Sunday, November 12, 2006
The nation remembers
Across the United Kingdom memorial services to the dead of the World War and subsequent conflicts are taking place.
There are similar nationwide ceremonies in a number of countries across the world. In Dublin, Mary McAleese attended a Remembrance Day Service at St Patrick’s Cathedral.
“They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them”.
Fair Deal @ 11:27 AM
Getting off-topic here but I enjoyed Kevin Toolis’ article about Saddam in yesterday’s Times -
<a >Compare Bloodshed. Saddam is then the moral victor, not Bush</a>
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 08:38 PMOk, so that didn’t work :O(
Here’s the URL to cut and paste
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,175-2448577,00.html
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 08:39 PM‘Your sort should have been put over it at the barrel of a gun years ago. I still wouldn’t rule it out. ‘
Nice example of the fine and upstanding democratic citizen that you clearly are, Realist.
Personally I am genuinely sorry at the news from Iraq and the terrible news that will be delivered to these soldiers’ families this evening.
Blair and Bush sent these troops in on the back of a blatant lie-weapons of mass destruction. The carnage inflicted on the ordinary people of Iraq has been disgusting as is the unnecessary deaths of so many troops from western countries.Blair and Bush should one day be held accountable for the terrible mistake that thery have made in attempting to colonise Iraq to get a foothold in the region to control oil supplies.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 08:45 PMexcellent article that you posted Marty-
It reminded me of how Tito exerted much the same control over warring factions in the former Yugoslavia and the way that the ‘country’ disintegrated after his death.
Realist, I also should have said that the Wilfred Owen poem you posted perfectly captures the horror of war. Hadn’t read this in years and it is right and proper that Remembrance Day should remember those such as these men who died in such harrowing circumstancesPosted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 08:56 PMI spent this afternoon at the annual Colin area commemoration for our local Irish Republican dead.
This voluntary act of remembrance was not imposed on anyone.
I later got to hear the sash played outside my local pub in a mainly Nationalist area that has an Orange hall situated in the village by two young flutists returning from the British commemorations. They were ignored.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 08:59 PMAustin - it goes without saying that Iraq will never be the “democratic beacon” that Bush and Blair naively thought it would become. Especially when you have Iran and Syria pushing their own agendas.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:01 PMLib2016
If it wasn´t for British standing against fascism yopu wouldn´t hav ethe right to come out with the compete and utter bollox that you do.
Try to appear a trite more grateful.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:03 PM“Quite right, but even you can see its not a million miles off.”
No, it is completely different and dishonest to compare. I can see how the unscrupulous could use it, though.
“If it wasn´t for British standing against fascism yopu wouldn´t hav ethe right to come out with the compete and utter bollox that you do.
Try to appear a trite more grateful. “
If the Nazis had have came here, Ireland would have fought as she did in the early part of the century. It wasn’t clear that the Nazis were a special kind of evil until the end of the war. Before that, an aggressive Imperial Power, sure, but what’s new?
And if you are truly happy at kicking Nazi butt, then you should happy you’ve saved the terminally ungrateful too.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:30 PMDoctor Who,
Go and read some modern history, please. Simply quoting British wartime propaganda from fifty years ago makes you seem ridiculous and betrays the memory of the men and women you claim to be honouring.
Our understanding of the First and Second World Wars has changed and so will our understanding of the First and Second Wars for Irish Independence.
What the British referred to as the Indian Mutiny has now become the First War for Indian Independence, and that is the way it will be remembered in the future.
The soldiers of WW2 knew that their self-sacrifice had been exploited and lost no time in turning Churchill out of office. Moreover throughout her history a great meny of Britain’s battles were fought for purposes with which most of the world profoundly disagree.
History will be the judge of who is right.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:35 PM“No, it is completely different and dishonest to compare. I can see how the unscrupulous could use it, though.”
I’ll just have to disagree with you on that one. And I’m not unscrupulous.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:39 PMIt’s amazing how this thread seems to have brought out the worst in so many people on both sides of the great divide.
War is a horrendous thing, as the Wilfred Owen poem in an earlier post shows so well. Remembering those who have died in wars is something all nations do. Whether we are Irish, British, or something else, it is surely only basic human decency to let people remember in peace, whether it is Unionists on Remembrance Day, or Republicans at Easter.
Judging by this thread, basic human decency seems to be in short supply, and has been replaced by hatred. It’s a sad state of affairs.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:39 PMThere has been a lot of pejorative mention of “terrorists” on this thread, as indeed on many others. Let us examine then some terrorists from “history”. All resistance forces to German occupation 1939-45 were “terrorists” according to the Germans. All those national forces in colonies which fought against the Germans were “terrorists” to the Germans but, like the former, were resistance heroes to the Allies at least until they resisted the reintroduction of colonialism by their former masters, Britain, France and USA then they became “terrorists” once more.
All resistance to despotism in Latin America is labelled as “terrorism” but the death squads, torturers and mercenary murder gangs trained and funded by the USA are not. And of course all resistance to the illegal occupation of Iraq by its own people is “terrorism” but the aerial bombing of the civilian population by the British and Americans is not.
I begin to think that “terrorism” is defined by those who have the greater technology, the best media spin machine and above all the least hold on moral authority.
Of course all Irish resistance to British rule is “terrorism” as Britain only ever tried to look after the poor Irish and care for them unselfishly at no thought of sacrifice or cost to themselves. Besides which they do speak ever so reasonably and always mean what they say.
When my grandfather fell at Mons in 1914 he died as a result of British, not German imperialism, regardless of the origin of the bullet that killed him and I hate to see his poor bones rattled in the service of that continuing imperialism today. Better he had “died at Pearse’s side or fought with Cathal Brugha” at least his sacrifice would have been in attempting to overthrow his oppressors.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:42 PMWell said Stiofan, but I doubt it would do much good pointing that out.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:43 PMI add mt thoughts on today from another thread again:
I agree with fitting tributes to those that fought and died in the struggle against fascism.
My great-grandfather was amongst the fallen and I look at his framed service medals, I’ll inherit, every week in my parents’ house with pride.
I don’t wear a poppy because it funds elements of the British army involved in actions I find despicable.
I appreciate the sacrifice of all that fought against National Socialist Imperialism.
I find the idea of getting involved in British Legion run commemorations impossible while I reject the British Army’s presence in Ireland and the fact poppy money is used to support and finance those that occupy Ireland. Giving money for cheap drink, low rate finance or donations to squaddies who were/are involved in our conflict is impossible for me but I do want to be part of remembering the sacrifice of many.
I visited my great grandfather’s plot today on my way back from a Republican commemoration in Milltown and felt appreciation to all that died in WWII.
Most Irish people appreciate what the British army was part of in WWII. Most Irish people don’t appreciate the rest of what the British army has done in Ireland.
Difficult call. How to remember the legitimate while rejecting the illegitimate?
I remembered them.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:51 PMVery well put Mark.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:58 PMDifficult call. How to remember the legitimate while rejecting the illegitimate?
Excellent point. There’s scarcely a nation on earth that hasn’t been guilty of morally indefensible military action at one time or another.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 09:59 PMDr. Who’s’ posts on a number of threads tonight would suggest that he is’tired and emotional’ aka pissed as a newt
I’m a little squiffy myself.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:05 PMEnniskillen massacre ‘well over the line’, republican grudgingly accepts.
Ah well, at least we can remember our honourable dead with dignity, unlike the shambling shower of doleite scumbags who staggered through Casement in rememberance of shit smearing vermin like Sands et al. Heroes all, I’m sure.Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:08 PMshambling shower of doleite scumbags who staggered through Casement in rememberance of shit smearing vermin like Sands et al. Heroes all, I’m sure.
See - that’s exactly the kind of crap I’m talking about. Realist - why don’t you remember your dead, and let them remember theirs, both with dignity. Is that too much to ask?
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:21 PMMark, please get your facts straight. The British Legion does not provide cheap drink or low rate loans to squaddies as you maintain. It is an ‘ex’ service organisation. It has clubs for former servicemen to socialise, it runs tours to battle sites for commoration purposes, it supports homes for retired former servicemen, it provides support for former servicemen who have fallen on hard times, and for those with mental and physical health problems. It fights the government on behalf of its members, and has the clout to make the government listen. It is non political, and non sectarian. To support the work it does you don’t have to wear a poppy.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:21 PMRealist,
Without getting too ‘whataboutist’, Michael Stone claims he had RUC support in his commemoration attack.
Can’t we just accept each others’ remembrance without a need for having a dig at the other?
I remembered Republican and British army dead today. Only Slugger’s (and those silly young flutists playing the sash) made it feel anything other than respectful and dignified.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:21 PMrealist
When will you be setting up your first,n.i supporters club in a nationalist area ??
Perhaps you could call it ‘The ulster defence regiment murdering vermin n.i loyal supporters club’.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:23 PMMark: I remembered Republican and British army dead today.
I salute you sir. If only there were more like you.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:25 PMKatinka,
I don’t like being accused of getting my facts wrong.
The RBL provides business start up loans, grants and interest reduced loans to former squaddies beyond those part of WWII, support theBritish Legion and you support those involved in the recent Irish conflict, their Middle East adventures and the Falklands. They also sell drink cheap to their members.
I won’t be party to funding this but respect the sacrifice of British soldiers and others during WWII. (I won’t commemorate anyone that was conned into to fighting for the man in WWI)
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:29 PMLib
“The soldiers of WW2 knew that their self-sacrifice had been exploited and lost no time in turning Churchill out of office. Moreover throughout her history a great meny of Britain’s battles were fought for purposes with which most of the world profoundly disagree.”
Laugh.... I nearly shat.
Posted by on Nov 12, 2006 @ 10:42 PM
