Wednesday, June 21, 2006
Shoukris reject UDA expulsion call
The UTV website is reporting a statement in response to yesterday’s statement from the UDA expelling Andre and Ihab Shoukri. Which provides an answer to the question posed at the end of this assessment of the situation by the BBC’s Vincent Kearney.. to which I’ll just add the two items I noted in the comments on the previous thread - the comments of Judge Burgess at the trial of Ihab Shoukri on the dropping of UDA/UFF membership charges.. and the reported forthcoming meeting between another UDA leader and the President of the Republic of Ireland.
Pete Baker @ 02:10 PM
Garibaldy:
But maybe that was because Stalin had the better moustache.
I can assure you that my moustache is kept in good order by application of some olive oil and an old stiff toothbrush.
On more serious matters, like my close friend Kim Jong-Il, I’m glad I’ve got misguided people like you to apologize for the outrageous crimes I committed when myself and my band of pals appointed ourselves as the post-modern monarchs of a new Russian empire. Please continue your efforts to airbrush my blood-soaked regime.
On the German thing. I think Stalin knew fine rightly war was inevitable, hence the Polish deal, so it would start as far west as possible. This is a major reason why the army was thoroghly purged.
Thank you for the flattery. I always get a warm feeling from being in the company of a kindred spirit who, like myself, shows utter contempt for the intelligence of the general public. Between you and me though, even when my own generals telephoned from the border to tell me that the Germans were bombing our towns, I dismissed it as the work of rogue generals and refused to accept that Hitler was invading our country. As for the purge, by eliminating the experienced military leadership in the Red Army, I prolonged the entire war and grotesquely magnified the bloodshed of my own people, sacrificing millions either to death or the concentration camps. “purge” is my favourite word, but really it was more of a decapitation. Glad I did it too, I managed to hold onto power for decades.
Clearly preparations were being made - all the industry just didn’t move itself so quickly, and the T-34 was designed and sent into mass production for a reason.
My efforts to expand the USSR into Western Europe following the expected downfall of what I hoped would be a short-lived Nazi regime were only partially realized, unfortunately due to the involvement of the Americans, curse them.
After all, the USSR during the period of his leadership transformed itself in an idealistic crusade to create a better future for the whole of humankind. And it had huge successes.
My pioneering application of communism at gunpoint, coupled with an authoritarian and oppressive regime unparalleled by anything else ever seen in the world, ensured that the USSR’s constituent countries are buggered for generations. My greatest legacy is undoubtedly the Chernobyl accident - a disaster which epitomized the state I constructed which lacked the resources, the technical wherewithal, and most of all the respect for the people living in a 100 mile radius, to build nuclear reactors which were safe. Oh yeah, I showed them how to royally fist-fuck a country. Only Kampuchea and the DPRK come close.
These days I still enjoy fucking with the west through my proteges such as Gazprom. It’ll be a long time before they wipe my name from the face of the earth.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 08:03 PMLads, I’m confused. Is Jackie McDonald Stalin and Ihab Shoukri Trotsky? Or is it the other way round? I didn’t realised the UDA were such ideological beings.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 08:36 PMUsurper of Stalin’s name,
firstly, the moustache comment was not me. You’re falsifying history, something the real Uncle Joe would never do.
Do we know whether there were any false reports of invasions before the actual one took place, both from agents in foreign countries or from the border? I suspect that there were, for years in advance. Thomas Bartlett has pointed out that in 1790s Ireland excellent information came into Dublin Castle but there were no means of properly processing it. Perhaps there was something similar at work here.
As for the purges, some purging was clearly necessary, although these things develop a logic of themselves. On the army, we saw what a disaster the lack of a united military was against fascisim in Spain. The Soviet Union, unlike every other country that was invaded, withstood the Nazis, regardless of the winter before anyone mentions it. The Germans had already been held at the key points. Somebody was doing something right in the Red Army.
Show me the evidence Stalin planned a military takeover of western before or after WWII. At the end of the war, with 10s of millions dead, and facing a nuclear armed America that was aggressively anti-Communist, any wonder he sought a buffer zone so any future war would not be fought on Soviet soil.
As for the achievments of the 1920s and 1930s, it’s simply nonsense to say they were extorted from the population. Yes prisoners were forced to do labour (a bit like the US today) but the blindingly obvious fact for anyone who cares to think about it is that the transformation would have been impossible without the active support and participation of the huge majority of the population.
On Chernobyl, so no nuclear accidents in Britain or the US then?
Rather than look at the USSR comparatively, or to try to understand what happened there, just parrot crude propaganda instead.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 08:42 PMfintan
The more interesting analogy was made by Rory earlier - the My Darling Clementine one - although the casting doesn’t quite fit.. Jackie McDonald has been trying to persuade certain people that he’s really auditioning for the Wyatt Earp role… Henry Fonda he is not.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 08:50 PMDread,
The original figure was 250,000, and it’s been steadily rising ever since. As you point out, we’ve now hit the jackpot of 100 million. The fact that this is a biologically impossible figure given Soviet population growth is neither here nor there. I agree though that purges and terror develop their own logic with lots of people suffering who shouldn’t.
See my previous comment for my opinion on the Red Army’s response to the invasion. Same for the support of the Soviet people in the 1920s and 1930s. Over 10 million people died in WWI, there were the invasions and the civil war, and the total isolation by the other powers of the USSR.
Finland declared war on the USSR in 1943 I thought. The liquidation of the Kulaks etc was basically the second round of the civil war, and I look at it in that light. I don’t accept that Stalin was mentally ill any more than I think Bush or Blair are.
The USSR was extremely far from perfect. However, it was responsible for tremendous achievements, and the world as a whole was a better place with it than without it.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 08:54 PMMeanwhile back at the Shoukris, any word on a UDA response to this statement? Did BBC news say that raids were taking place in north Belfast?
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 08:55 PMGaribaldy, you are a laugh. Stalinist condemns Provos with straight face!
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 09:35 PMDoes this mean the McAleese funding package is in the bag for Jackie?!
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 09:58 PMGonzo
That would probably depend on whether Jackie McDonald secures the role, in the media, of Wyatt Earp [as played by Henry Ford] as he clearly wishes to.
That, in turn, would require an adoption of a Hollywoood version of history.. and a deliberate ignorance of current events as detailed by the IMC - and by Vincent Kearney.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:07 PMWhen it’s time to go, it’s time to go and I think Andre and Ihab realise that. I’d be surprised if South-East Antrim do support them as the alleged North Belfast brigade staff members say they do. North Antrim/Londonderry, South, East and West Belfast want change so it’s inevitable as far as I’m concerned...hopefully the North Belfast rank and file find the courage to embrace rather than fight the inevitable.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:15 PMI’m not at all sure that these searches are connected to this particular story, Garibaldy.. ANYway.. PSNI find weapons in city search
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:23 PMNope still can’t my wee head ‘round this
“The only other alternative is for law abiding UDA/UVF members ....”
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:27 PMMeanwhile, the uda foot soldiers continue to poison kids in North Antrim/Londonderry, South, East and West Belfast with drugs.
Progress !!!
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:33 PMDo we know whether there were any false reports of invasions before the actual one took place, both from agents in foreign countries or from the border?
I find your struggle to defend my record in the face of established historical fact to be admirable. Of those who were brave enough to question me (there weren’t many, I made sure of that) I dismissed every single report of the German invasion as a hoax and threatened to shoot those who kept repeating it. When I could delude myself no longer, I refused to accept that Hitler had ordered the invasion and clung to the belief that there was a rogue high up in the German leadership. I declared to Molotov that “we” had “fucked up” Lenin’s great legacy and resigned my leadership and went into hiding. Now, you may consider those to be the actions of a person who anticipated Hitler’s likely future moves, but I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood me.
Perhaps there was something similar at work here.
I particularly admire my supporters who rush to my defence using speculative words like “perhaps”, showing me how their faith in Marx is not daunted even by mere historical fact. But I’m afraid you’re wrong. I had agents infiltrating the Axis in Japan for years before the war, who even told me the launch date for Barbarossa. I rejected their intelligence reports and threatened them all with the death sentence.
As for the purges, some purging was clearly necessary, although these things develop a logic of themselves. On the army, we saw what a disaster the lack of a united military was against fascisim in Spain.
I’m glad you agree with me that ideologically-driven mass killings without trial or right of appeal are the correct way to instil discipline in the military. Perhaps you feel that this is a policy which may be usefully applied in contemporary politics. There is a downside of course, which is that the people who actually know how to run a war are all dead. I didn’t have a clue how to run a military campaign, and I overruled or shot anyone who tried to steer me in the right direction.
Show me the evidence Stalin planned a military takeover of western before or after WWII.
Warehouses full of tanks, and the secret clauses in our wonderful little pact with Ribbentrop.
At the end of the war, with 10s of millions dead, and facing a nuclear armed America that was aggressively anti-Communist,
Of course I didn’t anticipate nuclear weapons. Like everything else in the Soviet Union, we were completely incapable of innovation, and had to wait for the West to come up with the technology first, before we could steal it of course. I remember instructing my nuclear physicists that their equations were anti-democratic and not in line with Marxist thinking. They pointedly replied that without using the equations they could not build a bomb, so of course I waited until they’d finished building it before I had them shot.
Is it any wonder that the world was anti-Communist given the oppression, famines, hunger and mass murder I inflicted on the Russian people ? People in communist regimes so badly wanted to escape, that their oppressive governments had to build walls around them and shoot anyone who tried to leave. Ah, those were the days.
any wonder he sought a buffer zone so any future war would not be fought on Soviet soil.
Quite right too. To hell with the people in the countries I subjugated against their will. I’m glad that, like me, you regard them as little more than a buffer whose rights could be crushed at will.
As for the achievments of the 1920s and 1930s, it’s simply nonsense to say they were extorted from the population.
I like to say that I made the Soviet people an offer they could not refuse.
Yes prisoners were forced to do labour (a bit like the US today)
I’m quite offended by your comparison with the USA. They indeed make their prisoners do labour there, but they also provide a jury trial and an appeals system. I, of course, dispensed with that nonsensical bureaucracy. Moreover, in the USA they make the rather foolish mistake of not jailing people who argue with their wisdom. If anyone criticized me in public I had the NKVD have a quiet word with them. It’s a great shame Nikita let them all out.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:35 PMOn Chernobyl, so no nuclear accidents in Britain or the US then?
Certainly there have. But in the USSR we had a masterstroke. We knew about the operational risks of the reactors we built - but refused to spend the money to put extra containment around them in the event of an explosion. We knew about the particular risks of the RBMK reactor design - but we classed them as a military secret and did not tell the operators about them. And then, during the cleanup, we sent thousands of soldiers, civilians and workers to get rid of the mess, without telling them that we were sending them to their deaths. With Windscale the Brits were very silly, but at least their operators knew how to deal with the problem. At Three Mile Island the containment system stopped a major accident from occurring.
Rather than look at the USSR comparatively, or to try to understand what happened there, just parrot crude propaganda instead.
But you do not even inform yourself of the basic facts. Instead, your desire to apologize for my brutality is so great that you openly admit that you do not even study contemporary accounts of my life’s work.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:40 PMGiven the circles that they move in and how they are feted, I am expecting them to be on I’m a celebrity get me out of here! Or is that just a handy phrase for dodging the criminal justice system?
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:47 PMGaribaldy and Comrade Stalin
The topic of this post has been diverted far enough from the original intent.. I doubt it could go any further.
If you wish to debate [or attempt to revise] the historical record of Stalin perhaps you [collectively] should look to starting a blog dedicated to that objective. This blog.. and this thread.. already have a topic to focus on.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 10:47 PMPete,
Thanks for the info on those searches. I only half heard that bit of the news, that’s why I was asking.
Deerpark Road is close to Westlands. Perhaps this was a move by the police to disarm one of the factions. Or perhaps, as you say, it had nothing to do with it.
I saw Andre in McDonald’s in Newtownabbey once. Wasn’t wearing flash clothes nor driving a fancy car. A bad week at the bookies perhaps.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 11:01 PMPete,
It’s all highly relevant. You see the MI5 officer who dreamed up the UDA was a KGB double agent!
Coinicidentally the Workers Party was funded by Moscow. I wonder is there anyone on this thread who could lend me a few superdollars!?
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 11:02 PM“Coinicidentally the Workers Party was funded by Moscow.”
And is now funded by building rackets, extortion and drug dealing.
Long live the Melting Pot, Cyprus Street & Beechill inn revolution.lol.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 11:11 PMIt will be interesting to see how the paramilitary bands associated!! to the uda will react during the orange order parade on Saturday.
Or is it a uvf parade on Saturday ??
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 11:17 PM“Given the circles that they move in and how they are feted, I am expecting them to be on I’m a celebrity get me out of here!”
How to have tea with the President in two easy steps:
1. Go and murder lots of people. Drug-dealing and extortion optional but may help with your application.
2. Half-heartedly stop said murdering.Note that only sectarian murder will do. Dr Crippen/Jack the Ripper-style murderers need not apply.
Posted by on Jun 21, 2006 @ 11:41 PMPete B
I appreciate your point - but do you not find these spin-off debates pretty interesting?
I would agree if it was just personal abuse (which can happen) but I have found the interjections here pretty stimulating.One last thing (err, sorry Pete) - Garibaldy & Rory - see if you can find a copy of the Great Game by Leopod Trepper. He ran the Red Orchestra Soviet Spy network during WWII inside Nazi Germany and other occupied countries.
A committed communist (no western lackey), he explains in intricate detail what a bloodthirsty incompetent Stalin was.
On the Shoukris - I think Garibaldy was right - there is unlikely to be any long-lasting feud as two individuals, even with some local backing, can’t really compete with the whole UDA organisation. Something akin to the Adair situation will happen.
Posted by on Jun 22, 2006 @ 07:45 AMAs racism is topical just now (see thread on racism in NI), I can’t help wondering have the Shoukris considered taking a case against the UDA for racial disrimination.
Posted by on Jun 22, 2006 @ 11:12 AMHey, Pete, is was as much me as Garibaldy and CS… mayhaps more. Mea Culpa.
Now, as for the Shoukri bros.
andy: “On the Shoukris - I think Garibaldy was right - there is unlikely to be any long-lasting feud as two individuals, even with some local backing, can’t really compete with the whole UDA organisation. Something akin to the Adair situation will happen. “
So what does this mean, andy—there will only a couple shootings and “trailer trash” -esque pictures this summer and not an all out fraticidal war between the various “commands” of the UDA? Like that’s a “good” thing?
Posted by on Jun 22, 2006 @ 08:10 PM
