Saturday, November 22, 2008
The ‘Scots-Irish’ in America
Professor Brian Walker from the School of Politics at Queen’s University Belfast has a piece published in the Irish Times today about the Scots-Irish in America.
He points out that over half of some 40 million people who gave their country of origin as Ireland are actually of Protestant descent. He also points out that many were Ulster Presbyterians, descending from Scotland in the 17th-century:
“To explain this situation attention now focused on the Scots Irish. The first waves of emigrants from Ireland to America in the eighteenth century consisted largely of Ulster Presbyterians, numbering about a quarter of a million people, who were descendants of 17th-century Scottish immigrants to Ireland. Due to their early arrival and thanks to a multiplier factor, it was argued, their descendants made up a major part of those in America with an Irish background.”
The article offers interesting reading and shines a light on the extent of immigration by Protestants, of Scotish origin, from Ireland to America. I recalled when reading the article the story from the Ulster-Scots musical ‘On Eagles Wings’.
Andrew Charles @ 02:42 PM
I thought the single combat thing was on the cards after yesterday’s haka….
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:18 PMmalcolm redfellow ,
‘The number who took up farming as a means of livelihood always remained low.’
Not in any small measure due to the ‘famine experience’ I should think . Land either ownership of or access to had been seen as the only wealth and means of survival in early to mid 19th century Ireland . Many of those who fled to the USA had seen this survival means collapse with disastrous consequences for themselves and their families . Thus most opted for the cities. Not a few were co-opted into the Union Army in the Civil War and found themselves elsewhere when said war ended .
Marshall County ? I can’t recall the name of the county I was in . All I can remember is that it was close to the West Virginia and Virginia State line in Virginia.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:21 PMOn a personal note, family folklore has it that David Crawford, my great-great-grandfather was a Protestant from County Tyrone in Ulster.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:24 PMStrange phenomenon is that the Orange business never really took of in US whereas in Canada was a real political factor in living memory. My sister has a wonderful theory that the current religosity of the body politic in the US is a direct consequence of religious non-conformism of the largest body of the European migration pre 1900 odd…
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:40 PMExile you are wrong americans do not change their religion like their underwear instead they wear it like their finest suit.
Religion is something they cover themselves with for public consumption, sort of like orangemen and bowler hats
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:42 PMUSA @ 05:24 PM:
As I’m sure you are well aware, it’s easy to scan the 1880 US Census. For example, familysearch.org immediately throws up no fewer than 17 Irish-born “David Crawfords”, starting with:
David Crawford, born in Ireland, aged 33 (so born about 1847), a carpet-weaver;
his wife, Mary, aged 38, “keeping house”; and
their son, James Crawford, aged 8, born in Pensylvania.They were registered at Philadelphia.
Severe health warning: that family tree lark can seriously damage one’s leisure time.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:45 PM‘Severe health warning: that family tree lark can seriously damage one’s leisure time.’
Here’s a list of some names from US Civil War Records which should may raise some interesting questions as to the ‘dispersal’ of the Irish and Scotch Irish throughout the new Republic . I picked the names as somewhat’representative ’ of those of Scotch Irish and Irish derivation with some in betweens and English and Welsh . U is for Union and C for Confederates .
Campbell U -6,602 C-4,016
Murphy U -6,601 C-2,519
Sullivan U -4,093 C-1,145
Crawford U- 2,701 C-2,119
Adams U -6,632 C-4,363
Murray U -3,529 C 1,489
Paisley U -44 C-2
Trimble U- 214 C-131
Reynolds U- 3,951 C-2,231
Cowan U -633 C-509
Empey U -11 C-0
Allister U- 3 C-1
Molyneaux U-13 C-0
Durkan U-2 C-2
Doherty U-529 C-139
Blair U-1,249 C-675
O’Brien U- 3,132 C -621
Taggart U- 310 C -47
Fitzgerald U -1,617 C -708
Delaney U - 725 C- 154
Robinson U - 8,453 C- 4,447
Donaldson U - 602 C -275
Carroll U- 2,414 C-1,430
Vance U-472 C- 472As the Civil War began in 1861 with the famine emigration in the mid 1840’s then presumably many of the Irish immigrants would have enlisted . The fact that so many with ‘irish ’ names ended up fighting for the South indicates that they did not all stay in the Northern States but must have been on the move since well before the famine .
I included some of the more prominent ‘political names ’ within Unionism and nationalism to show participation rates :). It seems the Empey’s are/were very pro Union regardless of which side of the pond they inhabit -likewise the Molyneauxs . The Cowans are just barely pro Union with a strong rebel streak in the Paisley’s and most of the others . McGuinness /Magennis has so many spelling variants that you can add them all if you are interested . One name only gives a higher figure for the Confederates than the Unionists and that’s Vance . No idea where that name is from except there was/is a cobbler’s shop by the name in Bray Co Wicklow ;)
You can have more fun at http://www.ancestry.com . You don’t have to subscribe . It states English surnames but it appears to take all comers including Irish , Scots , Welsh and others . Also gives distribution maps for USA , England ,and Scotland , Wales but alas not Ireland .
You can have fun with the site but do remember Malcolm’s admonition ;) Bear in mind also that the Union States outpopulated the Confederates by 3 to 1 IIRC so if there was even distribution of names which there isn’t there would be a 3 to 1 inbuilt bias for the Union.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 09:11 PMDo remember also that 600,000 died in the American Civil War as the Scotch Irish killed each other and Irish also on opposing sides . I guess we’ll never learn eh :(
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 09:17 PMOne of Washington’s closest friends and advisors was an Irish Catholic from Wexford by the name of John Barry who rose from cabin boy to Commodore in the United States Navy. In fact, he is considered the father of the American Navy.
On February 22, 1797, President Washington called Barry to the President’s Mansion at 190 High (Market) Street, to receive Commission Number One in the Navy which was dated June 4, 1794, the date of his original selection. The formal ceremony took place on Washington’s birthday.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 09:22 PMUSA…..I’m certainly not bitter, but like many Ulstermen, I get rather annoyed with those 9th / 10th generation Americans calling themselves ‘Irish-American’ who have never set foot in British Ulster or the Repubic of Ireland, yet interfere [e.g. KieranJ] with anti-Unionist, anti-Protestant, anti-British remarks.
To call such people ‘Plastic Paddys’ is in no way racist and indeed is not an original name of mine for these headcases….if I recall correctly it was on a Nationalist blog that I first saw the term used.
What we Protestants / Unionists of Ulster have been called by those people and by their counterparts here in this part of the UK and in the Republic of Ireland is hundreds of times worse than this friendly term for folk whose knowledge of Irish history is suspect.
Your views are typical of your type: You can’t answer the argument, so you seek to shoot the messenger. Well mate, you missed by a mile !!!!Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 10:52 PMGreenflag -
I think that the surname Vance is actually Norman in origin.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 10:54 PMEdward.
I live in the USA and I don’t believe people wear their religion on their sleeves for public consumption any more than people do in other countries I have been to.
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 01:19 AMWilliam,
You are bitter and you are a loser.Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 01:44 AM@ Greagoir
“Oh indeed Harry Flashman, but such surnames are found throughout all of Britain as well as all of Ireland. It aint just an NI Ulster thing all the time!”
I do realise that Greg but those names seem more redolent of the border counties of England, Lowland Scotland and Ulster rather than generic “British Isles” names; there’s no Poselthwaites or Beauchamp-Smythes or Trefgarnes or even O’Sullivans or MacGregors for that matter. It’s not a major point but I think we can assume that country music is not a product of generalised emigration from all over these islands when we look at where it orginated from and among whom it is still most popular.
@USA
“These folks are the foot soldiers of the Christian Right, anti abortion, anti evolution, want to preach Christian beliefs in school etc.”
And in doing so they are continuing on the long tradition of what they first stood for. Hollywood and a liberal education system have created a myth that the men who fought King George were some sort of proto-liberals, they weren’t. They were precisely the same type of people fighting for precisely the same issues then as they are today, the United States may have changed but they haven’t.
The men who fought for US independence were fighting for the basic right to be left the hell alone, they fought against big unaccountable government, they fought for the right to say what they bloody well thought and if you didn’t like it tough. They fought for the right to organise their own lives according to what was best for them and their neighbours and not according to the dictates of some elites in a distant capital many hundreds of miles away.
To them the most important parts of the constitution were the First and Second Amendments, (just for the record nowhere does it say in the US Constitution that there is a “seperation” of religion and government, merely that there should be no Congress sponsored religion). It is those two amendments which they most strictly adhere to today and which they see being undermined by what they would see as the same damnable fancy pants elites who have been trying to interfere in their affairs and telling them how to run their lives for over three hundred years.
We might not like such people today, we might find them rather uncouth and out of touch with our current ways of running government and we may feel the need to pass more laws or maybe send down more soldiers to impose the “proper” way of thinking upon them, King George certainly felt that way, but just remember it was those guys who created the freedoms which everyone now so applauds.
Furthermore they uphold the Second Amendment not because they are dumb hicks who “cling” to their guns out of “desperation” or even farmers and hunters who need to control vermin, nor for that matter vulnerable people who need a gun for protection from criminals. No, they uphold the Second Amendment for the precise reasons for which it was written in the first place; to enable free born citizens to shoot government officials who try to get too big for their boots.
There’s something about that which makes me smile.
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 02:02 AMIm a Dubliner with a load of scottish ancertry in my family tree…. does that make me Scots Irish ? How about the fact that I have a Viking surname as do many other Irish people does that make me Scandanavian-Irish?
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 02:11 AMThis one has to be the mother and father of all “na-na-nan-an-a my tribe pissed higher up the wall than your tribe which therefore proves how much we’re better and smarter than you” blogs. Catch a grip.
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 02:27 AMModernist,
“Viking surname”
The Vikings did not have surnames, indeed people in Iceland still dont.
Others and none,
Surnames can only tell you so much, for example 1/4 of the DUP MLA’s have Gaelic surnames and not one of them would describe themselve as a Gael in any way.
http://gaelgannaire.blogspot.com/2008/11/dup-forghaeil.html
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 08:45 AMI’ve just had a moment of fantasy:
A wormhole in the space/time continuum whirls ggn @ 09:45 AM back to the Irish-Norse kingdom of Jorvik. A brief dialogue ensues:
ggn @ 09:45 AM: Eric [strictly, of course, it ought to be “Eiríkr”, but we’re being familiar here], old chap, y’know you can’t go around calling yourself “Bloodaxe”. You’re not entitled to a surname for another three or four centuries. And, any way, it’s only a “by-name” ...
Eiríkr blóđřx: Hmmm ... Grrr ...
[SFX: Splat!]
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 09:39 AMSaw a colour-coded map of the British Isles recently, indicating where different genres of music generated highest album sales … thought it was very telling that it was the northern coastlines of Ireland and Scotland where country music sales were at their peak.
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 11:01 AMPeople from Iceland have surnames but they are based on yopur fathers or mothers name
for instance my icelandic-canadian friend was Thor Ericson, he was literaly eric’s son, if he followed through with icelandic tradition then his son might be Jon Thorson
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 11:11 AM“First names that have not been previously used in Iceland must be approved by the Icelandic Naming Committee before being used”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name
From wiki….and Bjork is her real name…..
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 11:17 AM“I do realise that Greg but those names seem more redolent of the border counties of England, Lowland Scotland and Ulster rather than generic “British Isles” names; there’s no Poselthwaites or Beauchamp-Smythes or Trefgarnes or even O’Sullivans or MacGregors for that matter. It’s not a major point but I think we can assume that country music is not a product of generalised emigration from all over these
islands when we look at where it orginated from and among whom it is still most popular.”
- True Harry Flashman, (and for you did write…“I’m not saying they’re all descended from our wee province but it seems compulsory to at least sound like you did if you want to make a go of it.”) and Malcolm Redfellow as well.
I didn’t mean to sound somewhat dismissive of such a significant input by the good Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots brethren and pioneers. Their enormous contribution to the folk culture/music and general society of the USA is exceptional.- So credit where credits due, to the Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots who made such an overall definitive mark on the formative years of the USA. Their contribution has been outstanding!
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 11:22 AMWilliam ,
‘I’m certainly not bitter, but like many Ulstermen, I get rather annoyed with those 9th / 10th generation Americans calling themselves ‘Irish-American’ who have never set foot in British Ulster or the Repubic of Ireland’
It’s all in the response . Learn not to be annoyed . I recall being somewhat startled by a Kentuckian who on discovering I was Irish promptly replied that he was Irish too . His last name sounded English to me but hey whatever people want to call themselves it’s okay by me . What does it matter to me ? Who am/was I to tell the man he was’nt ? It would be worse than telling a Unionist he/she’s not British even though that person is 12 generations removed from an ancestor actually born in Britain ..’ with anti-Unionist, anti-Protestant, anti-British remarks.
I’m anti Unionist too but I hope that does’nt annoy you because its a very common condition on this island/islands though it’s political and not personal . Likewise I’m sure many Unionists confess to being anti Republican without being ‘bad ’ people .As for the 9th /10th generation stuff ? If you did a bit of research you would probably find that most of the strongly anti Unionist/British American Irish are the 2nd or 3rd generation descendants of the ‘Irregulars ’ the anti Treaty forces who left Ireland after their defeat in 1922 .These people have no particular high political regard for the Irish Free State or Republic either and a lot less for Northern Ireland Many would still have some direct family connections with Ireland unlike the vast majority of Irish Americans be they of Scotch Irish or Irish origin .
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 11:35 AMHarry Flashman,
‘they uphold the Second Amendment for the precise reasons for which it was written in the first place; to enable free born citizens to shoot government officials who try to get too big for their boots.’
So you mean just like the IRA in Northern Ireland . IIRC they were never too keen on the local government officials in that part of the world either Which of course explains why said Government made it illegal for IRA people to have weapons. ?
‘There’s something about that which makes me smile.’It’s just confirmation of your worst fears Harry i.e Government is bad for people and we should all try to be like Somalia where there has been no government of any sort for the past 20 years and the people are the happiest on earth . I even read reports that tsaid Somalisa are now not only allowed to have as many guns as they want but they are even allowed to play ‘Pirates of the Indian and other Oceans ’ as a means of generating much needed revenue ;)
Not much diffeent I suppose from all those subcontractors coining it off the backs of SS Oil Tanker Iraq .
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 11:44 AMcharlie ,
‘thought it was very telling that it was the northern coastlines of Ireland and Scotland where country music sales were at their peak. ‘
Who’d have guessed it :) . I’d put it all down to Jeffrey Donaldson’s alter ego a certain Daniel O’Donnell the singer who’s vocal tract should have been ripped out at birth ;)
Posted by on Nov 24, 2008 @ 11:50 AM
