Thursday, March 20, 2008
The Problem with Mary (and conventions)
Sometimes in Northern Ireland there is a tendency to suggest that because the other lot do something therefore we should not do it. This is a common problem in sport and even the arts and music. I would suggest, however, that this problem is also present in religion.
I thought I might, this week, be permitted to make some comment on religion without too many complaints, it is after all part of our culture and even the non religious may recognise that this week has a certain resonance with Christians.
I thought I would talk about Mary (as in the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, not the woman currently President of the RoI).
I have no idea how many sermons I have heard. I certainly hear at least one a week (the evening service is difficult to get to because of the children). Also sometimes we go to the Bangor or Portstewart convention or other missions. As such I have heard a lot. Sermons frequently talk about a biblical character, sometimes quite an obscure one. My former minister at home based a sermon on Enoch; with only two verses, Genesis 5 22 and 24 being very relevant to Enoch’s character etc. There was in fairness not that much to go on but it was an excellent sermon.
As an educative aside for the uninitiated: Bangor (at Easter) and Portstewart (in the summer) conventions are events where lots of dour looking fundamentalist Prods all go to religious meetings for a week and hear lots of preaching. In Portstewart this is held in a tent which always adds greatly to generalised dourness. Then they go down to Morelli’s and buy ice cream (except the mean ones like me who do not). The dangerous liberals buy ice cream on Sunday’s as well. Bangor is much the same except they use a Presbyterian Church instead and the overall ambiance is sometimes distressingly less dour in my experience though my father in law (not a man given to wild jollity) was very fond of Bangor convention and I have this very evening been agitating at Elenwe that we should go sometime over the weekend.
Back to Mary; I have never once heard a sermon about Mary. Now just in case anyone misunderstands, fundamentalist Protestants also believe in the Virgin birth. We just do not seem to honour her in the way we do other great Christians. I personally suspect this is incorrect. I would, I submit have significant support for this, Mary is called “Blessed” by an angel after all.
Luke 1:28 “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”
There are also lots of references to her throughout the New Testament. As such there is plenty to base a sermon on. However, going back to my previous comments there is of course a huge problem. The RCs like her. Could there be a little bit of us which does not talk about her because the RCs do? If so that is a pretty rubbish reason. We do not accept her as Queen of Heaven nor her bodily assumption but I suggest that we could give her a lot more honour with becoming ecumenists. After all Dr. Paisley always preaches about St. Patrick on the Sunday closest to St. Patrick’s day and whatever my views on his politics I do not think he has become ecumenical. So how about it, if any fundamentalist preachers are reading: How about a bit of rehabilitation for Mary, How about a sermon on Mary? You could have one at one of the conventions this year.
Turgon @ 09:48 PM
I suspect you are right to a degree Turgon on the subject of Mary - it would be a bit of a faux pas amongst the fundamentalist preachers. As you said if isn’t for lack of material or a denial in the Virgin birth that is the problem.
It is more to do with ‘graven images’ and worshipping ‘idols’. Those of the reformed faith believe in the word of God as laid down in the bible. The Roman Catholic church forsaked one of the 10 commandments on worshipping idols and separated another so as there were still 10 in total.
Revisionism plays a major part here. The reformed faith, maybe due to counter-logic, do not want to be percieved as worshipping Mary as an Idol in the same way the Roman Catholics do.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:06 PMA pox on all religion, it has ill served Ireland.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:10 PMProds would fist have to come up with a more upbeat moniker than just plain “Mary”. I have often wondered if such a bland reference to her was a bit of a slight? Its truly odd, when you speak to a prod about “Mary”, they know who you’re talking about and its not Mary down the road.
There are loads of references to her in the bible, do prods just not read those bits? I thought the gospel, was......errr...gospel?
At the same time I often wondered about what could be conceived as her over veneration by RCs. She didn’t do that much (after the virgin birth that is) or say that much per the bible. Whats the big draw? Maybe its just the lesson that she loved her son.
There must be some deliberate source to all of this. Was she specifically excluded or downplayed by Luther, Calvin etc?
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:25 PMWhen all the religions here are down to a few 80 year olds and crumbling churches, they will be glad to band together or fade into history like the rest of the elitists and fantasists and leave sensible people to get on with their lives.The rest of us manage to get by on socialist and humanist principles.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:25 PMRevisionism plays a major part here. The reformed faith, maybe due to counter-logic, do not want to be percieved as worshipping Mary as an Idol in the same way the Roman Catholics do.
Posted by Ignited on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:06 PM
We do not worship Mary as an idol, i however recognise she will be closer to her son, our Lord Jesus Christ. When we mention Mary in our prayers it is simply because we believe she is close to God. We ask for her intervention but do not worship her. There is a difference.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:26 PMA pox on all religion, it has ill served Ireland.
Posted by TAFKABO on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:10 PM
It is easy to forget the good deeds. Education, Health, Charities, Visiting the sick and emotional support. But there was a few bad priests so forget about the good. Ireland owes the church a lot. With the decline of the church we also see an increase in sexual offences, murder and general crime. Sure what does that matter as long as we can bash a few men and woman who dedicate their lives to god and make our communities better as a result.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:35 PMThe rest of us manage to get by on socialist and humanist principles.
Posted by Pancho’s Horse on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:25 PM
It is a good job it is only socialist ‘principles’ and not their economics or we would all be screwed.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:40 PMI mean ‘socialist’ as in ‘for the social good’ NOT in a political sense .... like the first Christians were socialist. You have to realise pfhl that people are not easily gulled now and the young especially demand proof of everything. I’m afraid quotations from a first century book of fairytales is not enough. You must give them a socialist/humanist reason not to rape, steal or wage war.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:47 PMpfhl.
Having statues in a place of worship is unacceptable in the reformed faith - even stained glass windows are contentious. Mary as a statue and Jesus Christ dead on the cross graven images and idols. That is how they are percieved by those of the Protestant faith.
‘Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.’
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:48 PMI take it then, ignited, from that load of codswallop that sculptors are destined for Hell?
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:52 PMPanch -
Sculptors no.
Idol worshippers and unbelievers yes ;-)
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 11:03 PMI apologise, Ignited. You are entitled to believe in what you believe in. Time will tell who is right.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 11:22 PMIgnited it does sound like sculptors are screwed from that. Michaelangelo’s David was a very bad idea.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 11:26 PMHave to agree with piffle. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image ............” leaves no room to manoeuvre. Sculptors are for the fires.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 11:30 PMI would argue that the rest of the commandment qualifies what is in contention....
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 11:38 PM..... and I would argue that to leave it up to individual interpretation is the root of all evil.
Posted by on Mar 20, 2008 @ 11:47 PM“for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me”
Why do people worship this irrational ego-maniac? Is that really supposed to scare people? Sounds like a bit of a ‘C U Next Thursday’ to me.
Posted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 01:07 AMdo you wnat to enjoy your life now?
The mood is different everyday ,but i wish to Own thought with mine life relates in together , I choose t-shirt, view my thought in my daillife, show to everyone beside me..
when i browse throght google i find a website which exclusively sells various diy t-shirt, there are many poinions there, they can printout whatever you want in your t-shirt, and very vogue,a very hot website , and get a good reputation
why do you wait, follow this… http://www.diy-t-shirt.comPosted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 02:47 AMSometimes I think that people mis-understand the term of graven images,otherwise why would God have instructed Moses to put the 2 gold Seraphim on the ark of the covenant.
Posted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 03:37 AMWith the decline of the church we also see an increase in sexual offences, murder and general crime.
Posted by pfhl. on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:35 PMGot any references to support that? Or was crime so much less of an issue in the past?
Sure what does that matter as long as we can bash a few men and woman who dedicate their lives to god and make our communities better as a result.
Posted by pfhl. on Mar 20, 2008 @ 10:35 PMSo one must dedicate their lives to “god” to better their communities?
Posted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 04:41 AMIreland owes the church a lot
In your opinion. In mine it kept Ireland in the dark ages for decades. Imprisonment and forced labour of ‘sexually promiscuos’ girls. Removing of children from single parents. Campaigning against contraception during the AIDs crisis. Convincing women to remain married to abusive husbands (or burn in hell). The institutional covering up of sexual abuse at the highest level (sure, just move him to a different parish).
With the decline of the church we also see an increase in sexual offences, murder and general crime
Unsubstantiated rubbish.
Where are the statistics?
Who compiled the statistics?
What about all the sexual offences in the past that went undetected?
What about Urban sprawl as a factor?
What is ‘general crime’?
What about improvements in technology leading to more convictions?
What is the actual link between religion and crime? More people like rugby in Ireland than before - is that also because of the decline of the church?I could go on…
Posted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 05:06 AMWhile I accept that most Christian countries have got some thing wrong in the past ,it is because we are all human and as such we sometimes get it wrong,however I would much rather live in a Christian country than in a country where atheism is the state religion.Hitler’s Germany,Stalin’s Russia,Mao’s China or POL Pot’s Kampuchea(Cambodia).
Posted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 05:33 AMDanny,
all you’ve pointed out is that you wouldn’t like to live in a Revolutionary Dictatorship or caught up in a Cult of Personality.
And don’t kid yourself that you live in a Christian country. Most people in the UK are Christians in name only, with only 7% regularly attending church.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3725801.stm
In Ireland 160 priests died last year with only nine being ordained, and even back in 2003 Catholic Church attendance in the Republic was down 17% in just five years.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2003/1011748.htm
‘God’ knows what it is now but I’m pretty sure it hasn’t improved.
Northern Ireland is getting lower church attendences also, as far back as the 1991 census only just over half were churchgoers which I also doubt has improved much since then.
My own personal experience is a lot of those who still attend church is either through habit or family pressure/guilt (usually an elderly parent).
God, Jesus and the bible are losing relevance in the UK and Ireland, being replaced by a mixture of athiesm, humanism, personal spirituality and apathy.
Evolution not revolution, and a slow transition to a new age of enlightenment is what I think will happen on these islands. At least I hope it does…
Posted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 06:18 AMTake a trip to somewhere like Medjugorje and experience the presence of Mary.
Posted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 07:35 AMTurgon
A very reasonable post. I groaned at first glance thinking this post will bring out the trolls, only too anxious to spout some abuse at our lady. Glad to see that has not been the case, perhaps my views have been clouded by years of hearing OO marchers and anyone wishing to offend catholics take great delight in shouting obscene references about her.
Is there some element of mysoginism at play with Prods ignoring Our lady? Not that catholics are blameless themselves mind you.
Posted by on Mar 21, 2008 @ 07:48 AM
