Tuesday, March 18, 2008
The carrot has been dangled…
PAT Doherty‘s interview in the Guardian is being interpreted as an offer to the DUP - permit the devolution of policing and justice, and in exchange the IRA army council will be disbanded. “I have no doubt, given all of the issues that we have resolved from the very beginning, all of the issues that you may have thought were insurmountable, … on the British side … the unionist side and the republican side, if we are serious about moving this whole process forward … then we can deal with any issue,” Doherty who was named as a member of the IRA leadership in 2002, said. “If you look at any of what were perceived as insurmountable issues some time back, all of them were resolved. I have no doubt that issues can be resolved if there is dialogue.”
Belfast Gonzo @ 04:38 AM
‘He (Blair)asked if Adams could go back and tell his people there was no possibility of a united Ireland. Adams said the question was rather how he could bring his people along. He had to show them there was an alternative way forward.’
Posted by elvis parker on Mar 18, 2008 @ 02:07 PM
elvis… where does this quote come from??
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 03:00 PMDisbanding the Army council is largely symbolic, after all what’s an army if it doesn’t have an guns? Granted not everything was decommissioned but I’m sure there are guns about in the unlikely event of a repeat of 1969. SF long ago accepted the need to pursue a non-violent path so this inevitably is where it ends up.
Here’s a question though: why don’t SF link the ending of the Army council to loyalist decommissioning?
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 03:15 PMkensei: It isn’t just immaterial, it’s unverifiable and impossible to enforce.
Careful now - you could talk the DUP out of a possible deal with that sort of niggle! But not me - from my POV statements from P O’Neill and SF are the key components.
kensei: something for nothing.
Great - after 15 years of talks, a win-win scenario. Don’t knock it. You do realise that the DUP also wants the devolution of P&J;?
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 03:32 PMBut does this mean we can decommission the TUV now?
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 03:36 PMMs Wiz,
1) the Provos dont consider the loyalist ‘death squads’ as their equal 2) never ask (openly) for something you may never get 3) that would give the loyalists a veto over whatever Provos want in return.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 03:38 PMPat just throwing in another mix as according to
Martin Mc Guiness, when asked by republicans who want answers to many incidents spanning back to the early 80`s has replied that he doesn`t know if there is an army council anymore and that he wouldn`t even know anyone to contact in relation to same.
Very odd as Conor murphy was able to make contact within a very short time of the murder of Paul Quinn and now it appears Pat also has a line of communication at his disposal.
Maybe the republicans with the questions should have another go via Brendan Duddy.Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 03:55 PMNevin,
the PRM AC manages all aspects of the movement: politics, shootings and bombings, organised crime and ‘civic justice’; it’s the ‘legitimate government’ of the island of Ireland.Strictly speaking, I thought the CIRA AC was the “legitimate government” of Ireland.
The PRM AC is merely a blow in.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 04:08 PMIt was, as many will remember, the removal of P and J powers back to Westminster that lead to Brian Faulkner resigning and the Stormont Parliament ending. .
Unionists have a strong desire to have these p and J. powers returned when they are satisfied that sufficient confidence exists in their community for that to happen. The responsibility is on the Republican movement to create the necessary conditions.
The Unionists will not be paying for any more concessions from SF/IRA. There is no place in a democratic society for private armies-Republican or Loyalist or for those who demand concessions for taking the actions that could be expected of any citizen..Gordon Brown can help.The confidence level of Unionists will be assisted by a better economic package than we have at present.It would also help to have the PSNI appropriately resourced. It would be helpful if there was an end to fifty fifty recruitment to the PSNI.
Others have a part to play.It would help if those who racheted up tension at interfaces in the marching season would be more tolerant of Unionist/British culture; It would be helpful if we had the Parades Commission replaced by a more effective system of determination that assumes the right to process.Only a very few parades are contentious.Gerry Adams selected those deliberately to create instability. He could help also by following the example of Dr.Paisley and exiting the political scene. He could go to Australia and the USA and do the well paid tour thing.
It is also time for the Republican people to embrace democracy freely because it is a good form of government and the right thing to do. They should demand an end to the mandatory coalition form of Executive in favour of voluntary coalition with an effective opposition system.We need the Republican movement to accept that in the Unionist eyes and in terms of Law and Justice their armed struggle was for the greater part,evil,sectarian and criminal.How can Republicans defend la Mon or Enniskillen?.
The better future we all want will not be built on deceit;dishonesty;and denial or in trying to make the world and young Republicans believe that history started with the Civil Rights movement in the late sixties.
T.RuthPosted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 04:31 PMAnd there we thought we had nothing left to conceed
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 04:38 PM“Others have a part to play.It would help if those who racheted up tension at interfaces in the marching season would be more tolerant of Unionist/British culture;”
It’s heritage if anything and not really culture. And heritage is about taking an historic situation and contextualising it into the future or present to fit contemporary circumstances, which are obviously without the true conditions appropriated at the heritage’s origin.
So with that in mind, unionists need to open up discussions about relevance of walking up streets with changed demographics whose residents, if communicated with, may allow it to happen. After all that’s democracy and it’s not as if Orangeism is without a home in Northern Ireland, it is and can be expressed, but is circumscribed through its beliefs which places its own set of limits due to its own conditionality of membership.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 05:04 PMHave the records of the Provos, such as membership, financial files, intra member documents, communications with other organizations, etc., been handed over to the government? That would be a better way of assuring intentions than some guys saying we no longer belong to a council.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 05:11 PMIt was, as many will remember, the removal of P and J powers back to Westminster that lead to Brian Faulkner resigning and the Stormont Parliament ending. .
Unionists have a strong desire to have these p and J. powers returned when they are satisfied that sufficient confidence exists in their community for that to happen.Things have changed beyond recognition since then. Prior to the removal of those powers, the Stormont Home Affairs Minister was the de facto operational commander of the RUC. That situation can never return. So some maybe hankering after the old days but are going to be disappointed when P&J;powers are returned.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 05:17 PMFor months the TUV minded among the NI populace have been pushing the main point of the existence of the army council as their main argument against the DUP being in government.
Suddenly when the disbandment of the Army Council is raised by somebody other than the DUP, therefore beginning to seem possible, the TUV’s are out telling us it is invisible, intangible etc. etc. and therefore it doesn’t matter.... so what’s the problem with government now then?
IMO, the disbandment of the Army Council would be a momentous step. Those who were members of the Army Council may continue to “socialise” together but in a movement steeped in symbolism, this would be the ultimate symbolic step… winding up the body that they used to believe was the legitimate government of a 32 county Ireland. Once they issue the statement, the die is cast no matter what practicalities exist.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 05:45 PMT.ruth
“We need the Republican movement to accept that in the Unionist eyes and in terms of Law and Justice their armed struggle was for the greater part,evil,sectarian and criminal”
The first part should not be a problem after all it’s a free country ( apart from the residual Brtish presence ), but with the 2nd part if you will pardon the expression you are indulging in a bit of unionist political mastrurbation there as the 3 relevant governements share the Provo view of the ‘troubles’ being part of the overall politcal/historical difficulties between Britain and Ireland - hence Unionists being ecouraged/cajoled into accepting the GFA/STA.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 06:20 PMGeorge, Mitchel McLaughlin SF MLA agreed with Michael McDowell’s description and AFAIK Mitchell has no links to CIRA.
I met the McLaughlins in Ballycastle on the day the lifeboat was brought back on a barge from Rathlin and I came away with the impression that it was probably the wife that shaved off his ‘tache!!
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 06:55 PMNew Yorker
A clandestine guerilla army is hardly likely to have a bunch of inter office memos laying around.
I would assume that there is little if any paper trail to be found so taking their word for it will have to suffice
As for financial records, while there are undoubtedly some around I do not believe they will ever be turned over by any one to any one
Thats why I don’t think they will ever go away except in name. The South Armagh Supper Club has a nice ring to it
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 08:05 PMSteve
We might be quite surprised what records they have. Some records can be reconstructed by involved individuals, such as a membership list. The point is that with such records the government can better judge and monitor their intentions: Are they fully in and part of a government that will uphold and enforce the law, or using government for ulterior purposes?
A way to accomplish this would be for the government to draw up a list of required information and name the Deputy First Minister to head a task force to retrieve the information in a specified period of time.
This thing has been dragged out for ten years when it should have been wound up in a year or less. Don’t you think it is time things moved on?
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 08:42 PMSteve
“South Armagh Supper Club has a nice ring to it”
Tell that to the Quinn family.
It is time for Republicans to have a real hard look at how and why those of us who are Irish and British hold fast to our Britishness.Time for Republicans to study a little of their pre 1966 History and justify their commitment to the physical force tradition of getting your political point across to your neighbour.Time to stop feeding Republican youth on myths and legends..
What part of a war was the incineration of the Irish kennel club at La Mon.?
T.Ruth.Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 08:55 PMt. ruth you seem to have a very one sided view of what has been going on and until you wise up you can not be taken seriously.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 09:51 PMT.ruth, here comes the blanket bombing of Dresden again! Surely you are familiar with that collie club wipeout, nach bhfuil?
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 10:28 PMNew Yorker
Either you are being willfully stupid or you just dont understand how Guerilla armies operate and in particular how insurgencies work. There will have been as close to 0 paper recordsd as possible simply because paper records can fall into the hands of the enemy, So not surpisingly there are no records available. Secondly you can not compel these people to bear witness against themselves so regardless of who you apoint there will be no information to come backT. Ruth
You show me a single spec of evidence linking the PIRA to this crime and i will condemn them to the roof till then its just so much unionist wet dream. As for pre 66 they shouldnt look to close at it as it is perfect justification for physical force republicanism. You got used to them living on their knees wo when they chose to die on their feet instead you were unprepared. Unionism is the root cause of republicanism
What part of war was Bloody Sunday, what part of war was Omagh, what part of war was the Butchers, what part of war is shooting toddlers with plastic bullets? Give off on the whatabouteryPosted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 10:30 PMSteve,
are you suggesting the Provos didnt bomb Le Mon? or are you talking about the Quinn murder ? Although there is no proof the Southern and Northern intelligence reports suggest former/current IRA member involvment in the Quinn killing. The Republican movements reaction to this has been denial and trying to widgery the victim i.e. blame him for his own death.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 10:41 PMBad luck, Steve. Provisional Alliance admitted responsibility for La Mon and said warning was inadequate on 19th Feb 1978.Also have to disagree with ‘Unionism is the root cause of Republicanism’. Republicanism is not a disorder/disease but a political tradition in Ireland with a long and proud history.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 10:42 PM“I would assume that there is little if any paper trail to be found so taking their word for it will have to suffice”
Strangely enough according to Moloney the IRA pretty meticulous at minute taking at Army Council and Executive meetings.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 10:43 PM“according to Moloney” certainly has a ring of truth to it. Who took the minutes? Were they in Irish?How did the OIRA Army Council become the Provisional Alliance Army Council? Isn’t it all great crack? And to crown it all the W(elsh)RA has our guns.
Posted by on Mar 18, 2008 @ 10:51 PM
