Monday, September 24, 2007
Take it down from the mast?
Bit of a stink brewing in Wexford after local MEP, Avril Doyle, had a Papal flag and Irish tricolour removed from a local church prior to her daughter’s wedding last month. The Fine Gael politician has defended her decision to seek the removal of the flags, saying, “It was my personal call as I believe there is no place in church for flags of any kind.” The Catholic Church in Ireland, unlike other Christian Churches, does not have a tradition of flying flags in churches. In this case, however, the flags had been in place since local celebrations in 2003 to commemorate the bicentenary of a priest’s (Fr James Dixon) first Mass in Australia.
Chris Donnelly @ 09:05 PM
First step in the proposed FG/Alliance merger?? Cute hoors!!
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 09:26 PMAh, good, a thread about flags.
I’ll put the kettle on.
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 09:32 PMAvril,should have had her daughter married elsewhere. Non catholics attending the wedding can hardly complain about a papal flag being flown from a Catholic Church. As for national flags - I agree national flags should not be flown from churches. Avril is right though it was her personal choice - respect it for that and dont try to draw a political point from it.
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 09:34 PMChris,
“The Catholic Church in Ireland, unlike other Christian Churches, does not have a tradition of flying flags in churches.”
They gave it up long ago. They found the only way to do it was to open all the church doors on an unusually windy day.
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 09:43 PMvery good Dawkins.
Tom K
Seems to be causing enough of a stir to be discussed, don’t ya think?Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 09:45 PMA brave woman not afraid to speak her mind.
The flying of flags is thankfully not a problem throughout the country.Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 09:45 PMYou’d swear it was Avril who was getting married with all the decisions she seems to have made about the day.
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 09:48 PMDidn’t actually notice the Papal flag bit. That’s a joke. Why bother get married in a Catholic church (nobody forced her) if you have a problem with a Papal flag. Anyway hope she wasn’t doing the driving home after the reception!
http://www.octane.ie/forum/archive/index.php?t-37.html
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 09:49 PMI hate flags in or around church. Good on ye Avril!
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 10:11 PMhttp://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/07/31/ireland-wealth-housing-markets-equity-cx_po_0731markets09.html . Read it and fly the Holy Fathers flag with pride.
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 10:20 PMIsn’t it amazing the number of people who still fondly believe that there is an ‘Irish Church’? It was swamped by the Brits and the Roman Church back in 1200.A Celtic Church may have been bearable (or tholeable, as we Ulster Scots say).
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 10:23 PMDon’t care for Avril and I’m an Irish Republican but Irish flags in churches I don’t agree with. Can’t see why she has a problem with Papal flag in an RC Church.
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 10:24 PMWhen I went to a wedding in Clare a few years back the road from the house to the church (200 yards or so) was festooned with tricolours alternated with Munster flags and the little car park in front of the church had the yellow and white flying too. I think the father of the bride paid for them but I dont recall any objections.In fact it was rather beautiful.
Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 11:14 PMDon’t see the point of flying a tricolour in a church myself, although the Papal flag does have some relevance. Incidentally, it’s a lovely church. I got married there in 1994 for all the good it did me. I rememebr the parish priest of the time looked alarmingly like Christopher Plummer and when we asked about using our own music he replied “Is it sacred or profane?”
I said “It’s traditional.”
“Ah, lovely,” he replied. “‘Tis both.”Posted by on Sep 24, 2007 @ 11:55 PMThe Fine Gael politician has defended her decision to seek the removal of the flags, saying, “It was my personal call as I believe there is no place in church for flags of any kind.
most catholic churches in the united states fly an american flag! whats the difference? while it is a divisive issue in Norn it should only be an issue for west brits in ireland.
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 02:29 AMAs I said I just don’t see any point in it. Any communicants in Crossabeg - whether they be of the daily or occasional species - will know fine well what country they’re in. Although it must be said that it’s not without precedent in Wexford. There was always a rather spendid tricolour, fringed with gold threads in St Aidan’s cathedral in Enniscorthy for some unknown reason. It hung in front of a list of dead Bishops of Ferns. So maybe it’s a Wexford thing, although the Shannon Chapel just across the bridge form the cathedral never saw the need for one.
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 02:36 AMYou’d swear it was Avril who was getting married with all the decisions she seems to have made about the day.
Posted by George on Sep 24, 2007 @ 10:48 PM
yeah sure Georgie the mother of the Bride is nobody, oh wait. Do you really think that Avril was making any unilateral decision her daughter disagreed with? Heaven forbid that anyone else would make a personal choice that you found disagreeable.
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 08:16 AMJust by the way, my favourite flag flying controversy comes from the sleepy English village of Thaxted where in the 1920s Conrad Noel, High Anglican priest and Christian Socialist hung the Irish Tricolour in the Church alongside the Red Flag and the Cross of Saint George.
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 08:23 AMI’ve only once seen the Papal flag in a Catholic church in GB. The Church of England are allowed to fly St George’s cross with a badge - if they have permission of the Earl Marshal - a Roman Catholic! The only time I’ve seen any national flag in a Catholic Church is when it’s graped on the coffin of a deceased vetran - mainly the Union Flag and once the Polish flag
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 08:55 AMre the flying of the papal flag - apparently the pope is a catholic.
I remember seeing the American flag flying in catholic churches when i was over in the states and I always felt slightly uncomfortable about national flags in a church. It seemed to me to identify the church too much with nationalism. I was at Shaw’s Saint Joan last night (fantastic play btw, really superb) and one of the priest characters said something along the lines of the church recognising no kingdom but God’s kingdom.
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 09:25 AMmost catholic churches in the united states fly an american flag! whats the difference? while it is a divisive issue in Norn it should only be an issue for west brits in ireland.
So, because the Americans buy into a form of particularly stupid ultra-nationalism, we should to? Irish people should (and usually do) have more sense.
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 09:27 AMIf the parish priest had any enterprising spirit at all, he’d cut the papal flag up into little pieces and offer them on eBay :0)
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 09:46 AMLook the simple reason she did this and obviously won’t admit to is because she is a west brit. end of…
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 09:52 AMPounder,
the secret to a peaceful and pleasant wedding day in my view is where the couple, and the couple alone, make the decisions about the big day.I find it odd that mother of the bride said she decided how the layout of the Church would be. No mention of the daughter or the son-in-law from Avril.
Personally I think it was simply a case of lovely white orchids and fancy limos for a snazzy society wedding not fitting in with couple of grubby four-year-old flags at the altar so good old Avril decided they must be gone and found a pretty little principle to justify it.
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 10:12 AMI understand her decision to remove the flag - it is a political interruption of a spiritual event. If spirituality is about the Brotherhood of Man then why have political symbols placed within it? Pure spirituality would be more pleasing and appropriate at that moment.
Posted by on Sep 25, 2007 @ 11:06 AM
