Sunday, March 11, 2007
“the election results reflect a deeply fractured society”
Veteran punk band Stiff Little Fingers played the Ulster Hall on Friday and one of their tracks, Alternative Ulster, provides both the starting point and the conclusion to the Observer’s Henry McDonald’s survey of the political landscape post-election. Given my previous post, it won’t be a surprise that the stand out quote, for me, comes from Queen’s University’s Dr Peter Shirlow who, as Henry McDonald notes, said the outcome did not necessarily entail a move towards historic compromise.
“I think we have seen the emergence of two political movements rather than parties. Sinn Fein and the DUP are working on the basis of [politically] catch-all ethnic groups catering for rival populations. In particular, the DUP are getting a very big vote out of fear of the other side and the growth in Sinn Fein. That huge DUP vote is not about compromise, but tapping into deep insecurity in the Protestant community. Both parties are, in a way, feeding off each other.”
And a musical interlude..
Pete Baker @ 09:18 PM
Sinn Fein are growing because the SDLP are unable to represent its constituents. Poor leadership,in-fighting, no presence on the ground & a lack of will from its elected representatives to actually do the job on an on-going basis is why they continue to fail.
As for the lads at Cunningham house…
Posted by on Mar 11, 2007 @ 10:23 PMDennis Dennis Dennis, more shinner tripe being spewed out to enhance the propoganda war on proper political parties. Do you not remember the SDLP bringing the Shinners in from the cold? Do you not remember who encouraged you to stop killing and bombing? What you haven’t learnt from all this is that you are part of a nasty sectarian agenda where your partners the DUP and yourselves are polarising our community, our people.
I know from your past atrocities that you have no consciences, but surely you can see that we are all heading for another war in the not too distant future if we continue to divide our community on sectarian lines.
THe work you do on the ground is laudable, but then you have an army with nothing much more to do except your bidding. You have a lot of money from legal and other funders, and everything is geared solely to creating a bigger SF political agenda. People are, and always have been pawns in your fascist agenda. God help us all.
You have only now got to look at what the focus of energy will be on - police, SF, DUP, Assembly, Talking, Defence of respective Positions, posturing, etc. What about the real issues such as education (capital building project), health (waiting lists), our roads, jobs, the economy, etc. etc.
From a very frustrated voter
Posted by on Mar 11, 2007 @ 11:05 PMSFDUP’s big policy idea is repartition.
Don’t ask them about it, just watch them.
Posted by on Mar 11, 2007 @ 11:26 PMPete, thanks for the essay and the music.
Undoubtedly, the election does reflect deep divisions, and, sadly, why wouldn’t it? But I think if it truly marked “the emergence of two political movements rather than parties,” both the independent republicans and UKUP would have polled bigger numbers.
Posted by on Mar 11, 2007 @ 11:43 PMblogrus
If the SDLP were so good at what they did. Then why are they in the position they are in now.
Could it be that people voted for them not because of their policies but because they had no real alternative.
Remember Sinn FĂ©in where involved in a peace strategy long before John Hume got involved so you can bury that old chestnut, of bringing republicans in from the cold.
Now that people in the catholic community have a choice in who they can vote for. They have decided in there thousands to vote for Sinn FĂ©in so get used to the idea.Posted by on Mar 11, 2007 @ 11:47 PMsusan
Perhaps, but there is also the tribal battle for bragging rights to consider.
I think Peter Shirlow’s point is that the votes for the two parties concerned indicates a conglomeration of similarly inclined interests who might otherwise have voted for other parties such as the ones you referenced - “[politically] catch-all ethnic groups catering for rival populations.”
Posted by on Mar 11, 2007 @ 11:52 PMBoth parties are, in a way, feeding off each other.”
That is not entirely true, the DUP feed of the fear of SF for they have nothing else to offer, but a vote for SF is seen by many as a vote for a united Ireland. It is a positive vote. The DUP vote is a negative vote. This may in part explain the difference in turnout between Nationalist and Unionist areas. Unionists do not have any compelling vision of the future.
Of course if you want a quited Ireland one would have to question the wisdom of voting SF rather than the SDLP.
Posted by on Mar 11, 2007 @ 11:55 PM“Unionists do not have any compelling vision of the future. ”
A Northern Ireland that works would be a compelling enough vision, I would have thought.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 12:25 AMI believe that John Hume did everything he could to get SF into power, and do you want to know why?, he looked at the people coming after him in the SDLP and realised they were a conglomeration of carpet baggers, pseudo-alliance unionists, glory seekers, and doh balls. He new the future of the Irish depended on getting a credible leadership in place, he choose to pass the baton to Adams
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 12:30 AMGerry Adams predicts a United Ireland by 2015 now that Sinn Fein is leading nationalism, I am a little bemused by this statement.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 12:32 AMThis election has presented NI more tribal than any other.
There is a deep rooted sense of insecurity amongst Unionists especially. Understandably as their cultural identidy comes under attack on a daily basis. To think that Sinn Fein have been given everything they wanted post GFA, including the release of mass murderers, the abolition of the RUC, the public demonisation of the Police Service by a shameful and bias ombudsman, no public accountability for their own horrendous actions, etc etc etc, and yet they still trail their feet.
What I think surprises Unionists the most is, how given the severity of the IRA and it´s crimes, which of course continue, so many of the people they work with, drink with or pass in the street vote for Sinn Fein / IRA. As a Unionist I am surprised by the amnesia shown by Nationalists in Northern Ireland. While they are very clear to forgive Sinn Fein/IRA of their “war crimes”, they are not so quick to forgive Unionist “mis-management” of the state pre 1972.
Given that Sinn Fein have signed up to the principle of consent doesn´t seem to matter. Nationalists now firmly believe that in a short period that they will be in a position to obtain 50 +1.
Lets look at that figure....Given that Nationalists have never fully accepted Democracy in NI, what makes them think that Unionists will accept the scenario of 50 + 1. Besides who says that figure should be acceptable as a mandate for a UI. We are in a position now where a clear Unionist majority is not fully acceptable to Nationalists “Unionist Veto” anyone. The ROI have a clear influence in NI affairs, which is not challenged by Unionists like it was in 1983, the GFA also makes provisions for cross border institutions in areas of mutual concern.
What will then offer comfort to Unionists? Firstly a United Unionist voice is needed now more than ever. Far too many talented UUP members are being lost to dull and dour “no” boys of Unionism. Unionism has always has a decenting voice from the left, but the mono tone sycophantic crescendos of the DUP has taken over.
The other thing that will make Unionists more secure is a long term and lasting settlement. They see the current situation as one of Nationalists preparing the “six counties” for the inevitability of a United Ireland. If there was a an agreed setlement it would need to be along the lines of putting the soverignty of Northern Ireland beyond question. Greater North, South institutions and a commitment from the ROI that they will only seek the soverignty of the “six counties” if a border poll showed a 70% interest in it´s favour.
Lets put the intransigent pipe dream of a United Ireland to bed for once and for all and get to grips with the real issues. Only then will we see an end to this tribalism.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 12:53 AMDW,
Lets put the intransigent pipe dream of a United Ireland to bed for once and for all and get to grips with the real issues. Only then will we see an end to this tribalism.
Em, sorry but NO.
Why don’t you stop giving your allegiance to another country?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 12:59 AMIm in inclined to agree with Gerry Adams, a UI will come about before 2015, this election was a great victory for us in which we took three more seats of unionist bigots and ensured west belfast has no unionists, next time around it wont have sdlp representation either.
I think we can cut a deal with the DUP on a shared Ireland hopefully long before 2015, offering them a small but important role. unionists will need to accept some harsh realities though it is no longer going to be acceptabe to have sectarian orange marches in a 32 soverign county state and allegiance will need to be swore to the Irish state and Irish tricolour by any unionist wishing to take part in political proceedings. I personally think with Big Ian out of the way an agreement on a shared UI can be made by 2012 and by that time we can all enjoy REAL PEACE.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:08 AMPicador
My allegiance is to NI, the GFA stated that all those pertaining to be British, Irish, Northern Irish or all of those together should be respected.
I am Irish, but my Irishness has a huge dollop of what I consider to be culturally British. Now thats not going to change, and the idea that a Unionist can be persuaded not to be a Unionist is downright stupid.
In fact it is too stupid to be patronising.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:10 AMDr Who
I dont know what planet your living on but a UI is just around the corner and its time that you people accept this, the transisiton period has arrived. A deal between the dup and Sinn Fein will ensure a UI for this generation and people like you can either embrace, accept and enjoy it or live a bitter and twisted life, the tide is irreversable but your mindset is not.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:15 AMRealist
“A deal between the dup and Sinn Fein will ensure a UI for this generation “
I have not read any thing as funny since “Wilt” by Tom Sharp.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:19 AMDr Who
Understand that we are happy to embrace those with a british culture in a shared Ireland, you can be as unionist as you want and still play an active role in a United Ireland. Please do not feel that you have to be less british in a United Ireland the only way we will have peace in a United Ireland is if we accept each others views but to claim that a United Ireland is a pipe dream is ludicrous when its clearly on the horizon.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:20 AMDr Who
Its backward prods like you who will make the transition period to a UI more difficult. Sinn Fein has worked hard to build an Ireland of equals for ALL that includes you. Why dont you play an active part in an UI instead of burying your head in the sand, pretending that its 1910 theres a unionst majority, catholics are 2nd class citizens and a UI is a pipe dream, a UI is almost here.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:25 AMDoctor Who: and the idea that a Unionist can be persuaded not to be a Unionist is downright stupid. In fact it is too stupid to be patronising.
Explain this please Doctor Who. I’m afraid it makes no sense to me. I’m guessing you are going to refrain from making any attempts to convert people to unionism, and encourage other unionists to also refrain?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:26 AMunionist propaganda has been really bad now for many years, the dupers claimed they have smashed Sinn Fein when in reality we are bigger and stronger than ever. it amazes me to hear people especailly alex kane claim that the issue of a uI has been put to bed for a generation, it hasnt. Here on this board we have Dr Who claiming a uI is a Republican pipe dream, its not. the unionist population has dwindled and a uI is within our grasp, unionists have nothing to fear from a uI and with the secrecy of the ballot box its likely more uninist will vote for a uI than will openly alude to it. theres room for unionists in a uI but dont deny the inevitable, this time 10 years this coutry will be united and much better off.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:32 AMJames
You make a fair point, but inevitably you talk nonsense. How can Unionism be respected in a UI. The only thing that can be agreeable to both sides is a long term settlement that has transparent North, South and East, West institutions.
The question of soverignty must be put beyond the debate, otherwise we will never move on. The ROI govt. attempted to do this by ending their territorial claim to NI, what they should do next is state they will only consider the soverignty of NI if a 70% majority wish to merge with ROI.
For those who believe that UI will ever come about nevermind by 2015, Gerry has sold you a Big Lie, and you´ve fallen hook, line and sinker for it.
What surprises me the most is why so many of you wish to “give your allegiance to a foreign country”.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:34 AMA united Ireland would have been much easier has the UUP been at the helm, the unionist electorate have only prolonged the inevitable by voting for the DUP in their droves. unionism has been in terminal decline now for many years, in 2001 it lost Fermanagh south Tyrone and west Tyrone, in 2005 it lost south Belfast and last wednesday it lost three further MLA’s.
It may surprise unionists to know but I take no delight in their decline but what I am saying to the DUP is to negotiate a uI now with Sinn Fein when you are in a reasonable strong position, the longer you leave it the smaller and weaker you will be. Now that Sinn Fein is in the asendancy a united Ireland is within reach, why dont we all reach for it together
.Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:39 AMBeardyBoy,
I am a very modest and astute reader of NI politics and I think you’re mostly right there about John Hume.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:41 AMAaron McDaid
It doesn´t bother me that I won´t persuade Sinn Fein / IRA to become Unionists.
What is it that you don´t understand. I am Irish, I am Northern Irish, I am British, that can never change.
I do not not deny you your monolistic view of what it means to be Irish, so why can you not repect my plural view of my Irishness.
Realist
“Its backward prods like you...”
If you where a regular contributor or reader of these threads over the last few years you will know I am neither backwards or Protestant.
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:45 AMDr Who
I’m glad that you feel able to talk to me albeit over a messageboard. I dont feel transparent North, South East West instittions are acceptable within a 32 county state. What we in Sinn Fein are proposing is a centralised government run from Dublin with jurisdiction over all of Ireland. Meetings have concluded that stormont will be done away with completely although we don’t want to make unionst feel under threat so a political headquarters of some sorts has been proposed for North Antrim possibly Ballymena. A UI offers great possibilities for all of us, we intend to downsize the civil service within the North, eliminate water taxes and house rates. New roads will be build and it is rumoured at HQ that an all Ireland train service will be built covering areas that have been deprived of this in the past such as Fermanagh and Tyrone. Obviously at the moment we are keeping our heads down as we need this 5 billion payout from the British government in order to succesfully make the transition. A UI will also be good for student within the North who have taken out student loans as these will be bansihed within a UI.
Gerry Adams has not sold us a lie, republicanism is on the advance, for the first time ever dates have been mentioned as to when the UI will come about and the rumours are between 2012 and 2020. We need people like you to join us and build up a strong 32 county state that is free from sectarianism and bigotry. Do you want to live in peace and freedom or under a corrupt british goverment?
Posted by on Mar 12, 2007 @ 01:57 AM
