Monday, April 14, 2008

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1. A Phrionsa Eoghain,

   It is of this reason that I do not lament the ‘flight’ of the earls as much as poets of old.

   They would have gone down the same road.

   Posted by  on Apr 19, 2008 @ 06:15 PM

2. Prince Eoghan ,

   The ancient clan system was anachronistic to the development of a property owning industrial and commercial based economy . The Highland clearances whereby the indigenous gaelic speakers were forced out to Canada especially the MacFarlanes , McGregors and the other more recalitrant clans .

   ‘ Several generations of marrying outsiders and living apart from their people led to the situation whereby they could happily force their people off their land. Sheep and the profits on promise ensured the clans either went to their death or boarded coffin ships to the new world.’

   I don’t know about the Scots clans boarding ‘coffin ships’ . I know that some of the Irish famine emigrants boarded ‘coffin ships’ so called because in close confined spaces diseases like dysentery, cholera etc could spread easily . The fact that ‘millions’ made it to the new world is testimony to the fact that an effort was made to get the people to the farther shore alive.

   In today’s world we see elements of the same movement of people/peoples around the globe again forced into migration for a variety of reasons primarily economic .  I read the German government is giving unemployed Germans a grant to go elsewhere (anywhere) for a job -germany has 8% unemployment . Poor third world countries like say Zimbabwe don’t have the money the Germans have .

   People in today’s western world have of course some protection against political or financial tyranny but only if they exercise their democratic rights and demand that their elected politicians represent their interests rather the interests of the major corporations and financial houses . A tall order of course but the present upcoming recession should purge people in the west of the notion that an economy based primarily on financial services is going to deliver an increased standard of living . Quite the contrary . All it does is increase the amount of private debt with the kind of consequences now being seen in the USA and UK and to a lesser extent in Ireland/Northern Ireland (but that will come )

   Posted by  on Apr 19, 2008 @ 07:36 PM

3. “The fact that ‘millions’ made it to the new world is testimony to the fact that an effort was made to get the people to the farther shore alive.”

   Well, they certainly made an effort to get the ship and crew there and back.
   The cargo really wasn’t that important or they wouldn’t have gained the nickname Coffin Ships.

   Prince Eoghain

   Get your own coffin ships;)

   Posted by  on Apr 20, 2008 @ 12:46 AM

4. Phrionsa Eoghain

   Aye, i like half of it. I feel that I have just been reborn.

   >>The ancient clan system was anachronistic to the development of a property owning industrial and commercial based economy.<<

   Uprooting communities en-masse, and decimating the Highlands, partially if not wholly allied to other factors destroying a whole indigenous lifestyle . And replacing it with sheep, wilderness and more recently Latvian, Russki and other itinerant workers, and English white settlers was a great success? Funny the Highlands would probably be ranked amongst the poorest regions in Europe, even taking into consideration the newer additions to the European community. Highlanders have proved adaptable in all fields wherever they went, to suggest that they perhaps could not have adapted on their own land is without merit

   >>I don’t know about the Scots clans boarding ‘coffin ships’.<<

   Glad I was here to tell you of it then. To be clear, are you disputing it?

   >>The fact that ‘millions’ made it to the new world is testimony to the fact that an effort was made to get the people to the farther shore alive.<<

   White man speak with forked tongue!

   Greenflag, some of those doing the evicting in their *ahem* altruism even paid for their peoples passage. There are whole communities across Canada and NZ especially that are testimony to those *kind* land owners. However a check of the manifest beginning and end would show that even these altruistic voyages had everything in common with what we would class as coffin ships. Ship masters, scrupulous or no would happily accept the money only to provide poor accommodation and conditions, often limited and poor quality food. With the high mortality that accompanies the resulting weakening and disease. To suggest as you seem to be doing that the Highlanders were not put on or forced by circumstance to take coffin ships is beneath you.

   Obs

   >>Get your own coffin ships;)<<

   If Greenflag hadn’t so helpfully hinted as much I wouldn’t have known it. There was plenty to go around ye know.

   Posted by  on Apr 20, 2008 @ 12:39 PM

5. Phrionsa Eoghan

   Always room on a coffin ship for another Celt.
   Didn’t know when they were well off;)

   Posted by  on Apr 20, 2008 @ 02:01 PM

6. From my point of view of someone from a Cape Breton highland family, the clearances were frankly the best thing that could have happened. My ancestors went from being basicly slaves to the whims of a man simply because he was born “chief” to being able to make their own future. The fact that the most common mother tounge of the fathers of confederation was Gaelic, that our first Prime Minister was a MacDonald and that most of the rich merchants in Montreal were highland men shows that we did pretty good. Sorry, bit off topic, but I’ve lived in the highlands, and they’re great, but man I’m glad I was born a Canadian.

   Posted by  on Apr 20, 2008 @ 03:09 PM

7. Sorley

   I refer you to;

   “Highlanders have proved adaptable in all fields wherever they went”

   Fair do’s you are a product of what truthfully may be called an ill wind, many good things have come of the bad. my own background is due to an ill wind also.

   I had cause to be working in the highlands last month, Oban to be exact. I was asked my family background by a family I had cause to mix with. I related an old story of a Highland tradition which included having children brought up in the families of close relations, eg an uncle and auntie would bring up a nephew and this led to ever more strengthened family ties, handy in warfare. The family I was with spoke Gaelic but had not heard of this tradition, a tradition that only died out about probably 200 hundred odd years ago. They were embarrassed that they had not heard of it. Cut a long story short, we had all learned about Norman motte and Bailey castles, King Henry and Queen Lizzie in school. Our own Scottish history and native languages were sadly neglected, to the extent that we may as well belong to a foreign country.

   Moral of the story is one familiar to those wishing to enliven and strenghthen the language and culture of Ireland. If there is no-one left to tell the story, or interpret the meaning of things properly. Then we miss out on a huge chunk of things that academia, no matter how they try cannot replace/replicate.

   Obs

   Good to have another comrade on board this coffin ship ;)

   Posted by  on Apr 20, 2008 @ 07:06 PM

8. prince eoghain,

   ‘To suggest as you seem to be doing that the Highlanders were not put on or forced by circumstance to take coffin ships is beneath you.’

   I was not suggesting that the Highlanders were not forced out . The same trend was happening all over the UK to a greater or lesser extent . What was different about the highlands as was the case with the South and West of Ireland was that there was no ‘other’ local economy to employ the people . Those forced off ‘commons land’ in England were able to make their way to nearby cities to make a living in the new industries .What was also different about the Scottish Highlands was the ‘destruction’ of it’s traditional way of life which of course also effected the gaelic language . Just as in Ireland 100 years later many Scotsmen were only too glad to see the ‘ships’ take hundreds of thousands ‘ away to a new life elsewhere. It was an age of ‘raw capitalism ‘ as the phrase goes . If sheep paid more than people then sheep it was .

   The Highlands also suffered during the 1840’s famine but not to the same extent as Ireland and the First World War killed off disproportionately a lot of Gaelic speakers from Argyll and the Highlands . When I say disproportionately I mean in terms of the population of the areas they came from as oposed to say the number of casualties from the densely populated parts of England and Wales .

   Perhaps a more ‘independent ‘ Scotland can try to revive the Scots Gaelic language but as we have learnt in Ireland the harsh fact of life is that if ‘sheep’ provide a better return than people then ‘sheep’ it is . I’m speaking figuratively of course . For sheep just substitute ROI (return on investment ).

   Will it ever change ?. About the same time when human nature does or when peoples and nations realise that while capitalism works better than communism in the provision of goods and services it does not seem to be the case when those services are of an educational or health/medical nature well at least not for everybody which presumably should be the democratic ideal .

   Posted by  on Apr 20, 2008 @ 10:04 PM

9. Tony - good - strange I’m working in London with two Gaelic speakers - one Scots from Skye and one from Donegal. Send the Saxons home I say!

   Posted by  on Apr 20, 2008 @ 10:31 PM

10. Prince Eoghan
    The Black Watch are as fine a group of men you would ever care to meet.

    They extol the virtues of the United Kingdom in the same way as the UDR/RIR or the Welsh Guards.

    Pity the same cannot be said for the pathetic “Irish Defence Forces” for the RoI.
    Still shouting “how high” when Israel or their proxy militias say jump.

    Posted by  on Apr 20, 2008 @ 10:36 PM

11. “They extol the virtues of the United Kingdom in the same way as the UDR/RIR..”

    Yes, redundant.

    Posted by  on Apr 21, 2008 @ 07:07 AM

12. Regarding the diet of the Gaelic Irish circa 1183, the Norman-Welsh Geraldus Cambrensis (Gerald the Welshman) chronicled the exploits of the Normans in Ireland. While he gives a rather biased account, showing contempt for the Irish (as all colonisers do of their conquered subjects) he gives a rather favourable description of what the Irish ate.  He described the people as living by farming, stock-raising, fishing and hunting. The country’s mild and moist climate and its plentiful grass made it suitable for breeding cattle, horses, sheep and pigs. Cattle formed the chief wealth of the medieval Irish and were used almost like currency. Giraldus recorded that the ‘tillage land is exuberantly rich yielding large crops of corn, herds of cattle graze on the mountains, the woods abound with wild animals’.  He states that the Irish sowed wheat, oats, rye and barley and besides bread they used meat, fish, cheese, butter, fruit, nuts and vegetables, and were fond of milk and mead. 
    All the ingredients of quite a healthy diet. Giraldus, while no lauder of the Irish says that the ‘young men grew tall, with fresh complexions’.

    Regarding the diets of Hiberno-Norse Dublin circa 980 onwards, archaeological evidence found shows that the people had a rather healthy and varied diet too. Information about diet in Dublin came from studying the faecal remains taken from cesspits at the Viking settlement that was unearthed at Woodquay in the 1970’s. 
    Evidence shows that the inhabitants had a fairly balanced diet consisting of wholemeal bread, fruit, nuts (especially hazelnuts), beans, meat, fish, shellfish, eggs and dairy produce (including goats milk), honey and sloe juice. Literary evidence for the period also refers to brewing, as well as the use of porridge, salt, herbs and leafy vegetables. Evidence shows too that the inhabitants of Dublin consumed a lot of fish and shellfish. Fish weirs and traps were used as well as line fishing. Lead line weights have been discovered proving this. Fish may also have been caught from boats out at sea too. Wooden net floats and stone sinkers were found.  Larger sea animals such as porpoise were also hunted.  An 11th century Arabic account tells of Dubliners killing ‘baby whales’ for food. Animal bone analysis has found that cattle were the most frequent species in the Dublin diet followed by pigs and sheep. Laying hens were kept in some plots and other species of bird identified include geese, swan and duck. Presumably all such Norse settlements in Ireland were the same.

    Just some evidence then that the Irish enjoyed a varied diet in medieval times. How uncanny indeed that the potato became the sole food of the people centuries later. Such diverse diets as described above somehow became out of bounds to the populace as the spud became the staple diet and the Irish people were reduced to an appalling state of impoverishment. Any indigenous Irish food traditions were no doubt probably lost as the welfare of the people was drastically diminished. Recurring famines as well as the Great Famine itself were detrimental to an already restricted, deprived and landless people.

    Posted by  on Apr 21, 2008 @ 08:02 AM

13. “Information about diet in Dublin came from studying the faecal remains taken from cesspits at the Viking settlement that was unearthed at Woodquay in the 1970’s.”

    Wonderful - that’s what Slugger is about!!!!

    Posted by  on Apr 21, 2008 @ 08:32 AM

14. Dewi

    Brilliant observation! Too true.

    >>Just as in Ireland 100 years later many Scotsmen were only too glad to see the ‘ships’ take hundreds of thousands ‘ away to a new life elsewhere.<<

    Aye, much in the same way Darfuri’s are only too glad to seek the joys of living in mass refugee camps.

    In the words of my sainted Maw;

    “Dear doctor in Donegal!”

    Greenflag, just because many of our people of that time were hardy and ultimately prospered against the odds pretty much wherever they went/were shipped to. Does not mean that it was an experience that they were glad to undertake, or even wanted to. Being forced off your ancestral land, by those who were ultimately foreigners is a galling concept, and caused great misery. The Highlands are deserted wastelands, seriously underpopulated. This was not always so.

    Major

    The kapos are remembered with great affection also I believe.

    Posted by  on Apr 21, 2008 @ 07:18 PM

15. Wow, that is really out of line. So what you’re saying is that anyone who has served in a highland regiment is the equivalent of a Jewish concentration camp guard in Nazi Germany?

    Posted by  on Apr 21, 2008 @ 08:34 PM

16. If not, maybe you want to clarify that, because that iss pretty unfair towards a lot of men and women.

    Posted by  on Apr 21, 2008 @ 08:35 PM

17. Sorley

    I just about understand your bewilderment. I of course do not and could not refer to the black watch of today, happily fighting imperialist wars for Her Brittanic Majesties government, wars the majority of Scots are against. However should you realise the context and era to which i refer, then the black watch were raised to help police(read persecute) the highlands and her people for outsiders who had all but declared war on a subjugated people. Post 46 these proud Heilan men were the only ones(apart from royalty) legally allowed to wear the tartan. Perhaps I am being unfair on Kapos, since they probably had no choice by and large to do what they did. The men who joined the black watch probably did have a choice.

    Posted by  on Apr 22, 2008 @ 09:03 AM

18. Ah, then that explains it. You see, I was just a little tripped up by the fact that the Black Watch has about 50 battle honours from the second world war. You know, fighting against the Nazis. That and the fact that thosuands of men in other highland regiments gave their lives fighting against these same Nazis, the ones whom the Kapos were collaborating with. Then I remembered that your boys, the real men like (IRA chief of staff) Seán Russell die on nazi U-boats, collaborating like...well gosh the kapos! For some reason I think that you might not agree with that.
    As for the 18th century the Grants. Munros, Campbells and others didn’t have a choice in the matter of joining. Just like the men they were fighting against in the MacDonalds or the Chattan confederation, if you didn’t go you had the chief’s thugs burn your shack. The truth is no matter how much people want to romantize the old days, the people existed to protect the Chiefs cattle and property. The Chief lived like a king, and everyone else was there to make sure he could. Then when order came to the Highlands, the chiefs had no need for men to protect their property from raiding, or to go on raids so they got rid of them. Simple as that. Now I don’t know about you, but if I was given the choice to be a slave to some guy simply because he was born of the right family, or to have freedom to make my own way in life, I’ll always choose the latter. Odd, I’m almost sounding like a republican aren’t I?

    Posted by  on Apr 22, 2008 @ 03:13 PM

19. Sorley

    You have the makings some useful salient points there before being silly enough to unmask yourself somewhat.

    >>As for the 18th century the Grants. Munros, Campbells and others didn’t have a choice in the matter of joining.<<

    I just don’t believe this to be true.

    >>Odd, I’m almost sounding like a republican aren’t I?<<

    Well you have claimed to be a Cape Breton of Highland descent, however some of the above comments suggest that you are just another Unionist trying to put a spin on things. What the frig has the IRA or the deposed King of England’s role with the Nazi regime got to do with comparing the black watch’s treatment of their people with Kapos? The Kapos policed their people in the camps, the BW policed their people in the Highlands, simple!

    >>The Chief lived like a king, and everyone else was there to make sure he could.<<

    In feudal society all tenants who lived on the land of the local lord or big wig owed him a service of some sort. Some paid with crops and livestock, some with labour, others with military service, money etc. Highland society worked under a structure whereby familial ties were the driving force behind any events. Some clans grouped together for protection, political ties rather than familial. It was in their own interests that any and all ventures were successful. There was no turning people off the land that would not fight, say in lowland Scotland or England. To suggest that they were slaves is too ridiculous for words, I could ask for proof, but it is patently absurd, and just not true. I have never ever heard of clan chiefs living like kings. Well, not unless you count the chiefs and subsequent generations bought and sold for English gold. Gold that was put in the pockets of the volunteers of the black watch.

    Posted by  on Apr 22, 2008 @ 04:03 PM

20. ...."Because we were bought and sold for English gold, such a ‘Parcel of Rogues’ in a Nation.”

    Robbie Burns.

    Posted by  on Apr 22, 2008 @ 04:18 PM

21. Oh come on, I’m no unionist buddy. I just found your use of the word Kapo in reference to members of the black watch offensive, so I thought I’d point out how banal the comparsion was. “The Kapos policed their people in the camps, the BW policed their people in the Highlands, simple!” No it isn’t. It’s just cheap rhetoric, trying to hitch the shit that happened to our ancestors 7 or 8 generations ago to the Holocaust, and trying to make it look somehow similar. I’ve had many family members die who were part of highland regiments (we still have at least 10 in the CF) so maybe I was a bit touchy. Either way on that issue, I doubt either of us will change our minds.

    As for the rest I read in Prebble of chiefs putting out their people who wouldn’t fight, don’t have the book here right now so I can’t check his references at the moment. Slaves was probaly not the best word, but living as a serf in a feudal society leaves you as little better than one. I mean honestly tell me right here, would you rather be living in a black house herding cows all day and engaging in raids, or living in a society like the rest of western Europe had at the time? There was an interesting article in St. Francis Xavier Universities celtic studies magazine years ago(I think it might be online, I’ll see if I an find it) about how in Cape Breton the new Highland settlers pretty much abandoned the traditional clan loyalties, and most of the traditional way of life aside from the Gaelic language. This also happened in Bruce, Grey and Glengarry counties in Ontario, all areas of lots of highland settlement. Simply put, they dumped all that clan bullshit as soon as they were free of it, so I really doubt the common people were that attached to it. I know I haven’t covered everything but this is a lot of writing for now. I’ll cover the other stuff as soon as can.

    Posted by  on Apr 22, 2008 @ 07:54 PM

22. >>No it isn’t. It’s just cheap rhetoric, trying to hitch the shit that happened to our ancestors 7 or 8 generations ago to the Holocaust, and trying to make it look somehow similar. I’ve had many family members die who were part of highland regiments (we still have at least 10 in the CF) so maybe I was a bit touchy. Either way on that issue, I doubt either of us will change our minds.<<

    What we have had in Scotland IS a partial holocaust of culture. Sure there are elements of truth in what you say there, although it was an attempt at a valid comparison meant to be easily understood. I make no attempt to ally the scale of both events. I understand your emotion also, though I would argue that you have let sympathy and no little pride for later generations cloud your ability to comprehend the suffering of generations past. At the moment a kind of slow low level revival is on, from more and more using Gaelic names, to the Scottish government implementing legislation aimed at invigorating the Highlands.

    >>I mean honestly tell me right here, would you rather be living in a black house herding cows all day and engaging in raids, or living in a society like the rest of western Europe had at the time?<<

    You might have read me wrong, most of Europe was living in a feudal society, even Scotland and England I’d guess upto the British civil wars. Highland society had different ties, not ones bound by master and serf. However I would be interested in hearing of your evidence of servitude in the Highlands anytime.

    >>they dumped all that clan bullshit as soon as they were free of it<<

    Well it was their clan chiefs who forced them off the land. Chiefs who were as foreign to them by that juncture as the aboriginal indians they came across in Canada.

    Sorley, without coming across as patronising I reckon you need to expand your reading material. There is plenty of martial shit out there designed to make us proud of fighting for our English masters. Honest, it helps to read alternate views, perhaps my views have came as a surprise also. I am not alone, far from it, in fact the only reason the SNP government have not gone all Republican here is that many are still tied up being proud of said false military traditions and the in-bred German royalty that associates itself to it.

    Gréagóir O’ Frainclín

    If only I could have a go at his nocturnal habits now and then.

    Posted by  on Apr 23, 2008 @ 08:52 AM
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