Friday, April 11, 2008
Tories: an end to designation…
Owen Patterson, Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has an interesting piece (more at ConHome) out for the ten year commemoration of the signing of the Belfast Agreement, in which he recommends downsizing the administration, and the ending of designation as Unionist or Nationalist.
Mick Fealty @ 11:40 AM
aye Mick Tories know best, easy when you’re sipping a Gin and Tonic languishing in a St.James Park, London, Conservative Club, surrounded by union jacks.
That story in the Irish News was a better offering.Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:01 PMCleaned the man and left the ball standing perfectly still!
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:04 PMMmmm Percy should get out more. Tories likely to be the Govt in a couple of years (ie before next Assembly elections) - if you believe the opnion polls
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:15 PMPercy
you have again lived down to my expectations.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:19 PMIndeed Elvis. My only qualifier is that they won’t want to intervene on devolved matters any more than Brown wants to intervene on the issue of devolution of policing and justice. Any pressure they apply on this matter will need to come primarily from a ‘ground up’ project of their own here.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:19 PMMy English Professor scratched out “interesting” in one of my essays
and wrote “useless epithet”Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:20 PMMaybe Elvis but right now they delight in shouting stupid slogans from the sidelines. lets see if this becomes official party policy when or if they become the government
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:20 PMPercy,
Have you anything useful to say on the subject or are you just going to trade insults all afternoon. If the latter, your know where the door is.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:28 PMSuppose he has to say something from time to time. Often wondered if there is a nationalist lobby in the Tories (Tories for a United Ireland ? - can’t think of any good acronynms) No time time for the feckless feckers myself - but public school boys or no, they would still sell their grannys, mothers and water companies to get elected.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:35 PMYes Mick,
I don’t think the Tories have any business whatsover in commenting on,
or interfering with Irish affairs.
For a number of reasons: mainly historical.
That’s it really.Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:36 PMBetter out than in, I suppose. What reasons exactly? Patterson is in NI every week on official opposition business. talking to all of the parties. Considering everyone gets a spake (whether they have a clue what they are talking about or no) on Slugger, I’d like to hear why you think you can and he can’t?
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 12:53 PMwell it’d be great if he was on here debating, then he could be challenged by Sluggerites.
On substance I just find him utterly condescending.
Of course every countries gov’t should be like Britian’s wonderful parliamentary democracy he argues.
This from a party that has operated a divide and rule policy from the inception of the NI statelet; no wonder we have the segregation we have.Did the tories ever attempt to befriend the Republic? No.
They sent in the para to gun down marchers.
Have they told the truth about collusion? NoYes that’s all past, a new future and so on.
What’s needed now is not transformation of the institutions, but local politicians getting to grips with the complexities of the past, ie victims commission, and grappling with the challenges of policing and justice.
Maybe years down the line a more “normal” system could be proferred, but there’s an enormous amount of work to be done in the here and now before that’s even worth contemplating.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 01:12 PMSteve:
‘right now they delight in shouting stupid slogans from the sidelines’
You really dont understand political parties if you think a Shadow Secretary of State in the Opposition that is ahead in the opnion polls will open his mouth without either thinking things through or having agreement from the leadership.
Mick:
‘they won’t want to intervene on devolved matters’
I think you are mistaken there. The Conservative Party is committed to developing normal politics here in NI so while it would be nice to have the agreement of the local parties we are not Bound by them. If there was a reluctance there would be no comment.
Some may dismiss our chances of overcoming the Irish Nationalist and Ulster Parochials but someone has to have a vision that is greater than entrenching sectarianismPosted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 01:16 PMGiven that removal of designation would require ammendment to the excepted (ie only within Westminster competence) parts of the Northern Ireland Act it is perfectly reasonable that the man who may be SoS makes these helpful comments.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 01:29 PMBob - until you stop insulting those who consider themselves unionists you will not be overcoming anything. Designation is here to stay, simply because power-sharing becomes meaningless without it. That is not ideal - but that is a fact and the Tories will not change it any time soon.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 01:31 PMthe sooner an end is put to the designation thing the better. its stupid to have a constitutional issue colour the day to day functioning of government. you can see that the idea behind it was to keep people from worrying that themmuns would force usuns into something against our will etc. etc. but it just reinforces the backward tribal thinking.
we’re 10 years down the line, its time for people to get over themselves and get with the program.a majority vote is pretty much the way every democracy works isnt it? isnt it time to talk about implementing that? maybe 66% to carry a vote?
if the idea of the set up at stormont is to have parties working together, then splitting up before even starting to do any work is a backward step isnt it?
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 01:32 PMWhy would the Tories bother?
If they win the election and NI is still breathing on it’s 85-year life support better to spend the time and energy dressing other wounds first.
And if unionist parties don’t return a decent enough majority in the European elections, they might not be so eager for this in 2 years’ time.
Either way if it does happen we’ll get the:
after consultations between the two governments, it was felt that the removal of designation would speed up the ...
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 01:43 PMBonarLaw/Trimble
How about the unionists get themselves down to the Dail,
and play a full part in a fully functioning democracy.
Helpful?Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 01:43 PMChekov I am not insulting unionists - no unionist would want to maintain six county unionist parties nor to maintain designation. You are free to ‘consider’ yourself unionist if you wish however.
I love how your ‘fact’ about what the Conservatives will or will not do is in direct contravention of what the man who could will be SoS in 2 years is suggesting!
I will leave the last word to my fellow Conservative, Lord Trimble:
“there are those other issues which will not be devolved. Defence, foreign policy, taxation, public expenditure, the broad thrust of public and social policy are all the purview of Westminster, where all but two Northern Ireland MPs are double hatted as Assembly Members and many triple hatted as Ministers as well.
It may be interesting to see for how long the electors are content with largely absent representation - indeed to see for how much longer they remain content with a party structure that reflects an age which may now be ending.”
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 01:53 PMchekov, “simply because power-sharing becomes meaningless without it”
i see what you’re saying here i think. do you mean that sharing power between 2 unionist and nationalist blocks is power sharing? and if the system is changed to a majority vote then power sharing between the 2 blocks no longer exists? Id always considered power sharing to mean that parties with a large enough vote would get a ministry or 2, ie a share of the power. That would be ok for the day to day stuff. The unionist / nationalist thing was there to stop the dodgy stuff, you know the sort of thing.
i think it’ll probably give people the brown trousers, but eventually that 2 block idea of ‘power sharing’ will have to go. society is split into these 2 blocks by religon and that constitutional thing. thats an abnormal situation. normality will have to return were the society is not segregated. there would be 1 northern irish society with different opinions on lots of issues including the constitutional thing. theres no other long term way to run things, unless of course people want to stay in the dark ages.
you cant create one society by continuing to split it at the top end, ie stormont.Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 02:03 PM‘How about the unionists get themselves down to the Dail’
because they are afraid they would burst into flames upon crossing the threshold, or just an innate fear of being a minority, which they graciously forget they have britain to thank for.
As regards the ending of designations, just because the lines between Labour (new men...old boys) and the Tories(policy du jour) are increasingly blurred, does not mean that politics here is becoming the same.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 02:05 PMPercy
sooo not Trimble!
Chekov
“Designation is here to stay, simply because power-sharing becomes meaningless without it. “
Not so. Weighted majorities could be employed to endorse an Executive and to deal with Petitions of Concern to ensure power-sharing without the institutionalised tribalism of designation.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 02:07 PM“Chekov I am not insulting unionists - no unionist would want to maintain six county unionist parties nor to maintain designation.”
I do not want to maintain designation, I simply believe it is inevitable that designation will be maintained in the forseeable future. The vast majority of unionists vote for Northern Irish unionist parties. And there is an argument to be made that unionists need to accept the constitutional issue is settled and move on, but not in the offensive fashion we see it propounded on the Conservative NI blog.
http://conservativesni.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/orange-mcnarry/#comments
“I love how your ‘fact’ about what the Conservatives will or will not do is in direct contravention of what the man who could will be SoS in 2 years is suggesting!”
He explicitly states that the evolution of the institutions is ‘primarily for Northern Ireland’s politicians to determine’. Good luck in persuading the bulk of nationalists to abandon designation. It is not going to happen, whether Patterson is SoS in two years or not.
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 02:21 PMChekov you seem to think we should in some way ‘be friendly’ with unionist parties - they are our rivals just as much as the Labour - and you will see much more ‘offensive’ things about Labour on Conservativehome or Guido Fawkes.
The parochialism of what passes for unionism in NI is the biggest obstacle to binding NI into mainstream UK politicsOwen is nothing if not diplomatic and polite
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 02:37 PMSurely designation is a matter for the assembly?
Would the ending of designation require amendment of the NI Act 1998? Or could the assembly just take the decision and then get on with it?
Either way, clearly the Secretary of State should defer to the assembly on this?
Posted by on Apr 11, 2008 @ 03:04 PM
