Tuesday, December 04, 2007
“strong on aspiration, but low on detail.”
The Sinn Féin Education spokesman, Barry McElduff, praises it as “visionary” - although the chairman of the Assembly’s Education Committee, Sammy Wilson, was quoted on Talkback as calling it a “plateful of platitudes with a spoonful of substance”. The Northern Ireland Education Minister, Sinn Féin’s Caitríona Ruane, has made a statement in the Assembly - available for now at the SF website - outlining the future for post-primary education - “Next year will be the last year of the 11-plus. There will be no 11-plus in 2009.” - BBC report here Adds The Executive website catches up. And Mark Devenport notes some of the reaction in the Assembly. Update Additional BBC report
From the ministerial statement
“In my vision, young people will enjoy equal access to their post-14 educational pathway in a number of ways - as determined by the planning of education in their local areas. The options include:
Access within an 11-19 schoolTransfer to an alternative 11-19 school
Access through an 11-19 school or a post 14 school which offers the Entitlement Framework in collaboration with other schools or in a learning community.
A local area may offer general provision in 11-14 schools, followed by specialism and diversity in 14 plus provision.
“An academic pathway will remain, accessed by intelligent, well-informed and mature election and available through modern organisational flexibility.”
And
“Following a period of consultation, I intend to bring forward regulations governing the operation of post-primary transfer for 2010, and for the subsequent interim period before the implementation of a 14+ system of election.
“There will be no 11+ Transfer Test in the 2009/10 school year.
“Pupils transferring to post-primary school in September 2010 will do so overwhelmingly on the basis of their preferences for schools - in much the same way that they choose their primary schools and pre-schools now. From 2010 the criteria will include:
Community, Geographical and Family criteria“Many grammar schools have been admitting a wide ability range for some years now and will receive all their pupils in September 2010 without regard to academic assessment.
“Some grammar schools may need some time and assistance to adjust to the new system outlined today. In my forthcoming discussions with them I hope to be able to reach an agreed way forward to facilitate the transition.
“I would hope that all grammar schools would see a positive future for academic education in my vision for education. If any school, however, chooses to operate independent admissions arrangements that lie outside the new system of transfer, I want to make it clear that there is no obligation on my department to assist with funding.”
Update The Education minister has apparently clarified that the reference to “no obligation on my department to assist with funding” relates to the funding of any alternative selection procedure - such as the alternative proposed here.
More From the additional BBC report
Ms Ruane declined to give a straight answer when asked whether the new system would be subject to such a cross-community vote.
Some Ulster Unionists have expressed concern that by using “regulations” rather than a new law, the minister might avoid a cross-community vote.
But, DUP sources have told the BBC that because passing new regulations will require what is known as a “negative resolution” of the assembly, the plan can still be forced to a vote.
Sinn Fein sources acknowledge this, but counter that the 11-plus is gone and will not be coming back.
If the DUP tries to reintroduce academic selection to any new transfer criteria, Sinn Fein said nationalists would be able to use cross-community voting to stop such a move in its tracks.
Pete Baker @ 01:36 PM
Also of note is only a few Grammar Schools actually take pupils solely with good passes at 11+, most are facing under-subscription take those who have passes then top up with those who fail. It isn’t even really proper academic selection.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:51 PMintersting to read in it that if a school is over subscribed that it will be a postcode lottery is you get in or not, i.e the closer to the school you live the better the chance and also if you have brothers or sisters at it you also stand a better chance!
No one could possibly say that this is anyway fairer than asking prospective pupils to sit an entrance exam in the case of too many applications.
11 might be considered young but at least if you have been at a school for 3 years before starting on studies for GCSEs, which are probably one of the most important set of exams in life, you will be well settled and know your surroundings and so can just get on with the job in hand instead of wasting the first few vital months aclimatising to your new surroundings.
The case for the retention of academic selection is just overwhelming. Once again we see someone who possibly has a personal grieveance with the system doing what pleases them and not what the public want.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:56 PMPostcode lottery is a red herring it’s been happening at pre and primary level all along.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:59 PMRuane herself today admitted that she hadn’t consulted with her Executive colleagues in advance of this statement - what she did was to drop them a letter 45 minutes before the announcement was made.
However, she did admit that she would have to take the proposals to the Executive - at that point they can be tabled for a cross-community vote which won’t be forthcoming.
Surely its practically negligent to bring forward proposals which have absolutely no hope of success - particularly on an issue like this. For all her platitudes she’s failed and doesn’t have a snowballs chance of getting the plassed.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:59 PMI agree with Jaffa completely, academic success has more to do with effort than ability. So find out where the childs interests and therefor its efforts are likely to be channeled.
If its vocational regardless of IQ then they should be allowed to pursue a vocational career
and to make this decision you need to be more mature than 11, based on my personal expieriences I would say 14 is as close a uniform number as you can get. Any earlier and there is a great deal of immaturity any later and there is the danger of starting too late. No number will ever be universal but 14 seems to me to be a good starting point.
Its too bad the academics attempt to run the education system and funnel everybody into the university stream. And have effectively denuded the skilled rades of their traditional respect
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:03 PMWILLOFIELD
“I second your call for the DUP to explain how the St Andrews Agreement will enable them to stop Ruane abolishing the 11+.”
AFAICR, the DUP claimed to have secured academic selection, not the 11+ examination.
I’ll add another recommendation for the Dickson Plan.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:12 PMMy reading of the legislation, corrections appreciated.
A 7 day clock for a response to Ruane’s decision started today. The only action that can be taken is 30 members stating they want the Ministerial decision reviewed by the Executive Committee as it is a matter of public importance. If the Presiding Officer agrees the matter gets referred to the Executive Committee where there is no legislation on sanctions but a 7 day deadline for an outcome.
There’d be no agreement in the Executive, the decision would proceed and a judicial review would find their is nothing in the law that allows the Executive to do anything beyond discussing a Ministerial decision.
Robbo screwed up at St Andrews.
And SF hit the back of the net for the first time in months. Well done Ruane.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:14 PMPorteydown
Academic Selection doesn’t equal 11+ - there are many different forms.Just because Ruane stands up and says this is what she will bring forward doesn’t mean she can actually do it. She still has the thorny issue of cross-community consent (secured by the DUP) to get around.
Had academic selection not been returned to the statute book (by the DUP) then she wouldn’t have needed that consent but actually unionists would have required SF’s consent to have it returned.
The Dickson plan might actually be one possibility given that it does use selection within it. Its a shame Ruane didn’t actually come forward with it as a model - she might have had some chance of succeeding then.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:19 PMWHOOPS
“Academic Selection doesn’t equal 11+ - there are many different forms.”
Yes, that’s the point I was making - if the 11+ examination is gone, dead, kaput there won’t be many tears but I undertand that the DUP has a blocker ro prevent seletion being thrown-out in whatever form that takes.
I agree with your comment about what the reaction had been if she had endorsed the Dickson plan but it appears to my innocnet reading that she is giving these “local areas” the opportunity to run with that model if they wish, allbeit with a question mark over the method of selection at 14.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:25 PMLooks like the DUPer hacks have been fed their brief for the day. Go get’em lads…
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:26 PMTo be fair, I don’t mind the Paisleyites being fed a line, still less them pushing it here - I’m just interested in hearing what the line is. So far it’s boiling down to a half way house between, she can’t do what she’s done, and, the small print allows every grammar school that wants to opt out of her proposed changes. It’s not much of a line, but then again, being opaque gibber, Ruane’s wasn’t much of a statement.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:38 PM”The Protestant ethos is already well represented in state schools via the almost unknown Transferors Representatives Council which is guaranteed Board of Governors places and membership on the ELBs. Separation of church and state in schooling is a cleverly constructed myth. Many state schools were transfered to the Dept of Education from Protestant church control 50/60/70s and the churches were then guaranteed permanent influence within those schools. ”
Well, in my time at grammar school I think I seen a Protestant minister once and I believe it was due to a request by a pupil. My Chinese friends were under no obligation to practice the Protestant religion at school, they practiced their religion at home, like all other pupils at our State school. So you’re misleading the readers on this forum Frank Sinistra, by suggesting that ‘Separation of church and state in schooling is a cleverly constructed myth’
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:40 PMI’m misleading no-one, you have been presented wit hthe facts and choose to deny them and then make unfounded accusations agsinst me.
The Board of Governors controls the school ethos. Protestant churches are guaranteed Board of Governors places in many state schools in additional to places on the Education and Library Boards. Catholic clergy or no other religions have these positions in state schools.
Therefore the state system is under hidden influence by Protestant churches via the very shy Transferor Representatives Council.
All true.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:50 PMhahahohoho
“Looks like the DUPer hacks have been fed their brief for the day. Go get’em lads… “
Not sure if that was aimed at me but if it was, you’re well wide of the mark. I can assure you that I’m nobody’s hack.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:54 PMUMH,
Here’s a wee bit on how separate church and controlled schools are:
http://www.iol.ie/~coieduc/schools.htm
Not separate at all in many cases.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:58 PMWhen you said ‘The Protestant ethos is already well represented in state schools’ you make it sound as if all students are required to embrace the Protestant religion, that was my concern with your post.
“The Board of Governors controls the school ethos. Protestant churches are guaranteed Board of Governors places in many state schools in additional to places on the Education and Library Boards. Catholic clergy or no other religions have these positions in state schools.”
Regarding the Board of Governors, is there a clause stating that Protestant ministers are to be the only religion represented?
As for the faith of state schools, it’s totally free. A Pupil isn’t required to practice the Protestant religion if that said pupil is of a different religion.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:05 PMWell, in my time at grammar school I think I seen a Protestant minister once
Thank you for making my day. LOL!
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:10 PM‘And SF hit the back of the net for the first time in months. Well done Ruane’
Or set themselves up for an almighty fall.Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:10 PMHere’s a wee bit on how separate church and controlled schools are:
http://www.iol.ie/~coieduc/schools.htm
Not separate at all in many cases.
Frank Sinistra, that link only states the role the church of Ireland plays. I haven’t seen anything yet which states that only Protestant denominations are allowed to be represented in the board of Governors for state schools. Surely that’s what you should be looking for?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:12 PMWhat? They admit the larger Protestant churches are guaranteed at least four from nine positions on the Board of Governors. There are no a similar guarantees for any other religions in the controlled sector.
Simple. That isn’t separation of church and state that’s state recognition of Protestant influence in the controlled sector.
And a myth well and truly busted.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:27 PMHi All,
Wouldn’t it be wild to Find out that Katrina has applied for her own kid to attend a Grammar school in Newry?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:35 PMThe problem with this debate is that everyone cites the facts that support them and ignores the ones they don’t.
The pro-comprehensive lobby cite out of date facts (like the one about us having more pupils leaving schools without qualifications than GB), ignore inconvenient facts (like we have by far the highest proportion of young people from poor backgrounds going to university in the British Isles), and talk shite about the stress of the 11+ (while ignoring the sheer hell of bullying that many academically minded kids go through in sink primary schools here and comps across the water). They also want to avoid the question that some schools will always be oversubscribed and that some system of selection will always be needed, even if it is lottery. In fact the sheer Whitney Houston-esque drivel of Frank Bunting and your woman on Nolan this morning, the delusion that just go comprehensive and everything will be great in the blink of an eye, would make me take my children out of their classes.
On the other hand, the pro-grammar school lobby don’t want to deal with the reality of a collapsing school-age population which means that grammar schools, far from being some form of academic hothouse, actually take in a majority of Primary School leavers in some areas (e.g. Coleraine), deny that social inequities are an issue, in most cases maintain capitation fees and overpriced uniforms that are a barrier to children from poor homes, and have a complete dearth of ideas about how to provide a decent education for children who aren’t academically inclined.
For all that I have slagged Catriona off in the past, the Dickson Plan seems to work well in Craigavon and it is a reasonable and realistic political compromise. I just have no confidence that Catriona will have any capacity to deliver this change without chaos. This must be her primary objective now.
But everyone is different. I was amused at the comments that effort beats ability in the end. Not in my case; I hardly did homework, even at A-Level, and saw plenty of people working much harder for less reward. That isn’t where the problem is; the problem is that no system on offer is actually offering equal value to those whose talents lie in fields other than academic work, and I don’t actually see the pro-comprehensive lobby changing that; rather than equal esteem, they seem to want to make mini-Methodies for everyone.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:35 PMI said above that I had no particular knowledge of education. One of the problems we all have in debates on teaching is that we have all been to school. Hence, there is a tendancy for people to think they know a fair bit about it. I went to three schools (two primary, one grammar); with hindsight they were fairly good, but not very good schools (especially the grammar though it had, and still holds, delusions of grandeur). I am not qualified to comment of what is best in educational terms.
There does seem to be a problem that Northern Ireland seems to simultaneously turn out amongst the best A level results in the UK and also amongst the worst rates of no qualifications.
Is one possible solution that with the falling birth rates and the fact that the grammar schools are now taking a bigger proportion of children that they (the grammars) could gobble up the secondaries and we could have a form of comprehensives by stealth. I in no way propose this as a solution merely pose a question as to whether or not this might happen by default.
On the politics of the issue. I am left wondering whether or not there is a mechanism being attempted by which the two positions of the DUP and SF can be reconciled without too much loosing of face on either side.
I have already noted that Ruane has not said she would definitely cut funding to grammars which declared UDI (I just think that is a really cool abbrevation from my childhood and no I am not a racist). Is it possible that the statement from Ruane is vague in order to allow for a comnpromise to be cobbled together?
Could there be an alternative compromise. The grammars effectively take over the secondaries; stream children when they arrive and send some to the other part of the grammar school down the road which was once known as the secondary.
This would allow Ruane to proclaim that selection had been abolished. The DUP could proclaim that academic sleection had been maintained.
After all in the current arrangements not damaging the “love in” seems to be the most important factor and manifesto committments seem to be extremely elastic.
Whether or not such a non decision is in the best interests of education or children is of course of no relevance. After all we have had multiple non decisions with little concern for any ill effects and of course it is not just the DUP and SF who get up to this, see McGimspey and health.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:37 PMWhat’s the problem with the, thankfully fairly few, posters here who have a problem with people’s given or chosen name, and feel the need to change them to an English equivalent?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:42 PMHi Joe,
I take it you’re referring to me? I have no Irish language skills. Therefore I reckon I’d mess up the spelling. I also don’t know how to do the key strokes to get the letters with the accents. When I talk about Germany I don’t use the German word for exactly the same reason. Why would Katrina be any different? I suppose there’s probably also some notion that Katrina never uses Northern Ireland, etc in there also. BTW, I know that’s an infantile excuse.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:58 PM
