Tuesday, December 04, 2007
“strong on aspiration, but low on detail.”
The Sinn Féin Education spokesman, Barry McElduff, praises it as “visionary” - although the chairman of the Assembly’s Education Committee, Sammy Wilson, was quoted on Talkback as calling it a “plateful of platitudes with a spoonful of substance”. The Northern Ireland Education Minister, Sinn Féin’s Caitríona Ruane, has made a statement in the Assembly - available for now at the SF website - outlining the future for post-primary education - “Next year will be the last year of the 11-plus. There will be no 11-plus in 2009.” - BBC report here Adds The Executive website catches up. And Mark Devenport notes some of the reaction in the Assembly. Update Additional BBC report
From the ministerial statement
“In my vision, young people will enjoy equal access to their post-14 educational pathway in a number of ways - as determined by the planning of education in their local areas. The options include:
Access within an 11-19 schoolTransfer to an alternative 11-19 school
Access through an 11-19 school or a post 14 school which offers the Entitlement Framework in collaboration with other schools or in a learning community.
A local area may offer general provision in 11-14 schools, followed by specialism and diversity in 14 plus provision.
“An academic pathway will remain, accessed by intelligent, well-informed and mature election and available through modern organisational flexibility.”
And
“Following a period of consultation, I intend to bring forward regulations governing the operation of post-primary transfer for 2010, and for the subsequent interim period before the implementation of a 14+ system of election.
“There will be no 11+ Transfer Test in the 2009/10 school year.
“Pupils transferring to post-primary school in September 2010 will do so overwhelmingly on the basis of their preferences for schools - in much the same way that they choose their primary schools and pre-schools now. From 2010 the criteria will include:
Community, Geographical and Family criteria“Many grammar schools have been admitting a wide ability range for some years now and will receive all their pupils in September 2010 without regard to academic assessment.
“Some grammar schools may need some time and assistance to adjust to the new system outlined today. In my forthcoming discussions with them I hope to be able to reach an agreed way forward to facilitate the transition.
“I would hope that all grammar schools would see a positive future for academic education in my vision for education. If any school, however, chooses to operate independent admissions arrangements that lie outside the new system of transfer, I want to make it clear that there is no obligation on my department to assist with funding.”
Update The Education minister has apparently clarified that the reference to “no obligation on my department to assist with funding” relates to the funding of any alternative selection procedure - such as the alternative proposed here.
More From the additional BBC report
Ms Ruane declined to give a straight answer when asked whether the new system would be subject to such a cross-community vote.
Some Ulster Unionists have expressed concern that by using “regulations” rather than a new law, the minister might avoid a cross-community vote.
But, DUP sources have told the BBC that because passing new regulations will require what is known as a “negative resolution” of the assembly, the plan can still be forced to a vote.
Sinn Fein sources acknowledge this, but counter that the 11-plus is gone and will not be coming back.
If the DUP tries to reintroduce academic selection to any new transfer criteria, Sinn Fein said nationalists would be able to use cross-community voting to stop such a move in its tracks.
Pete Baker @ 01:36 PM
What could CaitrÃona possibly know about education? This is like putting a Farmer in charge of Culture. Can they not match people up with subjects they might likely have some knowledge of? A few of the MLAs do have good University degrees whereby she doesnt appear to have any qualifications.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:04 PMWhere are all those supporters who told those of us who were pro-academic selection that pupil-profiling was the answer and we wouldn’t end up with selection by postcode?
I know the pressure parents can put teachers under. My mum was a teacher for 30 years.
Well done lads, the educationalists at DENI have sold us a pup.
Notice i didn’t say ‘teachers’? the last time most of the ‘experts’ at rathgael house saw a classroom they were behind the desks doing their Friday spelling tests.Why do you think New Labour ministers were so intent on following through on Arty McGuinness’s grand plan?
Simple. Because they knew profiling was unworkable and it would collapse, leaving us with the same system they have, local comprehensive who’s ultimate criteria will be geography.
This means they never have to revisit the difficult option of parents in their own constituencies wanting to bring back grammar schools now that the only example of where it works properly in the UK is abolished.
I passed my 11+. My 4 cousins didn’t.
They all took up trades, Joiner, Plumber, Welder, Electrican and all of them wouldn’t get out of bed for what i earn (and have told me so!).
Granted they are grafters and good luck to them. Would it have been suitable for them to be in my class when i wanted to learn about Julius Caeser or Atomic theory? No!
Anyone who lives near a school that has no sink estates near-by just put atleast £75,000 in the bank with this decision.
I accept that NI has skewed its values due to the system, people value university degrees far too much. We need our doctors, lawyers and accountants, but we also need our plumbers, joiners and care-assistants.
Its horses for courses people.
The fact no nationalist politicans had the balls to say this at the time sickens me.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:09 PMYes Congal, I was referring to you. I just happen to think it’s disrespectful. Cut and paste works for me. And don’t worry about the fadas. You can, if you want, do them though by holding down the Right hand side Alt button while typing the vowel.
Cheers.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:12 PMAnd yes, Congal, I think it is childish for S.F. members to refuse to say N.I. “Here” and “There” is such a joke.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:14 PMsammy:The pro-comprehensive lobby cite out of date facts (like the one about us having more pupils leaving schools without qualifications than GB), ignore inconvenient facts (like we have by far the highest proportion of young people from poor backgrounds going to university in the British Isles)<<
Feel free to produce your up to date facts.
Are you attributing the fact that we have more poor people going to university to the existance of the 11+ exam or because we have a controlled school sector or because we’ve had 30 years of troubles or because ....
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:30 PMTuning into Good Morning Ulster this morning and hearing them discuss the new proposal I was just shocked that any minister would take any firm position on anything, especially on such a contentious issue as Academic Selection and the eleven plus. Bravo, Mme Ruaine, i knew I always liked her.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 07:38 PMSitting beside Ruaine did anyone else think G Adams looked so tired and old.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 08:58 PMWhy shouldn’t he look so tired and old. He is.
Time for pasture I should think. His work is done, for good or bad.I await the rants from all 3 sides. (SF Republicans, Unionists, and disillusioned former SF Republicans).
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 09:38 PMThis represents a missed opportunity for Education Minister. The question remains… What then?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 10:06 PMjoe,
I am very aware of the man not ball rule here. However, I agree he does look aged before his time. I wonder if the very grey beard is part of the problem.Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 11:19 PMInteresting point, Turgon. I am usually bearded (grey too alas but I’m basically lazy in the mornings since I retired) but I shave it off every couple of months and people usually tell me how well I look.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 12:22 AMRe the last few comments -
I had thought that myself when watching the news at six.
To make matters worse I happened to see “folks on the hill” later on, with its “sketch” on a forlorn and forgotten Gerry. Whilst amusing I found it slightly sad. In any other situation the best remedy would be to head of to the politicians rest home, with a seat in the House of Lords.Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 10:55 AM“Community, Geographical and Family criteria”
Excuse my ignorance, but when the criteria are outlined as above what exactly does “community” mean as opposed to “geographical”.
Does it mean that schools will be able to select on the basis of which community you belong to?
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 11:05 AM“Community, Geographical and Family criteria”
“Sectarian, Geographical and Family criteria”?
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 12:06 PMOne point the minister made was that we have 50,000 spare desks and that this presents an opportunity for restructuring.
Does this capacity have much to do with the fact that we have at least the following varieties of school;
Girls Catholic High
Boys Catholic High
Co-ed Catholic High
Girls Catholic Grammar
Boys Catholic Grammar
Co-ed Catholic Grammar
Girls Prod High
Boys Prod High
Co-ed Prod High
Girls Prod Grammar
Boys Prod Grammar
Co-ed Prod GrammarWe could keep all these or we could just have lots of Lagan Colleges, each with general education to 14 and a Grammar and a Technical stream thereafter, with alternative campuses / blocks if needed.
Anyway, the important distiction is in the curriculum. Provided the technical types study vocational diplomas and the academics something more like the international Bac (or for that matter, the international Bac) there shouldn’t be any problem with accusations of “one size fits all” education. The problem with traditional comprehensive education is trying to use the same curriculum for everyone.
Is it a sign of Sinn Fein’s lack of committment to integration that “community” remains a criteria avaliable to the school? Surely if “prods” (or those assigned to the prod “community” fancy a traditional catholic or irish medium education schools shouldn’t be sending them away (and visa versa if “catholics” want a more secular education).
Practical example. Suppose I live in the bourgeois and cheerfully mixed district of west Bangor and my nearest primary is St Comgall’s. Do I stand in line behind all the Catholics, respecting the entitlement of people to give their kids a sense of historical and community continuity through a church education or do I say sod that, my kids play with your kids and demand priority based on geography?
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 01:52 PMAre there any comments on here from teachers? What percentage of children are we cheating? My experience is that those higher performing children are evident several years prior to “2 one hour exams.” The percentage of children who do not achieve their full potential is negligible. Likewise those children who “surprise” with an unexpected higher grade than anticipated is even more negligible. Realistically, whether 11 or 14, what difference does those 3 years make. This new admissions process is to tackle a problem that does not exist. At least the current selection process does not further complicate the dilemma by adding socio-economic and post code criteria. The end result will be the more emotional prospect from a pupils point of view in that they may now have to move school twice post-primary leaving friends behind. Do we go down the route of pupil profiles leaving pupils fate in the hands of potentially biased teaching staff (negligible) The reality remains that education should have a meritocracy. Those deserving pupils have a right to an education that will stretch and cahllenge. Will they receive this in a junior high school? Doubtful
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 02:28 PMmickeyb,
Makes you wonder how countries like Canada with no selection manage to thrive in today’s world, producing professionals, artists and business people etc.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 03:39 PMI passed my 11+.
At 10 my parents were told I had a 13 year old’s reading age. God knows what that means. An premature interest in porn perhaps. On account of this I was denied access to anything hands on or mechanical and sent to a school which had no computer studies, no business studies and no cooking.
My professional and private life makes more use of these than the Latin and rote learnt organic Chemistry my head was stuffed with instead.
The fact that the 11+ successfully separates children who can pass the 11+ from children who cannot pass the 11+ does not make it a relevant or useful signpost for the rest of life’s choices.
It may have suited a 1947 post-war Labour 5 year planner but it doesn’t suit a modern liberal economy trying to develop a sense of exploration and innovation in all trades and professions.
We need people to have to confidence to wander into one profession, out again and into another. We need accountants who used to be soldiers and joiners who become facilities managers, and cooks who take up marketing. We need people to understand that starting out on a vocational route does not preclude a later “academic” career. We’re failing kids by telling them it does, by pointing them in two different directions at 11.
Northern Ireland should take a look at more successful and innovative economies before congratualting itself on one measure of success (working class university access) that it may or may not have a relative lead in, and which may or may not be due to the 11+.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 03:52 PMIn my part of Canada we have something similar to 11+ but its taken at 14. But even this very comprehensive series of tests does not force you into a purely academic or vocational stream. regardless of the results it is up to the student and the parents what areas they choose to study. And as it is based on accumulation of course credits to graduate you can switch streams as you desire and frankly it seems a very successful formula. And it allows for students to come out with a much more rounded education.
I cant say as I understand the grammar school system in the north but seperating people based on what their educational prospects are seems very classest to me and not really beneficial to either group to seperate them
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:32 PM“I cant say as I understand the grammar school system in the north but seperating people based on what their educational prospects are seems very classest to me and not really beneficial to either group to seperate them”
That’s the point. We’re obsessed by difference and separating goats from sheep. It’s an unholy marriage of catholic exceptionalism / church control freakery and chippy prod calvinism.
Note that the Shinner minister has attacked the prods’ sheep and goats mentality but has not the bottle to address the Catholic Church’s monopoly on the education of “their” community.
A prod minister trying to deal with excess capacity might have called for merging of church and state schools (into the state schools of course) but would have maintained the separation of wheat from the chaff.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 05:03 PMShawn
I cant say as I understand the grammar school system in the north but seperating [sic] people based on what their educational prospects are seems very classest [sic] to me and not really beneficial to either group to seperate [sic] them
What do you think about separating people based on their religion?
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 05:17 PMSee!
Thanks Willowfield
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 05:37 PMWillowfield
religious education is almost unknown in western CanadaIn my City of 45,000 there is one small catholic school p1 to p8 of about 100 students and 1 non-denominational of about the same size and years after p8 there are so few pupils for either school that they merge into a single school.
So While I think the whole religion thing you have going on over there is silly, I have no real expierience at it so am unable to comment. In Canada the only people whjo ask you or care about your religion are the ones who are trying to convert you over to theirs and we generally politely but firmly close our doors in their faces.The other thing is there is no way to determine what religion somebody is by where they live or by what their last name is becaus they are as likely be a Harrasamchuck as a Boyd or an O’casey
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 05:57 PMErr i should have said the of the schools are state run and completely non-religious
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 05:59 PM
