Tuesday, July 03, 2007
To fall from favour
The Orange Arch in my home town of Hillsborough has very nice depictions of the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh proudly displayed. Last year I was traveling through Magherafelt with a colleague, and was quite surprised to see on their arch, not the Queen and the Duke, but William McCrea and Ian Paisley (the latter of course not being a member of the Institution). My colleague told me that he believed the arch was in fact owned and maintained by the local DUP. He now isn’t so sure, as this year he tells me the images of the politicians have been replaced by a picture of Dan Winter’s cottage and a verse of scripture. Seems an interesting year to change.
Michael Shilliday @ 02:09 PM
One thing NEVER changes Michael… the bigotry of The OO who clearly have no regard for the peace process and where it has brought us.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 02:50 PMand the above comment reflects the unilateral and total respect for other cultures that the peace process in founded on perfectly.
Making hateful comments about the other side is clearly the perogative of the other side and thats the only reason we need to make hateful comments about the otherside, the other side (who we respect as part of the peace process) are bastards for making hateful comments about us.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 02:54 PMI know that the arch in Magherafelt (do get it right, Michael) was opened, as it were, in 1986 by the then Lord Mayor of Belfast, Sammy Wilson. I was far too young to remember this occasion, but I’m told the local DUP flute band (we had one in those far off days) provided the musical entertainment. The arch in Magherafelt is quite nice, although the images of Paisley and McCrea did give it a cultish air, and gave the local Orange district a political overtone they have been tarnished with - McCrea is a member of an Orange lodge in Castledawson District, not Magherafelt. Certainly, the arch would appear prior to now to be the work of the local DUP, not Magherafelt District LOL No 3.
Alas, we can no longer erect the arch in my home village, a few miles north of Magherafelt - it’s too risky. It was very nice, a big image of King William crossing the Boyne in the centre of it, and the legend E II R above that. But at least it didn’t glorify two living politicians, one of whom isn’t even an Orangeman. As Michael says, a very strange year to alter the formula which has served well for two decades - can we expect Dr McCrea to be booed in Moneymore this July 12th, and Dr Paisley likewise at the Independent Orange Order celebrations?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 02:55 PMJaun or is it Juan,
So an organisation that institutionally hates catholics and catholicism and therefore bans catholics from being members is a shining beacon of inclusivity and not at all hateful?
Don’t make me laugh.
Me expressing an opinion which is that the above is wrong is not hateful is it?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:08 PMDidn’t realise Paisley not a member - he’s got his own order has he ?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:10 PMCorrect me if I’m wrong Daithi, but doesn’t the Catholic Church ban Protestants from membership?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:11 PMIan Paisley, as far as I remember reading, was a member in Sandy Row until the mid 60’s, when he was expelled from membership for non payment of dues. That is my current understanding, for which I will stand corrected if someone knows better,
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:13 PM“Ian Paisley, as far as I remember reading, was a member in Sandy Row until the mid 60’s, when he was expelled from membership for non payment of dues”
He resigned because of the OO refusal to discipline a senior member. He was not expelled.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:18 PMMagherafelt Unionist,
You raise an interesting question about booing McCrea. I usually go to his gospel service for a while on the 12th day. I do not approve of booing a religious meeting but I must admit I may not pause at his meeting in my walk up the town for chips at Moneymore this year.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:19 PM“But at least it didn’t glorify two living politicians, one of whom isn’t even an Orangeman”
First minister of the assembly Ian Paisley is not a member of the OO, but he used to be a member many moons ago.
The reason Ian paisley left the OO back in the 60’s was because Grand Lodge of Ireland, who were controlled in those days by the upper & middle class UUP Prods refused to accept his Doctrate of Divinity he received from the Bob Jones University in the US.
Paisley had applied to become a chaplin and Grand Lodge told him to get on his bike. He left with deep resentment and disgust against the Grand Lodge of the 1960’s.Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:28 PMMichael, the last I checked, the OO was not a freestanding religion. A fairer comparison would be the AOH. I’ve yet to see much support expressed on here for those particular dinosaurs
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:29 PMThree different explanations for why he left - strange it hasn’t been a bigger issue in his career.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:34 PM“Ian Paisley, as far as I remember reading, was a member in Sandy Row until the mid 60’s, when he was expelled from membership for non payment of dues. That is my current understanding, for which I will stand corrected if someone knows better,”
Michael, in the 1960’s the Grand Lodge refused to accept the Free Presbyterian Church as an authentic religious denomination. They therefore refused to accept Paisley as a chaplin.
He was not thrown out of his lodge for non fee paying.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:36 PMWillie Mccrea will be in Limavady this year, but in accordance with tradition will not be allowed to make a political speech.This means that there will not be the opposition that he might have expected otherwise.
I wonder if he will think back forty years to the fate of George Forrest, the local stormont Unionist MP who was attacked on an orange platform for being too liberal?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:43 PMIt’s a disgrace that there’s any arch up in Magherafelt....a majority nationalist town.
Or indeed any of the many flags that are up in the town.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:48 PMDarth,
Does that mean he is not going to be with us in Moneymore? or is it a county demonstration this year?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:50 PMSouth Derry nationalist
“It’s a disgrace that there’s any arch up in Magherafelt....a majority nationalist town. “
Indeed, and Northern Ireland is a majority unionist province. So where do we go from here?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:52 PMSouth derry Nationalist,
So when / where can flags of respective sorts be flown and when / where are they a disgrace?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 03:54 PMCurious
“The reason Ian paisley left the OO back in the 60’s was because Grand Lodge of Ireland, who were controlled in those days by the upper & middle class UUP Prods refused to accept his Doctrate of Divinity he received from the Bob Jones University in the US.”
“Michael, in the 1960’s the Grand Lodge refused to accept the Free Presbyterian Church as an authentic religious denomination. They therefore refused to accept Paisley as a chaplin.
He was not thrown out of his lodge for non fee paying.”This is all wrong I am afraid.
1. The list of acceptable denominations for chaplains in the OO was passed in December 1951. Paisley didn’t leave until 1962, 11 years later.
2. Paisley was awarded a doctorate by Bob Jones in 1966, four years after he resigned.
3. He resigned from the OO in September 1962 publicly citing the failure to discipline Sir Robin Kinahan.Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 05:32 PMOut of interest, discipline him for what? And do you have a reference?
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 05:45 PM1. The list of acceptable denominations for chaplains in the OO was passed in December 1951.
Can you name those acceptable denominations?
I bet you wont frind the Free P’s on that list or in the 1960’s because the Grand Orange Lodge considered Paisley’s church a weird cult then. Today many members of Grand Lodge are Free’p’s.
and all the upper & middle class UUP guys are all gone.Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 05:49 PMPapa Doc will have a nerve if he turns up to the Independent Orange demonstration after what he told the brethren last year. Let’s hope the rotten eggs are already being stockpiled. If I was the old Lundy, I’d suddenly find a prior appointment washing my hair that day.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 05:54 PMhttp://www.seekgod.ca/acccmeet.htm
Quote from this site:“Ian Paisley was once a member of the Shankill Road Lodge of the Orange Order and a lodge chaplain, but he resigned from the Order when the County Grand Lodge refused to expel Sir Robin Kinahan for attending a funeral service in a Roman Catholic chapel.”
Don’t know how robust that is.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 06:00 PMCurious
“ bet you wont frind the Free P’s on that list “
Never said you did find the Free P’s on it. It was highlighting your timing “1960’s” and thus purported cause and effect were wrong as the timings were out of sync.
MS
It’s all in Ed Moloney/Andy Pollak’s book.
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 06:09 PMNo longer astonished that the resign for his resignation is not widely discussed. Although it does show that the OO ai’nt quite as bad as portrayed. It allows its members to attend Catholic funerals !
Posted by on Jul 03, 2007 @ 06:13 PM
