Wednesday, February 20, 2008
Sport as part of normalisation policy?
The last time representatives of British Crown forces set foot in Croke Park 14 civilians were murdered, this Saturday a woman holding the titles:
* Colonel-in-Chief, The King’s Royal Hussars
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment (29/45 Foot)
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Corps of Signals
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Logistic Corps
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Army Veterinary Corps
* Commandant-in-Chief, The First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (Princess Royal’s Volunteer Corps)
* Colonel, The Blues and Royals
* Royal Colonel, The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland
* Royal Colonel, The 52nd Lowland Regiment, 6th Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland
* Rear Admiral and Chief Commandant for women, Royal Navy
* Honorary Air Commodore, RAF Lyneham
* Honorary Air Commodore, University of London Air Squadron
* Royal Honorary Colonel, University of London OTC
* Commodore-in-Chief, Portsmouth
UPDATED below
will be attending the Ireland Scotland rugby match there wearing her patron of Scottish rugby hat.
éirígí have altered plans for a pre-arranged protest at the British embassy in Dublin (part of a larger campaign) against a proposed visit to Ireland by the British Queen to object over the royal trip to Croke Park and have called for Republicans, Socialists and Democrats to support their stance.
Update: Details of the éirígí protest
Mark McGregor @ 07:48 PM
Willowfield
From my Emergency Law course at Queens at the time if I remember rightly much like a Carry On movie it depended on the size of your weapon (not even on what you had done with it!)
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 01:14 PMWell i’ll be passing the junction of Ballybough
Rd and Clonliffe Rd en route to the game and i must admit i’ll find it strangely reassuring that
political dinosaurs exist all over this wee island and not just up here.Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 01:22 PMSorry, I don’t understand what you mean.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 01:23 PMPeople have the right to protest if they want to.
Mark - just one pointer. I recall the last protest by RSF against foreign sports at Croke Park and one of the protesters was wearing a celtic top.
It sure made me laugh - enjoy your day out in the Capital.
p.s. can anyone explain the logic of rugby to me?
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 01:24 PMA unioist voice: And we shall keep our ties with the Lowland Scots because they are our ancestral brothers, but not the Highland Scots, because they are coniving like the native Irish that live amoungst us here. And we shall grovel at the feet of the english because we see them as superior to us, and we shall aspire to be everything that they are. And maybe even hope to die an englishman.
Slave minded serfs the lot of ye. Long may ye continue to be.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 01:27 PMVery amusing.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 01:46 PMWillowfield,
“That’s true, but didn’t they also refuse to extradite terrorists?”Didn’t the RUC also refuse to take up the option of having them be tried in the Republic for what I assume were political rather than policing grounds?
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 02:29 PMGeorge that option was only available from the late ‘80s when the new govt was so embarassed byy the actions of its predecessors and decisions of it courts it created that alternative - nice try but I’m afraid that I am only to glad to blow that smokescreen away.....
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 02:34 PMGeorge
Didn’t the RUC also refuse to take up the option of having them be tried in the Republic for what I assume were political rather than policing grounds?
No idea, but I see Peter Brown has answered.
Are you acknowledging, then, that the courts in the South refused to extradite terrorists to the UK?
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 02:40 PMNot to the UK, just the northeast of Ireland, because it was being ran by a bunch of incompetent sectarian bigots.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 02:54 PMSmell the Coffee
grow up.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 03:00 PMThe truth is a byatch, isn’t it.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 03:02 PM‘Nonsense the Irish Government and taxpayers paid millions over a period of more than 30 years to keep hundreds of extremists locked up in Portlaoise and other prisons ‘
Should have read hundreds of millions .
-’That’s true, but didn’t they also refuse to extradite terrorists? ‘
No .It’s the Courts not the Government that decide extradition cases . They make their judgements based on the written Constitution and laws of the Republic . I know that some applications for ‘extradition’ were turned down because the applicants either did not furnish enough evidence or paid little attention to the Courts procedures . Some applications I believe were so poorly prepared that any junior solicitor in the Republic could tear them apart . The history of British Courts as regards ‘trying’ Irish people re political and related offenses would of course not have made ‘extradition’ easy to implement . There’s no need to repeat the list but you could dig up a couple of hundred years of cases which would show without question that too often the crime was simply to be Irish and that was proof guilt enough .
On balance I believe the Irish Government did what it could do to ameliorate the violence in NI as regards implementing the powers it had during those times . Unlike say the powes of British Courts which when dealing with the Irish often cared not whether the man was guilty or not just that he be made an example of !
The ‘hanging ‘ of William Orr in 1798 being just one case in a centuries long list of of Irish victims of British injustice :(
The sentence was hardly passed on William Orr when regret was to seize on those who had aided in securing that verdict. The witness Wheatly, who subsequently went insane, is believed to have died by his own hand, made an affidavit before a magistrate admitting that he had sworn wrongly against Orr. [1] Two of the jury made depositions stating that they had been “induced to join in the verdict of guilty while under the influence of drink”; while two others swore that they had “been terrified into the same course by threats of violence.” [1] [3]
These particulars were placed before the Viceroy, but Lord Camden, the Lord Lieutenant, was “deaf to all appeals.” “Well might Orr exclaim within his dungeon” he said “that the Government had laid down a system having for its object murder and devastation.” [1]
Orr was hanged, in the town of Carrickfergus though his execution was postponed three times on the 14 October, 1797, surrounded by an extra strong military guard.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 03:11 PMNot to the UK, just the northeast of Ireland, because it was being ran by a bunch of incompetent sectarian bigots.
It was “being ran”, as you put it, by the same people running the rest of the UK, so the reasoning offered in your comment makes no sense, even if essentially it were true, which I do not believe it is.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 03:13 PMSmell the Coffee
I rather suspect you and the truth are involved in a very long distance relationship. Let me help you with some truths people have difficulty with
1) The UK includes four constituent parts: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Even the Provos understand that.
2) The UK will continue to contain four constituent parts unless NI produces a majority in a referendum which says otherwise. Even the DFM understands that’s an unlikely outcome.
3) The only state which shares a land border with the UK styles itself “Ireland”. Check how it defines iteself within the EU and UN. Accordingly the “the northeast of Ireland” is County Louth.
If I can help you with anything else just ask.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 03:14 PMNo .It’s the Courts not the Government that decide extradition cases .
Obviously, but the Government is responsible for the laws which the courts implement. The courts interpret those laws.
Think of abortion - the Government has changed the abortion law following court judgments.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 03:16 PMIreland is made up of the island of Ireland.
Within the island are two states :
1. The Republic of Ireland.
2. Northern ireland.Both make up the sum of Ireland.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 03:42 PMTherefore the northeast of the Republic of Ireland is Co.Louth, the northeast of Ireland is Co.Antrim. Suck it up brother.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 04:22 PMThink of abortion
‘the Government has changed the abortion law following court judgments.’
Not true . The Government proposed an amendment to the Constitutional law prohibiting abortion which was then put to the people in a referendum . Had the amendment not been accepted by referendum it would not have become law .
The Republic has a written Constitution which limits the ‘sovereignty ‘ of Parliament .
The UK is different . Technically the UK Government could pass a law mandating the sterilisation of all adult males over the age of 10 in Northern Ireland and if passed by Parliament that would be Her Majesty’s law ! We prefer our written Constitution .Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 04:47 PMWillow
“Obviously, but the Government is responsible for the laws which the courts implement. The courts interpret those laws.”
But extradition is still a legal matter that must be decided by the courts. So unless the government of the day had passed a law saying that all extradition requests from any country would be granted, regardless of circumstance, without legal recourse, then the government had no further say over the matter.
Of course so country could possibly have such a law, so Irish extradition law, like that in any other democracy, requires a certain burden of evidence and the guarantee of a fair trial, of any foreign government seeking to extradite people from the Republic.
Clearly in a number of cases Irish courts were not satisfied that UK courts could meet these requirements. But this was a legal judgement, and remember that in the Republic of Ireland, unlike the UK, the supreme power of the land is vested in the people and codified in a written constitution. There are no circumstances in which an Irish Minister for Justice has the power to override the courts, unlike a British Home Secretary. RoI has a separation of powers.
And of course there were people extradited from RoI to the UK during the Troubles. There just wasn’t extradition on demand, and in the cases where the British authorities didn’t do their homework, they were met with the judegment they deserved in the Irish courts.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 04:51 PMI have just seen our two water cannon on the road from Armagh to Portadown. A suspicious mind asks me are they on their way to Dublin. The PSNI would not help me in my enquiries; their press office lady told me to contact my local district policing partnership; they refused to put me through to the Chief Constable’s Office-poorly paid gate keepers using their brains is a recipee for disaster it alienates the PSNI’s friends and supporters.Or are British citizens now the enemy in the publicity and media attention seeking Chief Constable’s mind?. They used to hire Belgian water cannon to support the PSNI at Drumcree. I hope they know the current rental value and that they are indemnified against any damage should this hopefully unlikely situation arise. Just to think some anti social elements “will be in for’t early bath” with a bit of luck before Kick Off-slap it up ‘em.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 04:55 PMThank you Post 25 above for the excellent summary. Could’nt have done better myself :)
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 05:17 PMWhether people agree with the protest or not, it cannot be portrayed as being devoid of logic.
It appears quite straight forward to me. There are those in Dublin who would attempt to normalise relations with Britain in the fullest sense.
They are on record as saying that they are preparing the way for the visit of the British monarch.
Those in eirigi, indeed, more than their numbers alone, do not believe relations can be normalised whilst British rule exists within any part of Ireland.
In case it has been lost in todays world, Irish Republicanism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.
Further to this, socialism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.
Add the two together and it is not incredibly difficult to see how those from that school of thought have problems with British monarchs and their associates visiting Ireland as a matter of course.
It appears eirigi have taken a relatively restained position on this. They are not protesting against ‘foreign sports’ in Croke, they rightly state that that is an internal matter for the GAA. They are not protesting at the match, its participants, its fans, etc.
They are merely protesting at the proposed visit of the British monarch whilst matters are outstanding and against any foundations for such a visit being laid.
I wish them well.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 06:01 PMSurely though Redhaze from the point of view of éirígí this is not going to achieve its goal. If republicanism or socialism is to be relevant it needs to be seen to be responsive to the real needs of people on the ground as they live their lives under an unequal system. Frankly, a protest like this risks making them looks like cranks of the RSF variety. Might be good for the converted, but to make converts? Not sure it’s sensible.
And as for relations betwen Dublin and London, I think they’ve been well beyond normal for some time.
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 06:53 PM‘There are those in Dublin who would attempt to normalise relations with Britain in the fullest sense.’
Eh ? Relations between Dublin/ROI and Britain are normal and have been for a long time . Probably no two countries anywhere within the EU have a closer relationship right across the economic, political and social spectrum .
‘They are on record as saying that they are preparing the way for the visit of the British monarch.’
Actually we don’t much care one way or the other . If she comes she’ll get a welcome if she don’t she won’t .
‘Those in eirigi, indeed, more than their numbers alone, do not believe relations can be normalised whilst British rule exists within any part of Ireland.’
So are we to cut off all trade and diplomatic relations -send all our british immigrants back to blighty -stop buying english goods -stop looking at premier league soccer -stop drinking english ales ? WTF do you mean by ‘normalise’anyway . It’s 2008 not 1909 !
‘In case it has been lost in todays world, Irish Republicanism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.’
I would’nt doubt it . However there is the ‘republicanism’ of eirigi who get zero votes in democratic elections in Ireland as opposed to the Republicanism of the vast majority of the Irish people who vote for FF/PD/FG /Labour/Green Party etc .
‘Further to this, socialism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.’
Indeed it is but what has ‘socialism’ got to do with 80,000 people going to watch a rugby game and having some Saturday entertainment ? Eirigi’s form of socialism does not appeal to any but a tiny minority in either North or South in Ireland .
‘They are merely protesting at the proposed visit of the British monarch whilst matters are outstanding ‘
What matters are outstanding ? The vast majority of the people in both the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland voted to accept the Good Friday Agreement which whether you personnally like it or not stipulates that NI will remain a part of the political UK until such time as a majority within NI vote otherwise . Princess Anne had nothing to do with the GFA nor did she cast a vote in the referendum . I did’nt particularly favour the GFA but that’s what the people wanted and thats what the people got .
‘Add the two together and it is not incredibly difficult to see how those from that school of thought have problems’
You can say that again but I would’nt use ‘thought’ in that comment -it’s more of a problem of the absence of thought ! Surely there are better ways for Eirigi members to spend their Saturdays . Most I’m sure will want to skive off to watch the English Premier league anyway :)
Posted by on Feb 21, 2008 @ 06:58 PM
