Saturday, November 22, 2008
The ‘Scots-Irish’ in America
Professor Brian Walker from the School of Politics at Queen’s University Belfast has a piece published in the Irish Times today about the Scots-Irish in America.
He points out that over half of some 40 million people who gave their country of origin as Ireland are actually of Protestant descent. He also points out that many were Ulster Presbyterians, descending from Scotland in the 17th-century:
“To explain this situation attention now focused on the Scots Irish. The first waves of emigrants from Ireland to America in the eighteenth century consisted largely of Ulster Presbyterians, numbering about a quarter of a million people, who were descendants of 17th-century Scottish immigrants to Ireland. Due to their early arrival and thanks to a multiplier factor, it was argued, their descendants made up a major part of those in America with an Irish background.”
The article offers interesting reading and shines a light on the extent of immigration by Protestants, of Scotish origin, from Ireland to America. I recalled when reading the article the story from the Ulster-Scots musical ‘On Eagles Wings’.
Andrew Charles @ 02:42 PM
KieranJ,
I stand corrected. It is actually a town. It is located approx 25 miles south west of Pittsburg, I have driven past it on a dozen times. Also, approx 15 miles north of Donegal PA is another town called Derry.Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 01:24 AM“So you see, hundreds of Ulster Presbyterians made their mark on America long before the Irish appeared in the mid 17th century.”
Indeed William, but such folk are ‘tainted’ with the mark of coming from dear old Ireland like me and everyone else from the island of Ireland today. For they are my ancestors too. Their history is mine as well. And such folk were independant republicans too.
Besides a Charles Carroll and a Thomas Lynch signed the American Declaration of Independance on behalf of the ‘Catholic’ Irish of this island which you seem so dismissive of. Benjamin Franklin done it on my behalf!
Did your Scots-Irish ancestor folk actually sign it too or were they the ultra loyal servant folk to the King and Queen of England?
Don’t knock the Republican Scots-Irish Presbyterians who help found the greatest republic today. They are our ancestors too!
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 01:50 AM“If one looks at the names of famous Country singers in the US it reads like a membership list of the East Londonderry DUP; Hank Williams, Patsy Cline, Don McLean, Johnny Cash, Glen Campbell, Don Williams, Rita Coolidge, Charlie Daniels, Lyn Anderson, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, George Jones, Reba McEntire, Jim Reeves, Kenny Rogers etc.”
Oh indeed Harry Flashman, but such surnames are found throughout all of Britain as well as all of Ireland. It aint just an NI Ulster thing all the time!
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 01:57 AMWell, they can claim credit for spawning the dismal inbreds that Americans refer to as “hillbilly.” It comes from ‘Billy Boys on the hill’ to means the Scots-Irish immigrants who settled the Appalachian region in the early 1700s. That kid playing the banjo in Deliverance does looks a bit like Reg Emprey, come to think of it.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:17 AMGreagoir O’ Frainclin @ 02:57 AM:
Aw, c’mon! The Northern Dissenter inheritance in Country music is universally accepted. Every one in Harry Flashman’s list has an Ulster descent: the traditional songs, the structure of their more recent compositions, the instrumentation, the mind-set develop from Scots-Irish culture. None more so than Charlie Daniels: go to his philosophising on the Soapbox of his own website, and it’s straight from the heart of our own beloved Iris:
The likelihood of evolution being fact is about the same as millions of blind men solving millions of Rubik’s Cubes at exactly the same instant.
About the same as a random pile of junk coming together on its own and turning into a 747 airliner.
In other words it just ain’t possible…
This world was created by Almighty God and no amount of theories or college professors can change that fact. The truth of the matter is that evolution cannot be proven.
It never has and it never will because you can’t prove a lie.
Pray for our troops.
George Washington, at Valley Forge, knew the Ulster Protestants and Lowlands Scots were essential to the American revolution (the Highland Scots, by the way, tended to be Tory loyalists):
If all else fails I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scots-Irish of that region, and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger.
Teddy Roosevelt spelt it out:
Along the western frontier of the colonies that were so soon to be the United States, among the foothills of the Alleghenies on the slopes of the wooded mountains, and in the long trough-like valleys that lay between the ranges, dwelt a peculiar and characteristically American people.
The backwoods mountaineers were all cast in the same mould and resembled each other much more than any of them did their immediate neighbours of the plains. The backwoodsmen of Pennsylvania had little in common with the peaceful population of Quakers and Germans who lived between the Delaware and Susquehanna rivers; and their near kinsmen of the Blue Ridge and the Great Smoky Mountains were separated by an equally wide gulf from the aristocratic planter communities that flourished in the Tidewater regions of Virginia and the Carolinas.
The backwoodsmen were American by birth and parentage, and of mixed race; but the dominant strain in their blood was that of Presbyterian Irish—the Scotch-Irish as they were often called. Full credit has been awarded the Roundhead and the Cavalier for their leadership in our history; nor have we been altogether blind to the deeds of the Hollander and the Huguenot; but it is doubtful if we have wholly realized the importance of the part played by that stern and virile people, the Irish whose preachers taught the creed of Knox and Calvin. These Irish representatives of the Covenanters were in the West almost what the Puritans were in the North-East, and more than the Cavaliers were in the South. Mingled with the descendants of many other races, they nevertheless formed the kernel of the distinctively and intensely American stock who were the pioneers of our people in the march Westwards.
The were a truculent and obstinate people and gloried in the warlike renown of their forefathers, the men who had followed Oliver Cromwell and who had shared the defence of Derry and in the victories of the Boyne and Aughrim.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 05:05 AMAmericans change their religion like other people change their underwear. To assume that an American who claims to be of Irish descent and is a Protestant is therefore automatically of Scots-Irish descent is stretching it to say the least. A relatively recent infatuation with all things Irish is more likely to cause an American with some to very little Irish in them to claim to be Irish rather than some remarkably undiluted-over-the- centuries Scots-Irish lineage.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 06:44 AMThe Declarsation of Indepedence was printed by John Dunlap not Dunlop or Thompson as others have indicated.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 07:06 AMTrust KieranJ…the Plastic Paddy to ‘stick his oar in’ with something that is negative….so here is some infor for the ‘PP’:
Donegal Township, Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania - Wikipedia ...Donegal Township is a township in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania, United States. The population was 2442 at the 2000 census.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 09:14 AMHi…I posted the above [No 8] prior to reading the correction from USA ....
It is always nice to see the Irish Republican element [Plastic Paddys amongst them, no doubt] who seek to demean the part played in the building of America by the descendants of those Scottish folk who settled in Ulster and subsequently emigrated to the USA, but who build a myth on the part played by the Irish who emigrated at the time of the Famine, over a hundred years after the mass emigration of the mainly Presbyterian Ulster folk.
They then tell us to feel proud of a tiny minority of our ancestors who were the ‘folk of 1798’....I will remember those people, not with pride but with understanding as to how they felt in those days, due to the treatment they received from the Established Church….that same treatment being the reason our Ancestors sailed for the New World. I will also recall that many of those Presbyterian ‘folk of 1798’ had changed their mind by the mid 1800s.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 09:23 AMWilliam,
You don’t remember them with pride for being democrats then? But it’s ok to remember the American ones who wanted to break the connection with England in the cause of freedom?
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 11:14 AM“If all else fails I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scots-Irish of that region, and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger.”
Excellent Malcolm - new stuff to me.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 12:04 PMMalcolm
Charlie Daniels: go to his philosophising on the Soapbox of his own website, and it’s straight from the heart of our own beloved Iris
I think you’ll find that Iris and others here are influenced by the American fundies and not vice versa.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 01:17 PMMalcolm,
Yes another good post. I know General Washington was very aware of the role the Ulstermen and their descendants played in the War of Independance.
I also agree that country music is influenced by Ulster roots. There is another type of music over here called Bluegrass which is very popular in the Southern States and even more obviously influenced by Irish/Ulster roots.
These folks are the foot soldiers of the Christian Right, anti abortion, anti evolution, want to preach Christian beliefs in school etc.EXile1,
Americans do not change their religion as much as other people change their underwear. The constitution provides for a separation of church and state. It is an attempt to ensure that all people can practice their beliefs freely without fear. Religion is regarded as a matter of personal freedom and not to be brough into education or government.William,
I find your remarks to be tinged with bitterness. You constantly make racist comments such as “Plastic Paddy” etc.
And even though you question it, I AM in the United States.
Many of your ancestors were republicans in Ireland and the US. This is nothing to be ashamed of, France is a republic, the US, Ireland etc. They are all functioning modern democracies. Stop being such a bitter person and try to enjoy life a little more.Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:04 PM‘If all else fails I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scots-Irish of that region, and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger.”
Several years ago while touring in the Virginian outback close to the West Virginian state line I got lost along the backroads and ended up having to to do a U turn at the end of a loose gravel road called Irish ridge iirc which ended at a Church with an ajoining cemetry . As the place was deserted it being mid week I stopped the car and took a walk across ‘boot hill’ to the ridge from which there was a beautiful view . Being autumn it was especially so. On the way back I looked at the names on the gravestones and saw a Fitzgerald, Murphy , Carlin , McNeils among the Campbells , Blairs , Murrays along with Elliots and other more English sounding names . I had’nt paid any attention to the Church’s denomination but as I got into my car I looked at the Church board and it was of some Baptist variety. Seems many catholic irish must have hitched a ride on the boats going to America along with the presbterians or else signed up with the first building that looked like a church when they got there .
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:05 PMDewi @ 01:04 PM:
You know, that Washington quotation seemed a good idea in the middle of the night, when I posted it. It appears with no supporting citation on, for examples, Burke’s Peerage and electricscotland websites. Ever since, it’s been niggling at me: it seems a very convenient quotation. I now see an item on the Library of Virginia History server which invites a source: as far as I see, no precise citation has been provided. I’m looking further into the matter.
Big Maggie @ 02:17 PM:
You are, of course, quite correct there. Note that I did not seek to imply that either Daniels or Iris were capable of intellectual thought, rather than emoting with their ... well, let’s be generous here ... hearts.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:07 PM’ I will also recall that many of those Presbyterian ‘folk of 1798’ had changed their mind by the mid 1800s.’
That’s what happens when the boot is lifted off a people’s neck . The Catholics of Ireland had to wait another century for the boot to be lifted and Northern Irish Catholics another half century and some would say that the boot is still there.
Bribery works too at changing people’s minds . Paying off the Presbyterians was much easier than paying off the Cathlics back in the early 1800’s given the overwhelmong numerical predominance of the latter over the former on the island .
Whenever religion enters the debate always look for the money - who has it - who’s giving it out and who wants more !
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:13 PM’ I will also recall that many of those Presbyterian ‘folk of 1798’ had changed their mind by the mid 1800s.’
That’s what happens when the boot is lifted off a people’s neck . The Catholics of Ireland had to wait another century for the boot to be lifted and Northern Irish Catholics another half century and some would say that the boot is still there.
Bribery works too at changing people’s minds . Paying off the Presbyterians was much easier than paying off the Cathlics back in the early 1800’s given the overwhelmong numerical predominance of the latter over the former on the island .
Whenever religion enters the debate always look for the money - who has it - who’s giving it out and who wants more !
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:14 PMapologies for duplication above . Please remove no 17 oh moderate one :(
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:18 PMMalcolm,
Seems Billy Kennedy agrees with you here . Scroll to near the bottom.
But frustratingly he does not provide a source for the quote.Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:20 PMmalcolm redfellow ,
‘They were a truculent and obstinate people and gloried in the warlike renown of their forefathers’Plus ca change ?
This ‘glorying ’ btw is an ancient Irish Gaelic tribal custom and one suspects in most Iron Age cultures whereby individual leaders would prior to engaging in single combat with an opponent, would first recite the glorious deeds of their ancestors going back to Conn Cead Cathach (Conn of the Hundred battles ). Presumably the one with the longest line of cut throats in the ancestral past was a sure favourite with the turf accountants of the time ?
It’s not known whether this tactic was designed originally to bore spectators on opposing sides to death or to reduce communal slaughter to a minimum but it certainly did’nt impress the Romans who iirc used the power of wedge formation and strict military organisation to defeat Boadicea’s 150,000 horde of baying Britons with 7,000 trained legionaries . Caesar was so impressed with Celtic tribal discipline that he felt one legion (5,000 ) men would be sufficient to take and hold Ireland .
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:31 PM“whereby individual leaders would prior to engaging in single combat with an opponent”
Yeah GF Arthur blasted sought out this glorious do or die single combat nonsense. We always had trouble with him. I remember well how he missed the management successioin planning brainstorm with the feeble excuse of out challing Aethelstan or Ethelred or another one of tose dafty named Saxons.
Heroic maybe but give me a decent bureaucrat everyday…..
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 02:50 PMA significant number of the Irish-American Protestants probably post-date both the great Scots-Irish emigration and the Famine.
The Protestant population of most southern counties in Ireland was in virtual freefall before independence, and it is likely that many of these people went to the USA, as well as to other overseas colonies.
In my own family (C of I, and only vaguely ‘Scots’) a lot of the generations on either side of 1900 went to the USA - places like upstate New York. Th same was true of many other families from our area (my father is a great genealogist and knows everyone’s stories for a hundred years or more back!)
So it would be inaccurate to assume that all Protestant Irish-Americans are either Ulster-Scots or even ‘orange’ - my own US relatives are simply aware, in a neutral kind of way, of being of Irish descent. When they visit they are more concerned about local issues (“who was it that married cousin X?” and so on) than about the constitutional question.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 03:03 PMhorseman ,
‘The Protestant population of most southern counties in Ireland was in virtual freefall before independence, and it is likely that many of these people went to the USA, as well as to other overseas colonies. ‘
Not just in southern counties but even in northern counties there was a decline .Many of the slightly better off Presbyterians gapped it to the overseas white commonwealth and the UK because of the lack of economic opportunity in Ulster. According to Marcus Tanner’s ‘Ireland’s Holy Wars ’ many of the southern protestants post 1865 (COI Disestablishment ) headed for Canada , or the UK with fewer going to the USA . Most southern Catholics headed for the USA or UK . Post 1922 many ex IRA irregulars headed for the USA with a few southern protestants heading north or to the UK but most opting for the ‘white ’ commonwealth especially Canada and South Africa and presumably economic opportunity.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 03:59 PMGreenflag‘s most recent comments need thought and comment. I’m afraid it takes me off-topic quite a distance.
As a wild generalisation, the Catholic Irish immigrants initially stayed put in the cities, near the ports of their arrival. They did not, like other groups, succomb to the attractions of land in the west. Curiously, this was also valid for those who, back in Ireland, had worked on the land. Carl Wittke made a point of this in his 1956 book, The Irish in America:
The Irish immigrant was primarily a phenomenon of the development of urban life in the United States. The number who took up farming as a means of livelihood always remained low.
[By the nature of the species, other, later historians have attacked this thesis.]
Wittke’s observation has a degree of superficial conviction, which—I admit—I cannot verify statistically, or even by Greenflag‘s graveyard trawling. Accepting it as a basis for argument, though, provides us with a problem: why did it happen?
One reason lies with the attitude taken by Bishop (after 1850, Archbishop) John J. Hughes, opposing agricultural settlements. Hughes has been accused of narrow self-interest, in fear of what Greenflag saw in Marshall County: loss of authority over the faithful, scattered and absorbed into Protestant populations. He also had reason to doubt (based on sound experience) the blandishments of the promoters of settlement schemes.
Another explanation is the success of the Irish building community ties and political associations (the volunteer fire brigades, Tammany, trades unions and the Democratic Party) which gave them increasing political clout and patronage.
One consequence flowed from the urban Irish settlement: it exacerbated racial conflicts. The Irish incomers had to oust free and slave Black labour. Here’s Frederick Douglass in 1853:
Every hour sees us elbowed out of some employment to make room for some newly-arrived emigrant from the Emerald Isle, whose hunger and color entitle him to special favor. These white men are becoming houseservants, cooks, stewards, waiters and flunkies. For aught I see they adjust themselves to their stations with all proper humility. If they cannot rise to the dignity of white men, they show they can fall to the degradation of black men.
Hence the Irish-American opposition to the Republican Party of Lincoln, the New York riots, and much more ado.
Finally, there was the investment hurdle. For a family to travel to the West, purchase land and essential equipment, and to survive until the first crop needed a minimum of $1,000. The Homestead Bill was first mooted in the 1850s, but the argument used against it was that the main beneficiaries would be “generally of the middle, or rather not of the poorest class”. The proof of that came when the Homestead Act of 1862 actually provided four times the land to the railroad companies as went to individual homesteaders. So Seamus McFly was an exceptional case.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:01 PMDewi
‘King Arthur sought out this glorious do or die single combat nonsense.’
Maybe the world might be a better place if this ancient custom was revitalised ? In any prospective war between two countries ‘war’ could only begin with each leader having to face his opposite number in single to the death combat .
Might have a preventative effect eh ;)?
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:07 PM
