Monday, April 14, 2008
Total immersion is the way to go…
Shane Coleman has a scathing piece in yesterday’s Sunday Independent on the development of a new education policy for the Gaeltacht areas, which insists that schools must provide “a minimum of 2.5 hours per week for English as Language 2, as set out in the Primary School Curriculum, cannot be delayed beyond the start of the second term in Junior Infants.” This in the face of evidence from NUI Maynooth that children who are educated in their early years in Irish, perform better in English than children educated bilingually from an early age.
The Minister’s biggest crime, he argues, is in listening to officials and ignoring:
Hanafin admits that it was her senior officials and members of the inspectorate who advised her on this matter. She also failed to produce any research to back up this policy change. Neither was there any mention of it in Fianna Fail’s manifesto or in the Programme for Government. In short, a minority of unelected, unaccountable officials have hijacked a democracy.
It has to be said she would not be the first Minister in these islands who set aside evidence for her own official’s preferences.
Mick Fealty @ 09:41 AM
Tá sé chomh símplí le sin. Tá mo pháistí i bhfad Éirinn níos fearr ag léamh is ag labhairt béarla ná páistí mo dheirfúir, agus is de dheasca an ghaelscoil an fáth.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 11:11 AMEven those uninterested in the Irish language should take notice of Mary Hanafin’s obstinacy on this. She has been presented with specialist opinion and has decided that she knows best. I have not heard her produce any justification of her current policy. She clearly feels that she doesn’t need to.
There’s a worrying arrogance about this government, a sense that they can do whatever they want. Agus, i ndiaidh duit súil a chaitheamh ar pháirtithe mí-éifeachtacha an fhreasúra, cé a déarfadh nach mbeidh an lá leo sa chéad toghchán eile fosta? Ar a laghad beidh deis ag muintir na Breataine bata agus bóthar a thabhairt do Brown agus a chomhghleacaithe.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 11:25 AMIs léir go bhfuil baicle ann sa Roinn Éadochais atá ag éirí buartha fá fhás na nGaelscoileanna ó dheas.
It is clear that a handful in the Department of Education are getting quite worried about the development of Gaelscoileanna.
I mo bharúil, ba cheart do scoileanna neamhaird a thabhairt don ordú seo.
In my opinion, this order should be ignored.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 11:30 AMA stalwart of sport, Micheal O Muircheartaigh -… “ It is far more important to preserve the language than any of the national monuments. There is no comparison between even the greatest of national monuments and a living language,”
That’s a sentiment that is so obvious to me - but is a concept that many reject when it comes to languages rather than Giant’s Causeways etc.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 11:50 AMFor balance’s sake - Emer O’Kelly has a piece in the same newspaper in which she, inter alia, describes Irish speakers as ‘xenophobic’ and as a right wing nationalist cadre who have turned normal people, like herself we must presume, into Irish haters.
Here’s a sample of what she said - which should chime with some of the more backward of Slugger commenters who are to informed Irish language debate what the young earthers to scientific discourse.
The conventional approach among Irish language proponents is to claim that everyone loves the language, regards it as their first and native tongue, and would wish to use it daily if only they had the opportunity. Equally, they claim that everyone has at least a reasonable smattering of the language, and the majority of people have a working knowledge of it. In their minds, those who don’t speak Irish, therefore, are bloody-minded, anti-national, negative bigots.
And that is exactly why there is such a hatred of Irish. Its politically-minded proponents (as opposed to those who just speak Irish fluently and gracefully without using it as a weapon) refuse to accept the irrelevance of the language in most people’s lives, and by their antagonism towards that majority view, have gone a long way to institutionalising negativity towards the language.
I admit I’m stirring the pot - but it’s just to point out to those who are on from time to time here decrying moves to promote Irish north of the border that they do have their fellow travellers in the south.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 01:49 PMXenophobic Irish ‘lovers’ a turn-off in any language
Concubhar, you seem to have misunderstood Emer’s article. She points the finger directly at the xenophobes, not at ‘those who just speak Irish fluently and gracefully without using it as a weapon’. Nuance is important.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 02:57 PMWhat else did you expect from a West-Brit.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 03:02 PMThe research to which Marc Coleman refers is that carried out by Dónal Ó Hainiféin, a Gaelscoil teacher and Masters graduate of Acadamh na hOllscolaíochta Gaeilge, an offshoot of NUI Galway. It states that children undergoing total immersion in Irish medium schools are more likely to have better command of English than those in the English medium national schools.
My understanding of Emer O Kelly’s article, Nevin, is that in her mind anyone who is active in promoting the Irish language is a xenophobe who doesn’t want English around the place.....that’s so far from the truth that it’s laughable....
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 03:10 PM“What else did you expect from a West-Brit.”
Good to see you proving her point.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 03:21 PMNot to mention you Chekov you stoop english-wannabe
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 03:24 PMI just read poor Chekhov’s article citing in approval Ms O’Kelly’s ill informed rant against the language and its speakers and imploring those in power not to go down the route advocated by ‘the regressive strain of nationalism’ by avoiding introducing an Irish language act.
How pathetic it is to hate a language, the Irish language or any other language, as Chekov and O’Kelly appear to hate the Irish language....Regressive strains indeed....
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 03:59 PMFrom the forthcoming ‘Dictionary of Sunday Independent Terminology’
Irish language fanatic/Talabani/Gaeilgeoir etc. = someone who speaks Irish and who expects some basic services in Irish
Invariably contrasted with vaguely defined ‘quiet or unassuming Irish speakers’(whose fluency in Irish is always superior to abovementioned fanatic).
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 04:47 PM“she, inter alia, describes Irish speakers as ‘xenophobic’ and as a right wing nationalist cadre”
But she doesn’t, Concubhar. Note ‘politically-minded proponents’ and the first exception I noted.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 06:22 PMNevin
“Note ‘politically-minded proponents’ and the first exception I noted.”
What does “politically-minded” mean? If someone supports government policy that supports the language, that’s clearly a “politically-minded” position, which according to O’Kelly qualifies them as “xenophobic” and part of a “right-wing nationalist cadre”.
If a xenophobe is someone with an irrational hatred of foreigners, is there a term for someone with an irrational hatred of their own compatriots/culture?
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 06:57 PMThe independent is just a few sheets of bitchy drivel. If it was any more dumbed down it’d be a tabloid. Not that its much better than a tabloid. Its full of third rate journalists who don’t have a clue about whats going on around them never mind actually reporting wider worldly goings on. It’s probably just Tony Reilly’s anti-Irish agenda again
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 07:27 PMA stalwart of sport, Micheal O Muircheartaigh -… “ It is far more important to preserve the language than any of the national monuments. There is no comparison between even the greatest of national monuments and a living language,”
That’s a sentiment that is so obvious to me - but is a concept that many reject when it comes to languages rather than Giant’s Causeways etc.
Nevin - I would appreciate a considered reply to that.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 08:54 PMO muircheartaigh is wrong. There is a comparison. I’m in favour of sensitively preserving both. and the red squirrel, the natterjack toad, and dialects of ulster scots.Yep, welsh too.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 12:10 AMof course teaching the english language as one of many subjects during the week doesn’t break the total immersion rule.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 01:31 AM“I just read poor Chekhov’s article”
Perhaps you’ve also read the comment on the thread by Kloot who provides a first hand account of alienation from the language due to what he terms the IL Taliban.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 08:11 AMSteve,
Total immersion means forgoing the teaching of all other languages except the target language.
This is clearly established international best practice and a Mick has pointed out this has been established locally also.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 08:51 AMDewi, there has been much OTT comment and reaction; the headline and sub-headline writers have also contributed more heat than light.
My ‘expertise’ doesn’t extend to language teaching or preservation; my ‘revelations’ about the North Coast are linked mainly to an exposure of political sleaze and apparent planning corruption.
Coleman highlights a root of the problem that hasn’t yet been noted on this thread:
“But neither she nor her advisers are responsible for the root of the problems facing Irish. The first is what can only be described as a second plantation of the Gaeltacht whereby native Irish speakers are becoming strangers in our own environment.” [A second mentioned is hostility. I take it this hostility appears mainly in areas where little or no Irish is spoken and where some folks have been victims of discrimination ie where Irish is a requirement in a job application but not in the job itself]
I can see some parallels for local people on the Causeway Coast due to the influx of second home buyers. Portballintrae, for example, has become something of a ghost village in winter; all the small shops have gone and many of the locals have migrated inland in search of cheaper homes.
Total immersion may well be the best method but perhaps it requires more extensive research. For example, parents who select Irish language medium schools may have a greater interest in the education of their children than those who drop them off at the school gate and/or delegate total responsibility to the teachers.
Coleman also mentions the preservation and growth of Hebrew. Some of that can be put down to the threat to Israel as a state and to its ‘colonisation’ policies. Is it likely that Irish could or would follow a similar path, with or without the help of ‘Irish-America’?
My interest in Irish is restricted mainly to an understanding of placenames. I prefer the approach where all linguistic and other influences are considered and it’s sad to see the topic become a ‘battle’ between politically motivated and perhaps partially literate proponents.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 10:43 AMI couldn’t be arsed reading anything that compares those who love the Irish language with a band of ignorant and fascist Islamists who want to force people to adhere to a religion. To me that kind of comment you describe from Kloot immediately loses the argument - it’s like breaching Godwin’s Law.
My entire involvement with the Irish language has been about the issue of giving people the opportunity to benefit from the language. I do,however, believe that it should remain a necessary subject at the Leaving Certificate.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 01:35 PMConcubhar, I see that three languages at Leaving Certificate level are required to enter the NUI. If folks don’t wish to have this linguistic range or lack the ability are there other centres of third level education that will accept them?
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 02:44 PMNevin,
In Dublin, you can always grace DCU or Trinity who aren’t pushed about Irish. However Trinity requires Maths.Those born abroad and our northern brethren are naturally exempt from needing the stringent D in pass Irish to enter NUI institutions.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 03:03 PM“I couldn’t be arsed reading anything that compares those who love the Irish language with a band of ignorant and fascist Islamists who want to force people to adhere to a religion”
I don’t believe Kloot was talking about people who loved the Irish language for its own sake. I believe he was refering to those who “want to force people to adhere to a language”.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 03:15 PM
