Saturday, August 09, 2008
“Sinn Fein needs these powers to be devolved..”
Sinn Féin’s u-turn over their previously demanded “safeguards” in any devolved justice ministry, however Martin McGuinness cared to portray it, might have bought them the appearance of movement.. however briefly.. But Gerry Adams is still talking about failure of the “indigenous” deal threatening to take the ball away. And he’s still pointing, again, to ‘promises’ at St Andrews. Not that he can point directly at such a promise on policing and justice.. as the DUP’s Peter Robinson has re-stated. The problem for the Sinn Féin leadership is that those promises were made elsewhere by them, and to a particular audience - as Maurice Hayes identified in March.
Sinn Fein needs these powers to be devolved, not only because they represent the last piece of the Patten jigsaw, but because it was a main element in the bill of sale on which they persuaded republicans to buy into support for policing.
For Patten, it was a defining function of government, and a manifest of the commitment of parties to defend the institutions and the common good, that they should exercise these powers. For Sinn Fein and republicans, it is symbolically important that these powers should be exercised by local politicians responsible to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Without that, the Sinn Fein leadership would not have got agreement, and failure to deliver will seriously damage their credibility.
Pete Baker @ 05:36 PM
O% new content. It’s fucking, spam Pete.
And also: Political party wants to deliver key promise or else it loses credibility? This is a key fucking insight? Really?
In any case, there are reasons why it got to be a key demand in the first place, some of them ideological, some of them practical. SF do not want it devolved for the sake of it: they want it devolve because it is a key pillar of government, and important for a Republican perspective that the power is exercised in Irish hands. It also helps cement the settlement, important at a junction where fragmentation is occurring within Republicanism.
Adams is 100% right in threatening to take the ball away, and 100% should if necessary.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 06:48 PMThe natural instinct of any political party is to weaken its opposition.
The DUP don’t owe any favours to SF. As a matter of fact they should frustrate their demands for devolution as long as possible because they owe it to their supporters that these powers will only come to Stormont when the Unionist community have confidence they will be properly used.That confidence does not exist.
If this causes problems for Adams it is tough luck.The DUP can call his bluff because he has nowhere else to go.
Remember the mantra “ GFA is the only show in town"--- How he must regret saying this.
He can be pushed much further to give concessions such as ILA, Maze and restoration of academic selection if desired by parents.
Where does that leave us? Back to original Unionist demands.Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 06:50 PMThe DUP don’t owe any favours to SF. As a matter of fact they should frustrate their demands for devolution as long as possible because they owe it to their supporters that these powers will only come to Stormont when the Unionist community have confidence they will be properly used.That confidence does not exist.
Pure, steaming horseshit.
“Community confidence”? Has anyone ever set out an objective standard for this? Attempted to give any criteria? IRC, the last survey had over 50% of DUP supporters supporting the devolution of justice powers in May. I could add that there is a significant section of the Nationalist community that don’t have confidence unless the powers are devolved. No, there is no criteria other than what the DUP can get out of SF.
Which is fine, but it does mean that
1. The DUP are soft on crime. There is basically what amounts to an epidemic in West Belfast. Normally, public outcry would cause minsters to act a la knife crime in England but whoops, no, we have no minster to act. Every murder, every rape, every police fuck up, every miscarriage of justice—the DUP deserve a wee bit of the responsibility for them by blocking a change that means we might be able to make changes that changes those outcomes.
2. The DUP have zero interest in actually create a stable NI, but are rather only interested in pure sectional advantage. Having a rump of society completely divorced from its institutions is utterly bad from us all. Have we learned nothing.
No, the DUP owe SF squat. They owe their constituents better.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 07:05 PMkensai
I am a little confused. Since when did the GFA become a settlement? Sf describe it as part of a process leading to something else and when did fragmentation of support take place. Here again we are told the leadership enjoy the confidence of all.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 07:11 PMkensei, you’re drinking that strange SF koolaid which says that crime will mysteriously stop in West Belfast as soon as the new (non Sinn Fein) justice minister takes over. I’d be very careful about buying into that idea.
If Adams wants to take the ball away, then fine. All party talks again, and given that Sinn Fein have burned all their bridges with the SDLP, they’ll be isolated and out of government for a long time.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 07:26 PMCS
kensei, you’re drinking that strange SF koolaid which says that crime will mysteriously stop in West Belfast as soon as the new (non Sinn Fein) justice minister takes over. I’d be very careful about buying into that idea.
No, I’m not, and don’t put words in my mouth. I don’t have particular faith in our local politicians to do anything serious or inventive enough to really tackle crime.
But they will at least try something, and you can always be surprised. What is absolutely, 100% certain is they will not do anything while the powers are not in their hands. In the future the blame could be fairly leveled at the Justice Minster and the Executive in general. At the moment it’s entirely fair to leave at the door of the DUP for being soft on crime.
UF
I am a little confused. Since when did the GFA become a settlement? Sf describe it as part of a process leading to something else and when did fragmentation of support take place. Here again we are told the leadership enjoy the confidence of all.
It’s, shall we say, the current settlement. If the DUP are serious about it being a permanent settlement, then they need to draw outsiders in. Sectional advantage won’t cut it. It won’t cut it for SF either, if they want to move us elsewhere.
As for fragmentation, follow the news. SF do still enjoy a remarkable amount of support. But councilor here, adviser there, creeping dissident support. A lot of it with the breaking point being policing. The principle of P&J;has been conceded by everyone. It’s in everyone’s interest then to get it here and make it work. If it helps stem the drift to dissidents and has people more comfortable for policing structures, that’sa win for everyone, not just SF.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 07:36 PMAre Sinn Féin committed to powersharing?
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 07:41 PMAre Sinn Féin committed to powersharing?
I guess it depends. Are the DUP going to share power?
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 07:43 PMLooks like a stale mate.
Who is going to blink first?Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 07:53 PM“I guess it depends. Are the DUP going to share power?”
Sinn Féin has the same power as the DUP.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 07:56 PMslug
In theory SF have the same power but in reality DUP are in a more dominate position.
For example if SF want some significant changes they require approval from DUP and vice verse.
On the other hand DUP can keep the status quo without any support from SF.Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 08:07 PMIf Sinn Fein could walk on water rather than marvel at that the DUP, Peter and Iris Robinson, would ridicule them for not swimming.
The problem is the DUP continues to focus on personalities rather than a new middle-class electorate who voted for SF to ensure historic deals were finished off, IRA wound up, and policing backed and back in the hands of people, all people.
It is a mandatory coalition, parties must show leadership and innovate politically to deliver inside these constraints to grow wider NI confidence in devolution. Until there is credible belief at elector level that the Assembly will not bifurcate into its negative designation blocs to block rather than overcome contentious issues, then the public will see to it that mandatory coalition remains.
Ergo, no chance nor opportunity to renegotiate the shape and operation of NI assembly governance.
It’s time to inspire, grow support, change attitudes and lead people into acceptance of power sharing not banking up shares of power to the advantage of a particular ethnic group.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 08:42 PMTalking to me again then, ken?
You might want to check your percentages too.. since you don’t actually click on my links. And as long as Gerry continues to claim that promises existed, I’ll continue to point out the reality of the current situation.
But your argument/futuring is not un-reasonable as far as it goes.
Not withstanding Comrade Stalin’s reasonable caveat and your own admission that you “don’t have particular faith in our local politicians to do anything serious or inventive enough to really tackle crime.”
But if they do have any ideas they can still lobby the current minister in charge of criminal justice matters - who happens to be introducing new measures as we speak.
Now that Restorative Justice, SF’s big idea, hasn’t worked.
As for
As for fragmentation, follow the news. SF do still enjoy a remarkable amount of support. But councilor here, adviser there, creeping dissident support. A lot of it with the breaking point being policing.
Policing, eh? And not the repeated claims to promises that never existed.
That’s where the credibility gap exists.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 08:42 PMPete in this case your micromanagement is tantamount to bad political mismanagement!
There’s no IRA now, no London face to save nor any British prestige either. Either local politicians build up confidence in Northern Ireland in terms of operability and stability; or, the British exchequer runs it down, and more back deal talks with SF et al.
News management will see to it that consensus over the next decade or two delivers in the right direction. Unionist are fecking idiots.
At a time when local councils are working together delivering strategies to work up on local image and branding through amplifying a common direction together; unionists fail to see the same need to get over a retarded past and work on building up regional image themselves.
It’s a nonsense. The proof of this is the fact that roughly speaking the DUP cant bear to see a SF minister over policing with a DUP one, so instead they are happy with a ministry to go to someone else inside a devolutionary system. It is personnel and not politics at stake here and that sums up the DUP. Person before politics, which roughly speaking is an illness throughout much of NI politics. People well into themselves rather than the people who put them there to lead up change and to get the best deal on their behalf.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 08:58 PMDC
“It’s time to inspire, grow support, change attitudes and lead people into acceptance of power sharing not banking up shares of power to the advantage of a particular ethnic group.”
As a start, how about certain party’s stop being economical with the acualité?
To their own supporters.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 09:00 PMPete - when SF were conducting all those town hall meetings re policing quoting the May 08 deadline do you think that:
a) They were making it up or:
b) They believed that the DUP were committed to the timetable.Personally I suspect b)
To be honest I reckon that SF would have been happy with a later deadline - as lond as the path was clear.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 09:02 PM“Personally I suspect b)”
Dewi
That would require you to ignore everything that both the DUP actually said and the UK government eventually confirmed.
But you believe Gerry et al if you want to..
After all, despite everything that’s happened, Gerry’s sticking to his guns on this one [pun intended].
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 09:08 PMPete,
thanks for that reminder to everyone about the importance of the transfer of Police and Justice to the PEACE PROCESS. We have The Irish Government, The British Government, The US administration, SF, SDLP in favour of the transfer and the DUP against.
If Grizzly has to collapse the assembly because on non-movement by the fundamentalist-anti-gay-anti-evolution party then I think its pretty clear who is going to take-one-up-the-jacksey for the failure at Stormont - if you’ll pardon the imagery.
Kensei,
dont let the feckers grind you down.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 09:12 PMHow about calling that inspirational, what SF did. Otherwise Dr No, would never have jumped what with his decades of negativity in suits all grouped around him. And we would be blogging about Joint Authority being a bunch of..? Yea?
People have been exposed to decades worth of political negativity culminating in legitimised sectarianism, in the year 2008 it’s about time certain factions either moved on emotionally and politically, or do an Iris Robinson. That is if morally it is too much for them then they should just give up office and lobby for change outside of it rather than do nothing within, whenever other people especially at local government level and beyond clearly are doing something together.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 09:14 PMwhy would s.f give any support to a police system that connor murphy described in an phoblact on thursday past as ‘heavy handed and politically inspired’? this so long after they had told their troops that they would ‘put manners’ on the p.s.n.i. does anyone in s.f. actually have any real idea of where they are supposed to be going? i hae me doots!
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 09:40 PMI chanced on “Inside Politics” today and I heard Gerry say something rather strange: “Peter Robinson is the senior partner”. He was referring to the OFMDFM, a ministry of supposed equals.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 09:45 PMkensei
You are starting to believe your party’s own propaganda. SF have been talking up crime in West Belfast to bolster the case for devolution to ‘make things better’ and to justify their own focus on community restorative justice to solve the serious problems in the area. But as the PSNI Annual Report shows
“There were 108,468 crimes recorded by the PSNI in 2007/08 compared with 121,144 in 2006/07, a decrease of 12,676 (-10.5%). Decreases in crime were also achieved across all 8 of the PSNI’s Policing Districts.”
So crime is down overall and down in all policing areas. Crime per capita in NI is also well below that in the rest of the UK.
Undoubtedly there are some serious problems in West Belfast but nowhere near as bad as some would allege.I think there are two factors in this.
First, some of this may of course be displacment therapy. Get people to think about the bogeyman so they don’t dwell too long on other less palatable things, like what the hell was 35 years of murder for?
Second, and even worse, is the issue of perspective. For 30+ years the scum and hoods respected SF (i.e. feared PIRA). That fear is still there but is weakening. If you have been used to being the voice of the community who defines what people think then its a real blow when they all start talking with different voices, including the hoods who may even talk back.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 09:53 PMThere is very little support within the Unionist community for the devolution of P&J;as things stand at present. Personally I think it is much better to let sinn fein continue to fragment over the issue. Just as it was the republican plan to fragment Unionism now we should play the long game and wait until they are torn apart internally over this issue and any others possible.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 10:17 PMIntelligence Insider
a cunning plan....except you may well experience greater ROI influence when Grizzly pulls the plug because the fundamentalist-anti-gay-anti-evolution-democratic-unionist-party will rightly take the blame for the costly decision “to let sinn fein continue to fragment over the issue” as you like to put it.
If the peace process has taught Unionists anything then it should be that when the British are forced to make a choice that normally favours Nationalism.
Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 10:27 PMII
The signs of fragmentation are already there.
In due course some SF voters will see the benefit of remaining in the UK and become unionist.
This will evolve over the next 30/40 years and no one will take seriously talk of U.I.
The union can only get stronger when we think of the great number of people moving from England and Scotland to live here.Posted by on Aug 09, 2008 @ 10:30 PM
