Monday, April 14, 2008
“Ten thousand years of history crammed into 50 minutes..”
If the first programme was likely to offend the young-Earthers, and the second the not necessarily mutually exclusive grouping of neo-creationists, the third might work for everyone else. The BBC NI natural history series Blueprint ends tonight by tackling People, BBC1 9pm. Those more easily digested clips will be online later. As presenter Will Crawley says it on his blog
“The programme starts at Mountsandel, near Coleraine, the site of the earliest [known] human settlement in Ireland. We use computer imaging technology to rebuild the Mountsandel settlement, then follow the story of our Bronze Age ancestors as they made their home here. From Mountsandel, the story widens to take in a great sweep of history, including the ancient kings of Ireland, the arrival of Christianity, the Plantation, the Famine, and the urbanisation of modern Ireland. Ten thousand years of history crammed into 50 minutes of television.”
There might be some earlier supernatural beliefs mentioned.. and they might even attempt to explain why there is no Celtic section in the National Museum of Ireland. Oh, but don’t expect an apology for what the Vikings did 1,000 years ago.. Adds Well it certainly benefited, in comparison with the first two programmes, from dealing with a relatively short period of history. Still a bit thread-bare in parts though. But amibitious. And that’s worth applauding.
Pete Baker @ 08:07 PM
Peter - waht’s with your thing about not calling things Celtic - surely it’s as good a word as any? Have you a better one?
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:02 PMMy thing, Dewi?
It’s the National Museum of Ireland’s thing. ;op
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:07 PMPete - but they ain’t got a better word - it’s a bunch of people with linguistic connections - what’s the big deal?
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:09 PMIt’s about scientific principles, Dewi.
The term is a modern invention.
So call yourself celtic by all means.
But it’s a term that doesn’t apply, and would not be recognised, by any of the people in our history - to whom some seek to apply it.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:15 PMWrong Peter - languages of these islands have connections established by Edward Llwyd in C17 - he termed those people Celtic - for want of a better word. The connections apply whatever the word. And this ain’t a political point believe it or not - merely factual.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:20 PMDewi
I’ll just add that the programme didn’t deal with that objection.
Instead they just pointed out that there is the complete absence of any evidence for an invasion by the Celtic tribes of Europe.
And then outlined the development of what is now termed Celtic artwork in Ireland.
In particular the influence of Germanic animal art and Viking knotwork.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:24 PMDewi
“he termed those people Celtic”
Indeed. See the link in the original post.
17th Century = modern invention.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:26 PMPete - you are preaching...it’s just a descriptive word - Llwyd used it to describe a bunch of closely connected languages - a fantastic bit of scholarly study at the time. My only point is that “Celtic” will do as well as any other word.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:32 PM...and believe it or not he would have rather have used the word “British” (which before that we used to use) but it had got hijacked by a bunch of Prod planters......Sorry
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:36 PM“My only point is that “Celtic” will do as well as any other word.”
To describe those languages in the modern age, probably.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:38 PM“...and believe it or not he would have rather have used the word “British” (which before that we used to use) but it had got hijacked by a bunch of Prod planters......Sorry”
No need to apologise, Dewi. That’s a similar point to the one made in the links in the original post.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 09:42 PMDewi,
Actually I thought the linguistic elements were something that wasnt done too well in the show.
I mean they could have got a linguist in rather than an archaelogist.
They should have pointed out that a brythonic celtic tongue has been overlaid (or radically altered) with a q-type tongue.
PS the original political conoctation of the word ‘celtic’ was perjorative, no?
PPS, I have never thanked ye Welsh men for the nice nick-name, Goidel. Thanks, I’ll keep it anyway!
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 10:04 PM“PS the original political conoctation of the word ‘celtic’ was perjorative, no? “
No - academic - in the good sense of being scholarly. My only point in all above was that it was as good a word as any other - Nos Da.... and why does everyone on Slugger speak Welsh?
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 10:46 PMThis has been on of the greatest disasters in BBC NI history, given the fortune spent on it and promo. Week 2’s viewing figures were half of those for week 1. Make of that what you will.
Posted by on Apr 14, 2008 @ 11:03 PMhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TKX4m_l1_Qk&feature=related
Can’t help it - and apologise - but Cerys is home!
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 12:28 AMLoved this series and everyone I know is talking about it. More of this please BBCNI. I am no fan of the tv license fee, but this is worth it. Unlike quiz shows which are best left to commercial tv.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 02:38 AMp.s., a comment on your use of square brackets Peter. You add the word [known] to the description of Mountsandel. Fair enough, it is the earliest known human settlement. Let’s not get pedantic here though. You could just as easily add the world [known] to every archaeological or historical fact.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 02:40 AM“PS the original political conoctation of the word ‘celtic’ was perjorative, no?”
The term “American” was also a British perjorative that British colonials never called themselves at the time.
Pete is right that we should be careful about applying modern names to people who wouldn’t have used the word themselves.
PS, Yes, I’m sure that “American” is still a perjorative! :)
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 04:43 AMIsn’t the problem with using the word ‘Celtic’ was that it properly applied to a different set of people from middle Europe who created the Hallstat culture ?
And that the Irish (and other Atlantic Isles peoples :o) ) were lumped in with the Celts when really, they weren’t ?
Because no-one in the middle europe survives calling themselves Celtic anymore, it is easy for the Irish, who were designated that from outside incorrectly, to use the term Celtic, especially when no other word exists to designate the pre anglo/saxon/jute invasions ?
after so much usage the term sticks, even if, technically, it is incorrect. IMHO.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 05:48 AMBore Da Dewi.
Well, as you say I think celtic (<Keltoi) is as good a name as anything for the job that is in it.
But as far as I am concerned the use to the word celtic and its savage connoctations were popularised by the the English, French etc, regardless of academic considerations.
There is a good book on the subject, ‘Iarsmaí Teanga’ by Torlach Mac Con Mide.
Of course, Gaelic speaking peoples refered to themselves as Gaels, but more commonly used clann and tribal disignations, they had no idea that Gaelic was related to Brythonic.
Let us not forget that when the English began to tolerate the Irish language in the Education system they insisted on calling it Celtic.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 09:35 AMThere are two very good accesible and user friendly publications that are on sale now for all to read and learn about our ancient past…
‘THE ATLANTEAN IRISH’ by Bob Quinn.
‘BLOOD OF THE ISLES’ by Bryan Sykes.
Briefly, conclusions drawn by modern archaeologists and geneticists say that we, in these Isles including Northern France and Northern Spain are all basically comprised of the same genetic material. The ‘Celts’, the Picts, etc ... all have the same bedrock of genes. There is only a ‘dent’ as such in this genetic makeup of England from the successful waves of invasions.
Piecing the bits of the jigsaw together, it may be the case that the very first people came to these shores from Spain via the Atlantic seaboard as well. There is strong evidence proving that Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Britanny, and the Basque region has had seafairing connections that date back thousands of years. Hence, the common bond with language, music and culture etc… These bonds can be linked too with North Africa, hence in the programme last night it was mentioned that a skeleton of a Barbery ape was found in the ancient Navan Fort or Emain Mhaca as gaeilge, at Co Armagh.
Also similar ancient stone constructions can be found in all these places, ie similar spirals carved on the ancient stones at Newgrange, Co Meath can be found in North Africa.
So the myth of the Milesians could have some truth.Recently Europes oldest human was unearted in a region in Spain.
It is the case too, that the Irish language did not just arrive with these assortments of people called the ‘Celts’ but evolved over time from a much older language that was established here already thousands of years ago. So the ‘Celtic’ languages of these islands may have have derived from an older language.
Pardon the plug, but all this and more is explained in both books I mentioned.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 09:39 AMCeltic schmeltic. What about the genocidal cull of Irish people in Ireland, better known as the famine? You’d think it was all a problem with the potato, when it was a problem with the english.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 09:40 AMIt was a problem with the potato. You’re the one with an English problem.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 01:04 PMThe one pertinent fact to me about the famine and English failings is that when there were crop failings prior to 1801 and the act of Union the Protestant Parliament in Dublin suspended all food exports. The Westminster parliament couldn’t be bothered doing this.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 06:58 PMWell said mani. There was a great hunger but no famine. An english cull.
Posted by on Apr 15, 2008 @ 08:28 PM
