Tuesday, March 18, 2008

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1. Ever the pragmatist is Mr Ahern. Relations with America are far more important than 20,000 illegal Irish.

   There is no hope of a deal for these immigrants so Bertie moves on.

   Also, Lenihan is proving himself to be a very smooth Minister for Justice after the histrionics of McDowell. Quietly going about his job, remaining constant, even if he steps on a few emigrant toes.

   At least the DUP can be happy that Ahern got a public promise out of Bush that he will do everything he can to ensure the May investment conference in Belfast will be well attended.

   Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 12:09 PM

2. Having spent most of last year in New York i met a lot of irish working in the bars there. Not one of these people told me that they where there legaly. Some where there for a change of life style, some visited friends and just stayed and some where facing criminal charges back at home.

   Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 12:29 PM

3. The Irish are not a special case. Kick them out. And kick all the illegal Chinese out of Ireland too.

   The Irish are always too a la carte with rules and regulations. A crime is a crime is a crime. America does not need these people and the irish can do without Chinese takeaways and over priced blow jobs. Just as it is always annoying to read about the special cases trying to avoid deportation from Ireland, so also must it be a pain in the butt/ass/arse for the Yanks to listen to the endless pleading from the selfish Irish. The Irish illegals are economic migrants and deserve no special favours.

   Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 12:32 PM

4. Can’t believe I’m saying this but… I’m glad Bertie went to Washington rather than resigned.  He said exactly what needed saying.  Yes, a lot of Irish people have made bad decisions but they have also been given ample warning of a change in US attitudes and should have governed themselves accordingly.

   Now that he’s said this he should go ahead and resign - go out on a moral high why don’t you.

   Posted by Mark Dowling on Mar 18, 2008 @ 12:56 PM

5. ‘The Irish are always too a la carte with rules and regulations. ‘

   A certain truth in that but not without reason . Too often in our history ‘rules and regulations’ favoured only the priviliged few and trod on the rights of the majority on this island . 

   Where there is law there is injustice . And often some laws are impossible to implement or can only be implemented at a cost which is greater than the presumed benefit to a society . Admittedly with 12 million illegal immigrants there can be no special deals for the Irish .

   ‘ A crime is a crime is a crime.’

   Brilliant :) Who would have thought it ?  But there might be better ways of tackling crime than locking up 1% of the population behind bars . The USA now has 3 million people in prison . And crime rates continue to rise and the murder rate remains the same ? The number incarcerated seems to have increased dramatically following the ‘privatisation’ of the prison system . Improved revenue streams for the prison ‘owners ‘ most certainly.  With the Health Insurance/Drug and Medical /legal fraternities sucking up almost 20% of USA GDP while 50 million Americans have no health insurance and American infant mortality rates the highest in the developed world one wonders who the ‘real ‘criminals are ! And JP Morgan is being awarded millions of tax dollars for stealing Bear Sterns while and private defence contractors milk billions from the same taxpayers in Iraq!  One wonders if there’ll be anything left in the pot for decent criminals to steal before the end of this abysmal administration !

   Carry on Bertie even if it’s up the Potomac and not the Liffey :)!

   Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 01:33 PM

6. “The concept of an amnesty,wiping the slate clean is just not on.”

   Lets hope Bertie is as definite and strong when it comes to OTRs and paramilitary amnesty here.

   Lets hope also that as American officialdom deals with those living in the in USA to ecape justice here those same Americans start to recognise their own contribution to nurturing and funding IRA terrorism in Northern Ireland and further afield.

   I get fed up reading contributions from the bleeding heart pro Republican Irish brigade lobbying for their mates in USA..Lets defend the poor Irish people.Give them a break.

   No mention of the invasion of Iraq by the USA. No mention of rendition flights.No mention of Guantanamo Bay torture. No mention of internment without representation or trial.

   T.Ruth

   Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 01:49 PM

7. Greenflag

   Stopping beating the dead horse. Bush isn’t running for office. The democratic congress has put the US in the ruinous state. Be a good pacifist and go help AIDs victims in Africa. Oh, wait..the US is the leader in that front..those bastards.

   Ruth..

   Those illegal Irish here, who would sell this country down the road for a drivers license, can’t get out fast enough..imho.

   Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 03:45 PM

8. Don’t get me wrong. If all the illegal Irish could be exempted and legalized, it would be a good thing. They’re not the ones who are stealing the US blind. But they Irish Democrats in the US are no friends of the illegal Irish, by opening the borders to everyone. The bed is made.

   Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 03:49 PM

9. The American comic Denis Leary, a native of Boston and son of two immigrants from County Kerry, provides an excellent exegesis of the intoxicating blend of self-congratulation and self-contradictions devoid of objectivity or logic that distinguish BfB’s contributions to this forum.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXTN3h-b9nU

   Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 04:15 PM

10. “Where there is law there is injustice”

    I am reminded (by today’s speech by Barack Obama) that the US founding fathers desired to create “a more perfect union” - not a perfect one.  Yes, there is injustice where there is law but there’s a lot of justice too.  What’s the alternative Greenflag?

    Ever since 2001 the issue of illegal aliens in the US has been front and centre. INS/DHS has raided trains coming back from GAA matches and departing Irish have been thrown in jail.  Still the illegals stay. 

    The cynical side of me says that Bertie’s property developer friends would be delighted to see a few hundred thousand emigrants return to fill up the empty houses they speculated into existence.

    “If all the illegal Irish could be exempted and legalized, it would be a good thing. They’re not the ones who are stealing the US blind.” - care to be more specific BfB?

    Posted by Mark Dowling on Mar 18, 2008 @ 04:19 PM

11. Pains me to say it, but I think in this instance Ahern said the wrong thing for the right reasons.

    There have been at least two instances in the last six months of young Irish men in their thirties dying because they became ill but were afraid to go for medical treatment in the US (because of their illegal status) until it was too late.  Both men are dead, when simple antibiotics would have saved them.  Many Irish families living illegally documentation have young children.  Young children who may, too, require emergency medical care, or have specialised education needs. Their vulnerability is unacceptable.

    It was the ILIR—not the likes of Trina Vargo or Bertie Ahern—that lobbied tirelessly and valiantly for across the board immigration reform. Proposals for a path towards legalisation including fines, back taxes, etc., were defeated, despite the impracticality of “enforcement only” schemes.

    Attachment to “enforcement-only” “build a wall” “build a bigger wall” etc. schemes is based more on emotion than practicality.  The US presidential candidates favouring “enforcement only”—Romney, Huckabee”—failed to capture enough votes to stay in the race.  Mccain, Obama and Clinton all favour a path towards legalisation for undocumented willing to pay back taxes, etc.

    A NY TImes editorial—“Border Insecurity”—calmly describes the infeasibility of an enforcement only scheme.  Here’s a link:\

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/opinion/04tue1.html

    O’Dowd was right to criticise Ahern’s use of the term “amnesty.” Nonetheless, will a path towards legalisation come soon enough that it would be responsible for the Irish gov’t not to urge its citizens living in the US without documentation, particularly those with young families, to come home?

    Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 05:07 PM

12. ‘Yes, there is injustice where there is law but there’s a lot of justice too.’

    Indeed .

    ‘ What’s the alternative Greenflag? ‘

    Without law there would be more injustice of course . But there is no point in passing laws unless they can be practically implemented . This applies not just to the USA but here to and indeed in every country where the ‘law’ is in theory anyway supposed to be for everyone .

    Bertie Ahern should establish a scheme with financial aid and housing subsidies to help repatriate those few thousand Irish who are in the USA illegally and who would want to return . 250,000 people left Ireland in the mid 1980’s .Had they stayed they would have cost the country hundreds of millions in welfare and unemployment benefits and probably sparked social unrest and political instability !  They were largely economic migrants . Many if not most have either become legal or returned to Ireland . There are some of course who would for personal and family reasons prefer to remain in the USA . For these people one can only hope that a new Immigration Reform Bill will address their situation .

    The Irish Government set up a scheme to help those Irish who were forced to flee Zimbabwe over the past decade . I don’t see any reason why they should not try to resettle the ‘illegal’ Irish who are still in the USA . I mean it’s not as if we can’t afford to ?

    Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 05:24 PM

13. The Irish Times front page piece this morning, coincided with iTunes popping up a 1970 Pete Seeger recording.

    Seeger had started with the old John F. Poole music-hall piece, No Irish Need Apply. He then linked to Big Bill Broonzy’s Black, Brown and White Blues, in an extended monologue:
    

    Well, of course, the Irish got Irish power and they solved [their] problems, and yet only solved it for themself. And I really don’t think that solving problems for yourself is good enough, to do the trick these days. They solved the problems for themself largely by taking care of Blacks.

    You know the stories of the riots of 1863. Irish people coming over here didn’t want to get drafted in the Army to fight a war as soon as they got off the boat. They came over here looking for Freedom; and there they were suddenly told ‘No, unless you can pay $300, in the Army you go’. The rich person could pay and avoid the draft. So they had the Draft Riots; and who did they take it out on? Black people. And mobs went up and down the streets of New York City, which at that time was mainly below Central Park. I think the main mobs went between 23rd Street and 50th Street, up and down, and they’d go into the houses, drag Black peoples out of their beds, and hang them from the lamp-posts. It was a horrible week—it lasted about a week. Finally, the Federal Government brought in federal troops; and the Draft Riots were over.

    But the majority of people in the mobs were immigrants just off the boat, very poor, and looking around for someone to take it out on. And—keep in mind—the Black people, many of them had been living here for over two hundred years.

    Inevitably, that set me to thinking.

    There is an uncomfortable similarity between the conflicts of 1863 and the special pleadi

    Posted by Malcolm Redfellow on Mar 18, 2008 @ 09:05 PM

14. The Irish Times front page piece this morning coincided with iTunes popping up a 1970 Pete Seeger recording.

    Seeger had started with the old John F. Poole music-hall piece, No Irish Need Apply. He then linked to Big Bill Broonzy’s Black, Brown and White Blues, in an extended monologue:
    

    Well, of course, the Irish got Irish power and they solved [their] problems, and yet only solved it for themself. And I really don’t think that solving problems for yourself is good enough, to do the trick these days. They solved the problems for themself largely by taking care of Blacks.

    You know the stories of the riots of 1863. Irish people coming over here didn’t want to get drafted in the Army to fight a war as soon as they got off the boat. They came over here looking for Freedom; and there they were suddenly told ‘No, unless you can pay $300, in the Army you go’. The rich person could pay and avoid the draft. So they had the Draft Riots; and who did they take it out on? Black people. And mobs went up and down the streets of New York City, which at that time was mainly below Central Park. I think the main mobs went between 23rd Street and 50th Street, up and down, and they’d go into the houses, drag Black peoples out of their beds, and hang them from the lamp-posts. It was a horrible week—it lasted about a week. Finally, the Federal Government brought in federal troops; and the Draft Riots were over.

    But the majority of people in the mobs were immigrants just off the boat, very poor, and looking around for someone to take it out on. And—keep in mind—the Black people, many of them had been living here for over two hundred years.

    Inevitably, that set me to thinking.

    There is an uncomfortable similarity between the conflicts of 1863 and the special pleading that is involved in an amnesty for Irish “illegals”.

    Then:
    —The Irish-Americans were attached to the Democratic Party. They first showed their collective strength in James Polk’s 1844 election as President. Polk was a Jacksonian, a believer in “manifest destiny” (which meant expansion across the continent), a slave-owner from Tennessee, and proponent of the Missouri Compromise (which retained slavery below the Mason-Dixon line) being applied across the rest of the continent.
    —The Irish nationalist priority was Repeal, restoring the Irish Parliament. To maintain Irish-American support and finance for Repeal, it was politically convenient to soft-pedal on Abolition.
    —Even before the immigration of the Hungry Forties, Irish had supplanted Blacks in many trades (notably in building canals and then the railroads), because Irish first undercut anyone else, and then became organised labour to protect their position. This gave them political clout. It also meant that Irish and Black interests conflicted.

    Now:
    —it is unreasonable to expect special treatment for the few thousand Irish when the issue (an emotive electoral one, too) is the many Latinos. Ahern is stating a harsh truth as softly as he can.

    Posted by Malcolm Redfellow on Mar 18, 2008 @ 09:11 PM

15. Apologies to all: my ISP is playing up. Ignore the earlier one of these two previous posts: I thought the connection had broken, and my post had evaporated into the electronic desert.

    Posted by Malcolm Redfellow on Mar 18, 2008 @ 09:14 PM

16. Susan

    A Democrat, right?
    Mr. Leary is from Worcester, not Boston. A good man though.

    Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 09:23 PM

17. “The democratic congress has put the US in the ruinous state.”

    That statement is so completely at odds with reality, it’s amazing.

    The United States is in the state it’s in now because it has had 7 years of Bush and company driving the place straight into a ditch, aided and abetted by the Republican clowns who were in control of both houses of Congress for all but one of those years.  That all of these problems started in January 2007 is, frankly, laughable.

    Posted by  on Mar 18, 2008 @ 11:12 PM

18. Kevin..

    You’re horribly misguided. Read a book. Democratic policies, liberal judges, misguided, delusional minorities running rampant, countrywide. Abortionist kill millions, try to protest in front a a clinic. The Marines have made it possible for these same people to exercise free speech. You wierdo, social misfits pick them to harass. Not China, Russia and the many other truly monstrous governments. You are childish cowards, worth nothing in the long run. You have ruined the public education, and destroyed generations of our youth. Womens lib will escort minors to abortions against their parents will, but not one word about Islamist persecution. Shallow, worthless, overeducated, elitist. Despicable.

    Posted by  on Mar 19, 2008 @ 12:11 AM

19. susan:  “It was the ILIR—not the likes of Trina Vargo or Bertie Ahern—that lobbied tirelessly and valiantly for across the board immigration reform. Proposals for a path towards legalisation including fines, back taxes, etc., were defeated, despite the impracticality of “enforcement only” schemes.”

    Wholesale legalization is equally impractical, insofar as it does nothing to correct the problem.  In the short-term, it will increase the problem, as border-jumpers seek to enter the United States ahead of the dead-line.  In the mid-term and long-term, it will simply be another iteration of the 1983-84 amnesty, where the same bargain—amnesty for illegals in exchange for securing the border.  The same result will occur—liberals, once the amnesty is passed, will forget about the other half of the bargain, the border-jumpers will continue and, in ten to fifteen years, we’ll be having the same conversation.

    Secure the border first and we can discuss it.  Not before.

    susan:  “A NY TImes editorial—“Border Insecurity”—calmly describes the infeasibility of an enforcement only scheme.”

    They are also on record for saying there was no famine in the Ukraine.

    Likewise, the facts on the ground—illegal immigrants leaving the country in the face of new enforcement schemes, would belie you faith in the infallibility of the NYT.

    Posted by  on Mar 19, 2008 @ 12:29 AM

20. *There have been at least two instances in the last six months of young Irish men in their thirties dying because they became ill but were afraid to go for medical treatment in the US (because of their illegal status) until it was too late.  Both men are dead, when simple antibiotics would have saved them.*

    Why do I find that extremely hard to believe? Do clinics check your immigration status before they issue penicillin prescriptions or something?

    I had the need of medical attention in New York once and I went to the doctor and received it. No problem, no id check, no immigration reports nothing, just medical treatment.

    Any source for this story?

    Posted by  on Mar 19, 2008 @ 02:52 AM

21. Harry, here are two news accounts for two separate deaths in the last few months I am aware of, one from the BBC and one from the Boston Globe.  Other sources, including the Irish News, are available through Google.

    Here is the BBC report on the death of 34 year old Thomas Garvagh of Derry, who died in Minnesota:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7256288.stm

    Here is a direct link to the Boston Globe piece of January 31, 2008 reporting the death of Galway’s Eddie Treacy at age 33, in Boston:

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/01/
    31/a_toast_to_an_irishman/

    Posted by  on Mar 19, 2008 @ 08:16 AM

22. My apologies for the mishap with the Boston Globe link; the Mac is acting up.  Let’s give that another go:

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/01/31/a_toast_to_an_irishman/

    My heartfelt condolences to the friends and family of both men.  Terrible, terrible loss.

    Posted by  on Mar 19, 2008 @ 08:21 AM

23. We rarely go far in these debates without shroud-waving. I have to say that the Boston Globe piece cited by susan @ 08:21 AM makes my teeth grate with its faux-Hibernicisms. A young man, in his arrogance, failed to recognise he had pneumonia. Sad, but it happens: I know of a similar case, with a young teacher in London, UK, whose life was saved only by having a biology-teacher girl-friend who recognised the symptoms.

    The other example, of Mr Garvagh, gets a full treatment from Shaun Harkin at Alexander Cockburn’s Counterpunch.

    Cockburn (for those who don’t know) is son of the late, great Claud and mimics a leftist libertarian posture. This frequently leads him, like Wile E. Coyote, into unsupported space.

    Harkin’s article develops from conventional wisdom:
    

    The St. Patrick Day parades illuminates how the US has benefited greatly from massive waves of immigration. The US could never have become an economic and military powerhouse without wave after wave of newcomers, ‘flooding’ its shores. Yes, immigrants, from every corner of the globe, and their children built America and continue to build America. The great wealth and power of America’s elites and the political establishment comes in no small part from the labor of immigrant workers.

    From there we have an attack (actually quite justified) on Rep Peter King (Rep, NY), he of “There are too many mosques in my country”:
    

    In the 1980’s, New York based IRA supporters, many of them undocumented economic refugees, were the ground troops for King’s political career. Today, King is a leading Know-Nothing, sponsoring some of the most draconian anti-immigrant legislation. The Peter King phenomenon is merely a microcosm of the sickness of the whole political and economic system.

    Blaming the whole “system” on King seems some hyperbole.

    From there Harkin develops an even more staggering artefact of an argument:
    

    Ireland’s political elite acted as the US’s hammer in the European Union, advancing a specific US agenda and advancing neo-liberalism in general. The Irish State is a neo-liberal regime modeled on and dependent on the US. In many respects, Ireland today seems like an economic colony of the United States. US investment has come at a price. The U.S. socialist journalist, John Reed, once said: “Uncle Sam never gives something for nothing. He comes along with a sack stuffed with hay in one hand and a whip in the other. Anyone who accepts Uncle Sam’s promises at face value will find that they must be paid for in sweat and blood.”

    Again, one has to question the relevance of a quotation, plundered from the Trots, from a man dead before the establishment of the Irish state. Even more bizarre is a testimony from the Irish battalion who fought for Mexico in the war of 1846-48.

    From there on, it is all downhill:
    —The Irish “illegals” are being punished because “a large majority of Ireland’s population is hostile to the US war on Iraq but the Irish government has refused to deny access to Shannon Airport to the US military. Even though Ireland is officially neutral, Shannon has become a key refueling facility for US war planes en route between the US, Afghanistan and Iraq. Ahern’s real legacy is that is no different from the disgraced Tony Blair.”
    —“the Irish Consulate ... [has] a great relationship with I[mmigration and] C[ustoms] E[nforcement]. Is the Irish Government doing all it can? ... the policy is not to challenge the neo-liberal masters.”

    Individual tragedies apart, there is some naive political machination going on here. Worse than that, a special, even hypocritical case is being argued for the few thousand Irish “illegals”, who (Harkin claims) experience “apartheid conditions”. The real issue is the ten million or so “illegals”, the overwhelming majority of Mexican origin.

    I look forward to the defenders of the Irish “illegals” concurring with Harkin that “Ireland has now become a beacon of economic hope for immigrants from all over Eastern Europe and Africa.”

    Posted by Malcolm Redfellow on Mar 19, 2008 @ 10:40 AM

24. I suggest everyone ignore BfB. He’s not good on matters of fact.

    I was in New York a few years ago and heard several stories of undocumented Irish who, in some cases, could not go home to attend the funerals of their parents or other family members who had passed away.  The stories about people dying because they were afraid to attend a doctor for fear that their immigration status would be exposed is what happens when this problem is taken to it’s natural conclusion. You’d have to be completely cold and heartless not to feel sorry for people in that situation.

    On the other hand, the USA has an immigration policy. The people who are lobbying on the matter of undocumented Irish are essentially arguing that people who are Irish should be permitted a legal bypass of the immigration rules; that they should come to the USA in their droves and expect to be granted full residency status. I do not see how this is reasonable. Anyone who migrates to the USA illegally is taking a risk. They should ensure that they appraise themselves fully of that risk. They should know that they could be caught and deported permanently at any time, and that they will have to live with that risk.

    A fully open-door immigration policy is not workable in any Western country; there just aren’t going to be enough jobs for everyone. Despite propaganda efforts by others in the thread, I do not think that is what is being proposed, but nonetheless it needs to be borne in mind.

    Posted by  on Mar 19, 2008 @ 11:22 AM

25. Malcolm Redfellow, Harry Flashman asked for news sources.  I provided them. Are you alright?

    Quite sensible post, Comrade Stalin.

    Posted by  on Mar 19, 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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