Monday, December 04, 2006
“there are too many schools in Northern Ireland”
The NIO minister Angela Maria Eagle seems enthusiastic about the 61 recommendations in George Bain’s Independent Strategic Review of Education while the BBC highlight the recommended raising of minimum enrolment levels for primary and post-primary schools, and that a third of schools - 440 in total - do not have the required minimum number of pupils. The Report is available here Adds Press Association report here
Bain highlights what he sees as the problem in the introduction and summary of his report[pdf file]
CHAPTER 3: NORTHERN IRELAND EDUCATION SYSTEM
9. DE is responsible for the central administration of education and related services in Northern Ireland, with the exception of the Further and Higher Education sectors, which are the responsibility of the Department for Employment and Learning. DE’s main areas of responsibility are pre-school, primary, post-primary, and special education; the youth service; the promotion of community relations within and between schools; and teacher education.
10. Inspection and monitoring of all education and training establishments is the direct responsibility of the Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI). In keeping with key government principles for inspection, ETI provides an independent professional assessment of the effectiveness of existing or proposed policy.
11. Responsibility for the delivery of day-to-day education services within the policy, strategy and procedures set by DE currently lies with: the five Education and Library Boards, including the Staff Commission for Education and Library Boards; the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools; the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment; the Youth Council for Northern Ireland; other grant-aided bodies, including the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education and Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta; and schools.
12. The system of schools in Northern Ireland comprises five main sectors: Controlled Schools – including Controlled Integrated Schools – Catholic Maintained Schools, Voluntary Grammar Schools, Grant-maintained Integrated Schools, and Irish-medium Schools.
13. The diversity of school type, the selective system of education, the existence of single sex schools, and the substantially rural nature of Northern Ireland largely explain both the relatively large number of schools that exist and the sizeable proportion of small schools. Although the range of provision is explained, and indeed justified, by the principle of parental choice, the inefficiencies manifest in the system need to be addressed as a matter of urgency.
And from the foreword to the report
5. At the beginning of the Review’s work, I thought it would be mainly concerned with the issue of “surplus places” and the economic case – cost-effective
provision that gives good value for money – for rationalising the schools’ estate. As the work advanced, the economic case for rationalisation remained important, but two other arguments for rationalisation became even more important: first, the educational case – access for pupils to the full range of the curriculum, to high quality teaching, and to modern facilities – and second, the social case – societal well-being by promoting a culture of tolerance, mutual understanding, and inter-relationship through significant, purposeful and regular engagement and interaction in learning.6. In short, the argument for rationalising the schools’ estate is not primarily about saving money – the savings, in any case, being difficult to quantify and, whatever their amount, being required for reinvestment in Northern Ireland’s schools – but about giving the children of Northern Ireland an excellent education that will benefit both them and the society in which they live. That is what the Review’s sixty-one recommendations are intended to achieve, and I commend them strongly to the Government and to the citizens of Northern Ireland.
The majority of his recommendations concern Planning: A Strategic Approach [recommendations 11-42] emphasising a local area based approach, some of those recommendations are
Planning: A Strategic Approach
11. The Education and Skills Authority should plan the schools’ estate on a local area basis, within a strategic framework of vision, policy, principles, and guidelines provided by the Department of Education.
12. Within the strategic framework established by the Department of Education, the Education and Skills Authority should have overall operational responsibility for the strategic planning of the schools’ estate.
13. Until the Education and Skills Authority has acquired the capacity to exercise its estate planning function, the Department of Education should act quickly and decisively to take forward area-based planning as soon as possible in the year 2007, with the full support of the relevant education authorities.
14. The Department of Education should establish a provisional timetable, to be refined and taken forward by the Education and Skills Authority, specifying target dates for the following key steps in setting up and implementing the area-based planning strategy: (a) the Department of Education’s strategic framework of vision, policy, principles, and guidelines; (b) the specification of local areas; (c) the review of local provision; (d) the initiation and conclusion of local planning; (e) the submission of area proposals to the Education and Skills Authority; (f) the finalised and approved area plans; and (g) the implementation of individual plans for the estate as a whole.
15. Future school building projects should be approved only after area-based planning is established, and previously announced capital projects that are currently underway should be reviewed, according to their stage of development, for their consistency with the area-based approach.
16. Local areas should comprise coherent sets of nursery, primary and post-primary schools, and, as appropriate, special schools, as well as accessible further education provision, and as far as possible lie within a single local council’s boundaries.
17. Planning should ensure that proposals for contiguous local areas are considered together, and that their interrelationships are identified and taken into account, before investment decisions are made.
18. Area-based plans should ensure that each area is served by sustainable schools that provide high quality education for all pupils and that, taken together, balance the expressed wishes of parents and the projected requirements of each school sector, with the cost-effective use of capital and recurrent funding.
and he makes a number of recommendations on integrating the education system
Perspectives on Integration and Collaboration
52. In undertaking its functions in relation to the planning of the schools’ estate, the Education and Skills Authority should be required to maximise opportunities for integrating education within a system of sustainable schools.
53. To encourage and support a more inclusive approach to integrating education, additional funding – in the form of (a) an enhanced unit of resource, and (b) special funding for particular areas of work such as staff development – should be provided to schools that are actively engaged in sharing with other schools, or a school that is developing an inclusive environment in recognition of the diversity of its pupils’ religious, cultural and ethnic backgrounds.
54. Either through new arrangements under the Review of Public Administration, or through a dedicated strategic forum, the Department of Education should help education stakeholders to discuss issues pertinent to integrating education and improving collaboration, promoting trust and mutual understanding, and working to develop collaboration and sharing.
55. The Department of Education should make clear that, in discharging its legislative duty in respect of integrated education, it is committed to facilitating and encouraging a variety of approaches to integrating education within a framework of sustainable schools.
56. The Department of Education should develop a comprehensive and coherent policy for Irish-medium education.
57. The planning for Irish-medium education should make use of a variety of feasible options capable of providing the accommodation and facilities that support a high quality of education through the medium of Irish, including:
• creating new sustainable Irish-medium schools through new builds, adapting existing surplus capacity in the schools’ estate, and transformation; and
• collaborating and sharing within the Irish-medium sector, and with English-medium schools, including the provision of Irish-medium units or streams in English-medium schools.
The full list of recommendations is available separately[pdf file]
Pete Baker @ 11:51 AM
“The Catholic school system has operated successfully in that regard for a long time, in different countries and different environments. The ethos is also important. At my school they were clearly that they were teaching people, and producing responsible results (though they were good too), ahead of getting the highest results.”
With alumni like G. Adams M. McGuinness S Kelly G Kelly how filled with pride must the schools with this important ethos feel
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 10:09 AMI disagree FD. Secularism is an ideology and you have no right to make it the sole state sponsored ideology. No right at all to suggest everyone’s taxes be spent on the type of education that suits you.
You do not own the state FD. you are one voice in a collective. Democracy remember. Your voice is valid. Your ideological monopolistic education is not valid.
Secularism starts off saying it is neutrally non denominational and ends up being anti religious. That ends up promoting the ideology of a minority.
I reject that ideology and i reject that democracy.
Live life the way you want FD and let others live life the way they see fit.
If your idea of democracy is to take the large
catholic system and force it to fit your narrow purposes then i sincerely hope you continue being frustrated.Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 10:26 AMLagan College manages to be an integrated school with a declared Christian ethos just by having more than one flavour of ordained staff on its pastoral team. Would it be acceptable to have some more protestant religious staff in the Catholic sector? The churches do after all agree the GCSE RE syllabus between them.
Regarding Secular ideology, I think a compulsory course in politics, philosophy and economics (perhaps built into the history syllabus) would be a healthy thing.
And not a soggy post-modern “what do you think kids?” thing. Something heavy on the Stoics and the abuses of utilitarianism that are common to these pages.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 10:26 AMThanks for the reply Kensei,
I understand the practising Catholic line - absolutely no problem with that - but I noticed that you ignored a whole paragraph of my submission regarding the formative years - life-long friendships - no integration in a violently divided society during this crucial time etc, etc. Have you any opinions on these matters? Perhaps not being from a religiously educated background I am missing something (as I said before) but surely as others have said the place for education on faith is at home and at Church - it is not necessary at school IMHO to produce a well-rounded, well-mannered, well-educated productive member of the society they live in - which should be the main objective of anyone’s school. I guess I just cannot understand the Catholic parent’s pro-segregationalist point of view.
Perhaps ironically this is a problem brought on by our very separate upbringings in two different environments!Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 10:29 AMSecularism starts off saying it is neutrally non denominational and ends up being anti religious.
How do they go about that? Anti R.E. classes? And what about the rights of the athiests who want their children to grow up without these lessons forced upon them, to make their own choices in their own time?
Most of the athiests I know have a lot of respect for the beliefs of others. Most of the people I have met who display a lack of respect for others beliefs are actually the religious people. The option that I don’t see is for people who would like a normal school with R.E. removed from the class room.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 10:45 AMDemocratic,
Some people see religion as a private nonsense that they are free to fantasise on their own, some people see religion as a reality and a way of life. Because school is a big part of life, during the formative years as you say, then to me and mine it should be part of school.
If people are concerned it ‘segregates’ as people say then i fully support other ways to bring people together. Sports, visits, residentual living arrangements, school trips, debating and other competitions. It can start by politicians acting civil towards eachother.
The teaching of the curriculum is agreed by everyone before hand anyway. There is nothing taught that is violently disagreed on. (except quietly perhaps by some - religion itself).
I would ask you to consider the fact that other countries in the past have had problems with catholic Vs protestant in their societies and those problems have dissapeared over the last 40 or 50 years. They still have schools run by religious groups with the state redirecting peoples taxes to the schools of choice for the parents. There is no problem there. Schools was not the problem, the cure came with the school system staying intact. It will in NI too.
I am suspicious of a minority anti religious view trying to gain a foothold in education over the heads of parents, in order to promote their view under the cloak of saying it will fix NI ills. And that anyone who disagrees is in favour of apartheid.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 10:58 AMKensei
Definitions of ideology from MW…. seems to apply to religion more than secularism.
a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical programI make no claims about religion for or against - I believe for those who wish to follow its teachings it has it place in churches and homes not in schools - that is not anti Catholic that is for all religions and beliefs.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 11:06 AM“I understand the practising Catholic line - absolutely no problem with that - but I noticed that you ignored a whole paragraph of my submission regarding the formative years - life-long friendships - no integration in a violently divided society during this crucial time etc, etc. Have you any opinions on these matters? “
Complicated issue not a lot of time. Briefly, there are pros and cons to everything - and I feel that if people are comfortable with their own identity they are more likely to be comfortable with others. Forcing people together in a fashion they don’t like is more likely to breed resentment and alienation, and things liek the school not teaching Irish / doing Gaelic / rugby whatever could become big issues. Additionally, school is not the be all and end all and I and most of the people I know have managed to form relationships with people of any faith and none regardless of our educational background, and it’s impact will be limited if we continue to lead largely separate lives outside school; a lot of people work in mixed environments for example. I also have a reactive dislike
Not against people mixing and think it should be encouraged; ideas like different schools pooling resources for some subjects are probably inherently good ones, for example.
“Perhaps not being from a religiously educated background I am missing something (as I said before) but surely as others have said the place for education on faith is at home and at Church - “
Protestant view. It’s never really been the way the Catholic Church has done things, and I don’t think forcing kids into Sunday school would help them. Hell, I’d have kicked back and resented it.
“it is not necessary at school IMHO to produce a well-rounded, well-mannered, well-educated productive member of the society they live in - which should be the main objective of anyone’s school. I guess I just cannot understand the Catholic parent’s pro-segregationalist point of view.”
No, it’s not necessary but I feel that Catholic schools are more likely to stick to it, because for most schools the pressure for results at all costs is very great. A different perspective gives them some kick back.
You have no need to understand my position either, I simply need you to respect it.
“Perhaps ironically this is a problem brought on by our very separate upbringings in two different environments!”
I can understand people’s desire to send their children to integrated or state schools.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 11:06 AMnmc,
then lobby for your own schools. Don’t force others to adopt your non religious system.
Religion is more than RE class.
Religion is a part of life for many. By legislatively removing it from a large part of life during the ‘learning process’ you are creating a culture without religion. You are creating a society where there is no role for peoples religion. It is purposely (by law) left out.
You are of course free to live that way. Others should be free to live their way. Everyone pays taxes.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 11:08 AM“
kenseiDefinitions of ideology from MW…. seems to apply to religion more than secularism.”
You weren’t arguing with me over it.
“a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program”But just as a point of order, it still falls under those definitions.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 11:09 AMIn the 12:06 PM, should be:
I also tend have a reactive dislike of government legislating to enforce things at such a low level (unless it’s the smoking ban, in which I’m all for it).
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 11:13 AMFrustrated Democrat,
“I believe for those who wish to follow its teachings it has it place in churches and homes not in schools”
That is your view. Bring up your children accordingly. There are others who do want their children educated in a religious environment. There are others who want an Irish language environment. Others want inter-denominational where several religions co-exist and are taught side by side.
All are equally valid under parental choice.
It seems you have put your preferred method ahead of the others because of your beliefs.
You are choosing for other parents.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 11:13 AMHi Abucs - I agree that anyone looking to use such an issue as integrated education to seek a foothold into power or the ability to indoctrinate
an anti-religious mindset to the young and impressionable would indeed be of very low moral substance.
I sincerely hope you do not think this of my motives which I swear to you are noble enough for my part. I also agree that integrated education is not the answer to all NI’s society ills (to be fair I never said anything of the sort)- but make no mistake - it would be a start on the road to forging relationships and understanding between Catholic & Protestant children that would not have an opportunity to engage each other in any positive way outside of their “own” communities. There have long been “cross-community” sporting days, debates etc, and they have never had much lasting impression beyond the few hours they last for once or twice a year. It was my experience that to be beat by the other side in such events was very disagreeable - obviously this is wrong.
As for residential arrangements well - I don’t think there is much to say about that that you don’t already know! To me the answer is a common ground - a common education in the core subjects which should theoretically be taught the same way in all schools irrespective of how you child worships God or not as the case may be. I myself hold friends from my schooldays still - all my own sort unfortunately for what I ultimately believe to be not only the problem of the poisonous society that NI has often been but also the problem of segregation during the formative educational years. I hope you understand me better than I can understand you in this regard but it is quite obvious our thoughts on this matter are worlds apart. As for the examples of other countries - to be honest for me to offer an opinion you would have to be more specific.
Regards.Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 11:22 AMHi Kensei,
I see we aren’t making much headway toward a middle-ground - I still remain completely convinced on my views - as so obviously does your good self - please do not take offence as I am sure you mean’t any yourself but the line -
“I feel that if people are comfortable with their own identity they are more likely to be comfortable with others. Forcing people together in a fashion they don’t like is more likely to breed resentment and alienation, and things liek the school not teaching Irish / doing Gaelic / rugby whatever could become big issues.”
This is a mindset I cannot bring myself to respect this as a legitimate reason to maintain segregation (especially the sport as this could be easily overcome by offering all activities the pupils express an interest in like the UU’s)
For myself I think the reverse - figuratively putting Protestant & Catholic children into the same boat will bring out teamwork, alliances and friendships which can last outside and long after school has ended - but then perhaps I am an optimist. Democracy however seems to favour your point of view Kensei - and I do realise my views constitute a minority - and that I can respect - (though I don’t have to like it!)Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 11:50 AM“I see we aren’t making much headway toward a middle-ground - I still remain completely convinced on my views - as so obviously does your good self - please do not take offence as I am sure you mean’t any yourself but the line -”
The middle ground is parental choice and respecting others decisions even though you don’t like them.
“This is a mindset I cannot bring myself to respect this as a legitimate reason to maintain segregation (especially the sport as this could be easily overcome by offering all activities the pupils express an interest in like the UU’s)”
The point I’m trying to drive at is that integrated education isn’t a panacea and problems won’t disappear simply by doing it. Also, I do believe that people should not be forced together, because it is almost always counter productive. I believe people need to be secure in their own identity and themselves and for shared spaces to exist. So I am happy for integrated education to exist for people who want it, happy for its expansion if the demand is there, but against making it mandatory.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:00 PMOh, and just a point: if you want to genuinely sell integrated education the way to do it is make those schools world class, not just in results, but in ethos and activities. Demonstrate it works, rather than an ideological debate.
One thing that can be said for Catholic education here regardless of anything else, is that in general, it’s pretty good in a lot of respects. If it was shit people would send their children elsewhere, ethos or not.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:06 PMLet’s keep it civil Kensei eh!
“I believe people need to be secure in their own identity and themselves and for shared spaces to exist”
Sorry ain’t buying that as a reason why kids shouldn’t mix at school.
You’re right about integrated education not being the solution to all NI’s ills - I believe I covered my views on this in my post to Abucs so i’ll not trouble you with having to read it again.
Lastly I will repeat this line from my last post as you obviously missed it the first time.
“Democracy however seems to favour your point of view Kensei - and I do realise my views constitute a minority - and that I can respect - (though I don’t have to like it!)”Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:14 PMi have no reason to doubt your noble intentions Democratic. I don’t know you, but i take your word for it and apologise if you felt i tarred you with that brush.
I agree that a lot of the problems of NI are two different identities. Some would say two different religions, but i think “identities” is closer to the truth.
I do agree that in a localised area a common school may help to forge a common identity and thus by extension solve the identity problem. I think personally that creates other problems and i am not in agreement with the identity that i think will be created.
The overseas examples i am thinking of are London and Australia. I had many relatives who went to London and they tell me of the fights and the suspicions and fragmented societies. This was mainly due to a large influx of Irish Catholics. But the experience of my uncles and aunts are different to my cousins. A catholic school is simply a catholic school now, not an invasion of territory.
I am in Australia now and have learned that again 40 or 50 years ago there was a definite Protestant / Cathoilic split. It was to such an extent that the Liberal party was mainly protestant and the Labour party mainly (but not entirely) Catholic. Now that seems like a million miles from reality thank goodness.
Although many think that the labour party now has the secularist anti religious identity.The leader of the Labour Party now is a guy called Kevin Rudd. He deposed the previous leader yesterday. Previously Kevin Rudd has said that there is a feeling within the labour party that people have drifted away from the party because it has become too secular (read anti religious). Kevin Rudd is a practising Christian and this has caused some stir in the left leaning secular government broadcasting sector.
The government sponsored tv and radio attracts a left leaning anti religious group that use their power to promote a certain world view.
These broadcasters made a big issue that hey this guy is a Christian, and he means it. They basically wanted him to say that his religion would have nothing to do with leading his (their)party. i.e. they promote the outlook that religion is personal fantasy and has no place in the real world.
The Liberal prime minister here has chided the state school board that parents are choosing private (religious) schools in large numbers in preference to state schools. He has said that the reason they are choosing it is because parents feel the people running the state schools are promoting their own ideology. It is left leaning, anti religious, politically correct, anti government and teaches an apologetic form of western historical culture and that they do not teach manners and responsibility.
This was in response to the head of education in one of the states criticising his teachers that they obviously weren’t teaching the students correctly because they were coming out of school and voting for the government.
In my view a secular education, politics and government sector want to promote their own view. Nothing wrong with that, but i think nobody should be under any illusion that this is what happens. And people have a right to say no.ok have to go now. Best wishes.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:15 PMAs a practising atheist I’d like to point out that there are no ‘secular schools’ in the NI system. I wish there were!
The State system was set up based on the old church run system as an avowedly Protestant system which is why the Church of Ireland has the right to appoint governors to the school boards, The Catholic system was subsidised by the state for the purpose of making sure that no Catholic would have the opportunity of interfering with the education of Protestant children as the Minister made clear at the time (look up ‘discrimination’ in CAIN before you call me a liar, please) and the ‘Integrated’ sector is multidenominational rather than non-denominational.
Let the parents decide is my credo, with the addition that where children could be exposed to bullying etc because they are in a minority we should take special care to provide facilities for them.
The system whereby the parents of a state school can decide that it should join the integrated sector is good. Let’s tackle all our problems in a similar democratic manner.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:16 PMHi lib2016 - Would I be right in taking from your opening line that you would be theorically agreeable to a democratically agreed secular educational system in NI where Protestant & Catholics could be educated together in a religiously neutral environment free from theological confrontations? - I too think this idea sounds great - however for various reasons (some honourable - some not so) many don’t.
However as a bye though I don’t see why it was necessary to infer that the existing Catholic education catchment owes it existance to Protestant bigotry even IF it is true - is there some sort of dig there at someone.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:35 PMSorry I think “unpleasant” was meant to read the “Bigo—-” word.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:39 PMDemocratic,
I’m agreeable to parents having the right of acess to the type education they desire provided it satisfies a democratically agreed curriculum. That would involve a multiplicity of choices.
As for having a dig at someone - there has been a history on this site of people advocating the enforcement of the present sectarian state system on everybody. That is the sort of thinking which led to the present mess. We should endeavour to provide for democratic choice at as local a level as possible.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:47 PMHi Lib2016,
I must admit to not still being completely sure where you stand on my question - but I acknowledge the pro-choice thrust of your post - thanks for taking the time to respond.
Regards.Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:54 PMIsn’t everyone missing the elephant in the room, which is that there are too many schools and not enough pupils - the title of the thread by the way.
If your village has a state school and a catholic school and not enough pupils for either; which is to close? And how does the survivor change to meet the needs of the new pupils?
I would suggest that the survivor cannot remain a state/catholic school and unless someone knows of another third way, it will have to go integrated.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 12:59 PMDK,
just a suggestion. As I am unaware of the inner Northern Ireland education system, excuse it if it doesn’t or couldn’t apply.If schools have to close, as it seems they do, it would make sense to close them.
How about telling those that run state schools that x out of a list of y schools have to close to save money while telling the Catholic run ones that x out of a list of y also have to close.
Then they can decide which ones have to go. If there is a successful Catholic school in a nearby village for example, they can run a bus each morning from the village which loses its school.
If both schools in a village want to be integrated, let them go integrated.
In the Republic, you have parental choice but that doesn’t mean you have the right to the school of your choice on your doorstep.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2006 @ 01:40 PM
