOn one hand the pragmatist in me says bury the past and move on, but on the other experience tells me that building on a spider web of lies, half truths and misrepresentations is generally the road to nowhere. In the end someone somewhere breaks rank or seeks to use his knowledge to his advantage. It is the honour among thieves scenario.
The problem with a framework based on lies and half truths is,
1 Who is compromised?
2 To whom are they compromised?
3 Being compromised whose interests are they serving?
4 It is folly to trust anyone because you don’t know the constraints they are working within. Who pulls the strings?
5 In this environment how can the average person have confidence in those involved, the politicians, the UK government, the PSNI and parts of the legal system?
6 No one believes a lot of it anyway. So the end result is to corrode confidence and reinforce cynicism.There is always a high price for maintaining a facade based on lies and often it is better that the truth be out. There are a lot of ‘honourable’ people out there with the sword of Damocles hanging over them. If they had any sense they would retire to the backwoods and let others without a past do the running.
for many.Apart from that there is the small matter of the pursuit of Justice , naive concept perhaps, but I still think an important principle. I hope that many of them succeed for we will all benefit for let us face it the lies merely add a veneer of respectability to those who have been responsible for the most serious of crimes.
Posted by on Aug 08, 2007 @ 08:17 AMPossibly no sense of irony that boy Gerry.
More likely, though, he knows this is all show. Everything all going to be hushed up and he’d prefer that really because its partially for his benefit.
I wouldnt call it bare faced cheek on his part, just that he’s fronting a load of hot air and possibly some people who were victims and related to victims actually put any hope in this when Gerry knows its all going nowhere.
So I think the appropriate phrase is User.
Yet again though...no orginality..black ribbon...first it was green...which was nicked off many a campaign such as breast cancer or yellow ribbons for troops in the USA, those imperialist bastards. Not an original thought in their heads.
Posted by on Aug 08, 2007 @ 09:58 AM
