Tuesday, February 10, 2009
“the time has come for these people to drop the name Sinn Fein”
More evidence, I’d suggest, of an ongoing “bid to exert control in nationalist areas in particular..” Via Newshound. Yesterday’s Irish News carried a report of a man forced to wear a placard claiming he was a house burglar and a thief and stand on a traffic island on the Andersonstown Road. The Irish News also reported Republican Sinn Féin’s criticism of last week’s briefings by those anonymous “senior republican sources”.
“We believe the time has come for these people to drop the name Sinn Fein and no longer claim to be the republican movement.”
[How about Provisional Sinn Féin? - Ed] Adds Related news?
Pete Baker @ 10:01 AM
FACT: RSF linked to CIRA. CIRA a criminal conspiracy involved in extortion, drug dealing, robbery and general violence against nationalist residents of west Belfast.
FACT: youths made to stand with placards as a result of intimidation by group of dissidents calling themselve Oglaith na Eireann - also involved in tiger robberies, initimidation and general crime for personal gain. Also, Pete, you seem to have missed the very real FACT that this same group of people are involved in punishment beatings against those whom they have a person grudge with.
Still you got the name of the road in west Belfast correct. Funny, I can’t see the post about similar incident on the Shankill.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 11:37 AMI would think Sinn Fein “controls the nationalist areas” by way of the popular vote.
Doing RSF’s bidding now?
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 12:07 PMWhy are people thinking this is an anti-PSF thread? It seems to me fairly clear that Pete is citing reports linking the dissidents to the attempts to assert control nationalist areas through the use of violence, and, I would think, linking this to RSF’s demands that the Provos drop the name, which would leave them in sole control of it. But that’s just how it seems to me.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 12:33 PMThis is a shameful act, it implies that this is a community that is beginning to turn on itself. If there is an insurgency taking place there is an argument to be made for punishments shootings etc, as the State targets low level criminals as informers. However today no republican group is involved in a serious insurgency; and to pretend otherwise by carrying out acts like this is as I said above shameful.
CIRA’s recent attempt to ape J W Bush’s infantile ‘war on drugs’ was pathetic and makes one wonder about their grip with reality. Far from working, the prohibition of illicit drugs is one of the most destructive government policies ever implemented by a western State, it is on a par with the equally ridiculous ‘War on Terror.’
Not least because it means targeting ourselves, for it is our children, our friends, our neighbors, etc, who take illicit drugs, if Prohibition worked, British, Irish and US prisons would not be full of people who are incarcerated for drug related crimes.
Low level crime like dealing and burglary are often troublesome and traumatic, but they are a societal problem and must be dealt with as such. It is for the whole community and their elected representatives to deal with this problem, it cannot be left to a bunch of individuals who believe they have almost a god given right to intervene due to a historical event that took place in 1918.
If ever there is a case to reread the Pastor Niemoller poem, this is it.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 12:36 PMPete,
excuse my ignorance in these maters - but who is the “ED” as in “[How about Provisional Sinn Féin? - Ed] “
Is Mick editing bits or are you adding extra bits in and then signing it as ed rather than yourself?
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 01:03 PMI just wish RSF would stand for election - oh I forgot they did at the last assembly elections and were disgraced in WB.
Why dont they just pack up and go away?
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 01:19 PMThis is designed to be a support winning popular action. The truth of the matter is that burglary, something I might add that many people experience at some point in their lifetime, is a traumatic and invasive experience. It’s not on a par with other crimes, like dealing drugs or vandalism. The majority of people I know seem to think, accurately or otherwise, that anti-social and criminal behaviour is on the increase in the west, with a marked increase in home invasions.
The PSNI, regardless of political views, are fairly useless at clearing up crime - this may be down to a number of factors (cooperation, competence, the justice system generally speaking). So when the CIRA do something like this it is in my opinion designed to garner support in the community, and in my opinion to a certain degree it will work. Many people I know long for the days when the IRA controlled policing and crime was perceived to be lower than it is now.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 01:22 PMWhy has everyone jumped to the conclusion that this was the work of the CIRA. WB’s reliable grapevine seems to relate it to the ONH faction.
Anyhow, is it an attempt to control West Belfast? I find that a bit absurd based on the primae facae. A young fella up to no good gets to be held accountable for his actions in an embarassing spectacle in front of is neighbourhood peers. Will it out him off future antisocial actions? Possibly.
Is this type of justice the panacea for antisocial behaviour in deprived areas? No
Is this an attempt to take control? wise up.
Incidentally…is Grassy Noel going to provide evidence for his facts? Who or what is his source of infomation?
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 01:55 PMIs Mick editing bits or are you adding extra bits in and then signing it as ed rather than yourself?
Obviously I can’t answer your question Sammy, though I’m fairly sure this jocular form of editorial intervention originated in the ‘Letters Page’ of the Beano back in the mid-70s. Indeed.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 01:56 PM“If there is an insurgency taking place there is an argument to be made for punishments shootings etc”
....... so you think it’s OK to shoot 15 year old car thieves because you think the police might recruit them as sources
Aside from the morality and logic in that, what the hell use do you think a 15 year old glue head would be likely to be to the police?
I agree with most of the rest of your post but that bit leaves me cold. Did you really mean that?
Didn’t PIRA / PSF always claim that they shot them as a service to the community because of their anti-social activity? So of course that justified it?
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 01:59 PMParading them like this seems superficially attractive but what if little Liam or Sean standing with his placard didn’t actually do it but was just out of favour with those with the guns or fingered by someone with more to hide?
A Catholic friend once told me that he had had a problem and went to see his local Councillor. He lived in an area that wasn’t too bad for crime but his children’s lives were being plagued by some youths who included a son of a local PIRA member. This lad was completely out of control and in my friend’s naievity he thought that the local ‘restorative justice’ people might help.
‘Sorry’ he was told. ‘Get real. That’s not the way the system works. Best we forget we ever had this conversation.’ So that’s just what he did.
Either we have a system based on justice fairness and the rule of law or we just give in to the thugs - from whatever side.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 02:09 PMEither we have a system based on justice fairness and the rule of law
I agree, as do 90%of my neighbours. Unfortunately the 1 in 5 clearup rates of the PSNI do not inspire confidence that they’re about to kick crime from the streets of West Belfast.
The reason this kind of action will generate some support is that there are plenty of people who hear of another pensioner in the news, or another family terrorised who end up thinking ‘these bastards need shot’.
If we could get to the point where the police were empowered/prepared to take on crime in West Belfast then things might change, but we are by no means anywhere near that situation at present. It’s a criminal nirvana at the minute because you can do what you like, and at best stand a 20% chance of being taken to court, where you stand an even smaller chance of being punished in any meanigful way.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 02:22 PMHalfer,
Facts all of them:
CIRA involved in buring a digger at Casement park because contractor wouldn’t pay protection money.
CIRA levying drug’s tax on dealers in west Belfast (that one via the old “reliable grapevine” and senior republicans)
ONH, or people representing them, went into the home of an aging former prisoner and demanded money that they claimed his son (whom they alleged was a drug dealer) had hidden in a chair. Reported in newspaper.
ONH/CIRA/INLA all involved in assisting loyalists in drug trafficking and selling them arms.
Source: The Irish News
Like I said, a criminal conspiracy.
what was that Johnson said about patriotism?
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 02:38 PMcynic
Please read my post, what I wrote was,
“If there is an insurgency taking place there is an argument to be made for punishments shootings etc, as the State targets low level criminals as informers.”No where did I write that I supported punishment attacks in the past and I made it clear I am against them today.
Sadly in the past the police ‘have’ made use of young criminals as informers, either by blackmailing, bribing or threatening them; and I see no reason why this would not happen today, as this is still a common tactic of police forces all over the world.
They use these people to spy and inform on their own and to act as their eyes and ears within communities and places the police have difficulty in going into. So yes, a 15 year old glue sniffing thief can as an informer be a valuable asset to an unscrupulous police officer.
I’m told there is no lower age limit on police registering informers, which if true is very worrying.
regards
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 03:07 PM“CIRA involved in buring a digger at Casement park because contractor wouldn’t pay protection money.
CIRA levying drug’s tax on dealers in west Belfast (that one via the old “reliable grapevine” and senior republicans)
ONH, or people representing them, went into the home of an aging former prisoner and demanded money that they claimed his son (whom they alleged was a drug dealer) had hidden in a chair. Reported in newspaper.
ONH/CIRA/INLA all involved in assisting loyalists in drug trafficking and selling them arms.
Source: The Irish News
Like I said, a criminal conspiracy.”
Sheesh the plot thickens….....Thank god gossip isn’t admissable as evidence.
So whats the point of all this hearsay and speculation Noel? Does it add anything to this disussion? Is it about separating “Good republicans” and “bad republicans”?
Or wait a minute…....are you profiling yourself for a job at the Sunday World?
I dont have any hard evidence for me to believe anything that you say about any of the above groups. You seem convinced, so maybe you have some hard/fast proof. If thats the case why don’t you act like a “good republican” and hand it over to the PSNI. Or are you afraid of being laughed out of woodbourne?
Now, back to the discussion. The PSNI are rejected by many in areas suc as WB because, like or not, people still distrust and hate them for a multitude of reasons. One of those reasons being their dire record at actually doing what police services usually do; tackling crime. (16% success rate)
When communities feel the impotence that this justice vacuum presents, they look through the historical lens that Mick alluded to and paramilitary groups then carry the burden of taking such actions. Its a no win situation really. Paramilitary groups have no real chance in winning wars against drugs or anti social behaviour but they can help give an emotional balance to victims in the communities by making an example of young burglars in the way they did at the weekend.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 03:13 PMas someone who has been affected personally by crime(broke into twice)and one who has seen the inadequacies of the PSNI and SF`s response….I for one passed this person holding the placard and said well done to whoever made this alleged thug face the consequences of his actions….
This won`t sit with those in this forum with no personal knowledge of West Belfast but another thing that will get mighty on this irrelevant forum mad….
is, I haven`t met one person on the street who didn`t see this as a welcome development…
The community has had enough of these thugs, enough of SF`s platitudes, enough of the PSNI letting these £10 touts run amok and had enough of the stoopies lecturing…
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 03:45 PM“Low level crime like dealing and burglary are often troublesome and traumatic”
How would you know? I have suffered this and know the consequences, the fear, the despair…the inability to understand how these thugs get away with this…
Bleeding heart liberal wishy washy theorizing without any firsthand experience, is utterly pointless and irrelevant..
You would probably try and understand these thugs, comfort, pamper them, send them on foreign holidays to sort out their issues….
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 03:51 PM“We believe the time has come for these people to drop the name Sinn Fein and no longer claim to be the republican movement.”
If this happened, wouldn’t it be fitting if 10 years from now Gerry Adams denied ever having been a member of Sinn Fein?
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 04:04 PMGood for them…the kid avoids a record, the state avoids paying costs to charge/process/jail him, he feels shamed to possibly stop his way
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 04:35 PM“Low level crime like dealing and burglary are often troublesome and traumatic”
How would you know? I have suffered this and know the consequences, the fear, the despair…the inability to understand how these thugs get away with this…
veritas
Please, do you feel that you are the only person who has been a victim of a crime? Show a bit of respect.
One does not have to be what you call a bleeding heart liberal to understand the dangers of street corner ‘justice’.
There are bigger issues at work here, for one does not have to be a rocket scientist to understand only the stupidest low level criminals, with absolutely no pull, ends up standing on a street corner with a placard around their neck, with what amounts to the words ‘kick me I am an idiot’ written on it.
Will the son of an ONH man end up on the street corner, or one of those bankers we have all come to love? No, I think not.
Rough justice is never good justice and can only be excused in extraordinary times and only then with great thought. Happily we are not living through such times.
If the ONH has the power to make this poor sap stand on the street corner, what is to stop them telling him to go to the nearest PSNI station and confess all?
No, what is occurring here is propaganda by deed, and as I said it is shameless as it plays to our most base instinct, revenge, The ONH need to think again.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 05:22 PMFrom a United Ireland to a Traffic Island-the ever-diminishing returns of the Republican Movement.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 07:02 PMPeople in working class communities will and do support actions like this as they see it as hoods who are terrorisng those ncommunities being shamed. The PSNI response to crimes particularly drug related crimeinality is almost non existant.
People in these communities do not trust the PSNI and are seeing day and daily a complete lack of effective policing. Therefore if SF continue to urge people to support and join this organisation, then SF and its politics will become as ineffective as the PSNI record on solving crime.
Wtih out getting lost in conpiracy theories it seems a good way to make SF lose political support. Let comunities go to wreck and ruin and sit back and watch SF run around in circles urging thoise affected by crime to support and join those who allowing it to happen.
A securocrats plan if there ever was one
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 07:05 PM“You would probably try and understand these thugs, comfort, pamper them, send them on foreign holidays to sort out their issues….”
So do we get into the whole nature/nurture thing on this? Perhaps it’s time some of the elected representatives for West Belfast sorted themselves out to see what the problems actually are when it comes to crime and the causes thereof…
Whatever political muscle these people exert, it’s clearly not working. I DID live on the Falls for a few days each week for a couple of years. It’s not the same as being a “full-timer”, but you don’t have to be stupid to see that many of the problems in the area go back to the underlying tone in the Andytown News/Gerry slugfest we had a wee while back.
Mick wrote: “No, what is occurring here is propaganda by deed, and as I said it is shameless as it plays to our most base instinct, revenge”.
Sure, it’s not Kristallnacht - but it’s not long til it starts to go down that path.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 07:39 PMThe idea that ‘dissidents’ are involved in various criminal enterprises while s.f and their ‘ira’ are not is patently ludicrous. s.f’s ‘ira’ wrote the book on such enterprise, are still up to their necks in it. o.k, i can’t speak about belfast but i know enough about sth armagh to know that the terms ‘criminality’ and ‘mainstream republican’ are not too far divorced. want a load of bad drink? see an ira man, some washed diesel, same thing, hijacked goods, aye, and on it goes. come on down and see the electric gates capital of ireland (while s.f cry about the most deprived wards in the country)
these people are gerry a’s ‘good republicans’.
and, of course, if you want someone battered to death apply to the same people.Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 08:55 PMThe idea that ‘dissidents’ are involved in various criminal enterprises while s.f and their ‘ira’ are not is patently ludicrous. s.f’s ‘ira’ wrote the book on such enterprise, are still up to their necks in it. o.k, i can’t speak about belfast but i know enough about sth armagh to know that the terms ‘criminality’ and ‘mainstream republican’ are not too far divorced. want a load of bad drink? see an ira man, some washed diesel, same thing, hijacked goods, aye, and on it goes. come on down and see the electric gates capital of ireland (while s.f cry about the most deprived wards in the country)
these people are gerry a’s ‘good republicans’.
and, of course, if you want someone battered to death apply to the same people.Posted by on Feb 10, 2009 @ 08:57 PM
